Do you reload?

If you don't it's hard to get the most out of it. The factory loads are light to keep someone from blowing apart an old rifle.

The Hornady FTX shoot VERY well in mine. I get around 250 fps more out of my handloads than the factory LeverRevolution ammo in my gun.

Some folks like the 405 or better flat nose cast bullets, I didn't like them or the mess the bullet lube made.

Edit: I shot a black tail at 295 yards and an elk at 10 yards with 300 grain hollow point factory loads. Both died on the spot. Deer was a decent hole complete pass through, elk bullet was just on the backside of the hide.

 

In modern guns I shoot a hard cast 400 grain @ between 1800 & 2200 fps, in older guns like original Sharps or Rem rolling blocks I use a softer 1 in 30 cast 500 grain @ 11-1300 fps.:twocents:

 

If your rifle is modern, check out the Buffalo Bore, Grizzley, or Cor-Bon unless you reload.

 

Be careful using the 300-grain hollowpoints on elk. I had a hand-loaded Remington fragment on the spine of a small muley at about 50 yards. It broke his back but did not even pass through the spine.

 

My buddy shot a bear clean through the front shoulders. Found a jacket fragment in the gut cavity while looking for the female organs that the state requires. I don't think the 405 Remington hollow points are a good bullet for large game.

 

4-500 grain hard cast at moderate velocity...1,400 fps or less. These will knock elk off their feet. If you don't cast, look at beartooth bullets on the internet. Get .460 diameter. You can push the 400 grains a lot faster, but you wont shoot many of them. Shoulder gets to be like hamburger. Invest in a good shoulder pad. Get a peep sight and remove the one on the barrel. Williams peeps or Skinner peeps. As your eyes get older, they will appreciate the peep sights.

 

IMO the 300 grainers are to light for hunting in the modern .45-70, I'll go further in that the jacketed slugs offer no advantage over cast slugs of the proper temper. PS I did play around with some slugs that were jacketed with wood cores & was able to exceed 3,600 fps but none would make it on to a 4' sq target @ 100 yds.:twocents:

 

I like the Remington 405gr JSP at 1800fps. Puts Mr.Elk down just fine. However, unless you start reloading, I don't think your going to find much off the shelf. PMC used to make the best load, (350gr @1900fps), but I think they stopped selling it a couple years back. I'm talking Guide Gun.

Hardcast bullets are 1/2" hole drillers. They give the best penetration but mediocre wound cavity. Remington 300gr JHP is not for Elk, but the 300gr Nosler is. I'm not a fan of the 500+gr stuff as I don't have a need for that much penetration.

 

Last Saturday I shot 40 rounds of 405 grain Rem factory ammo from my new Marlin Guide Gun. The advertised velocity is 1300 fps. Actual velocity was around 1000 fps.

350+ grain hard case flat nosed bullets have a reputation for making large wound channels. Because of that, I have on order 405 and 420 grain hard cast bullets from Cast Performance, an Oregon company. I should get between 1850 and 1950 fps fr the 420 grainers and 1900-2000 fps for the 405s. 350s would probably get 2000-2100 fps, but Cast Performance doesn't offer any.

If you can't handload, Grizzly Cartridge is owned by the same parent company and they offer loaded ammo with their hard cast bullets.

 

What are you guys using a 45-70 for in Oregon? Deer, elk or those tiny little bears? My buddy carries a 45-70 for brown bears up here in AK. Just seems like overkill for anything in the lower 48? I assume (though can't attest to) that there would be crazy meat damage?

I'm not a "small caliber" guy, but it seems that a 130 grain Triple-Shock from a .270 is fine for anything Oregon has to offer.

 

Quick answer 'cause we can, I guess the longer version could be a bit of nostalgia, fun, is effective on big game @ the ranges that 90% are shot within & beyond, it never gets smaller & you do not need to rely on expansion like you do with a small bore high velocity cartridge, its built in guns that carry easy. And those aren't enough its a good deal more practical than my .505 Gibbs or H&H paradox guns.:doh:

 

Thanks alot for all the information...I guess I just need to test some rounds to see how they operate...I like the heavy bullets for thicker areas....Good info all the way around....

 

Although the wound channel is large, you can eat right up to the edge. Those large flat nose bullets create shock without terrible blood shot and meat damage.

 

There are several companies that offer hot loads for the 45-70 which are equivalent to the .458 Winchester Magnum, It is a neat cartridge as it can be loaded down for Deer, with several loadings available including Hornadys LeveRevolution, it is becoming increasingly popular, not bad for a cartridge that has been around since 1873! As far as the best load, that would depend on if you are targeting Deer or Cape Buffalo, as several of them have been taken with the Marlin Model 1895 levergun.

 

:yeahthat::agree:

 

The old Speer 350 grain flat nose is a tough and accurate bullet that expands less than the 405 grain Remingtons and pushes through bone and penetrates deeper. It's a great "all around" bullet in a .45-70 when loaded to between 1700-2100fps. It hammers elk with complete penetration and doesn't begin to expand on deer so you get a neat 0.5 inch hole ...and a dead deer, with minimal bloodshot meat. That slug also held up well at 2500fps in a .458 Winny that I had.

 

You must have a heavy 270. I am struggling to get my Guide Gun down to the 7.5 lb weight of my 300 WSM.

 

Random thoughts on "levers" -The 1886 Extralight is just under 7.5lbs; cutting the barrel to 18.5" might get you to 7 lbs. The BLR in .450 Marlin is 7lbs and in .358Win. it's 6.5lbs. The 325WSM in the BLR would be a hammer near and far at 6.75lbs. The guide gun looks more like a real levergun should, but the fore end could be trimmed up some as the wood is much thicker than necessary and a lighter weight barrel could be used. Why can't Marlin's bbl and foreend be more of the configuration of the 1886? Yeah, recoil is an issue but I'd take the tradeoff in a hunting rifle as you carry them a lot more than you shoot them.

 

I don't want to rile up the .270 fans, or get too far off the subject of the 45-70, but don't forget the late great Elmer Keith touted the .270 as a "Marginal Coyote Round" it's a bit more than that however definitely not a good choice for Moose.

 

Facts do often sound comical to the uniformed. BTW, why does a bow hunter stick his nose in a rifle thread, especially after he says he's leaving?

The only experience you seem to have with the 45-70 is from your buddy. I could see getting his input on this thread, but you have no reason to post here.

 

Facts do often sound comical to the uniformed. BTW, why does a bow hunter stick his nose in a rifle thread, especially after he says he's leaving?

The only experience you seem to have with the 45-70 is from your buddy. I could see getting his input on this thread, but you have no reason to post here.

Uninformed? Dude, we can start throwing numbers back and forth if you want? I hunted with rifles for 15 years before I made the switch to archery about 5 years ago. I still have, and semi-regularly use all of my rifles (of which there are many). You and I both know, and all the other "informed" people in this thread, that when you look at the facts a 45-70 is adequate for very large game...that can kill you. Like I said above, I was just surprised that people were using them for deer and elk? It seems like a BIG round, but to each his own. Shorthair made a GREAT post as to why to use this caliber, and aside from your "stomping your feet" that elk are tougher than moosealm:, you made a good point too. Wanna leave it at that?

I love my 45-70, it's a seriously fun gun to shoot, and with a few mods the Marlin 1895 makes an adequate bear protection gun, allowing a guy to send a lot of lead down range relatively quickly. Glad you like it too. Adios. I'm leaving Maui today and headed back to the land of the midnight sun!:doh:

 

For the record I haven't killed a moose (I apply for tags every year) but I've talked with folks that have taken a lot of them as well as elk. From talking with them and reading accounts from many big game hunters/writers over 40 years it's a pretty well established fact that moose are easier to kill than elk. While moose don't seem to go to far when hit and followup shots are typically possible, an elk can often go a long way, miles sometimes, with what should have been good bullet placement in the vitals. In the pouring rain in the west side dark timber you don't want your elk to go far, as you might lose it or it might sour before you find it. While the .270 is okay for the classic "behind the shoulder", broadside, double-lung shot, heavier calibers that make bigger holes and hit harder do a better job on the bad angles in the timber. In the coastal jungles I want my elk to go not more than 3 feet after the shot...straight down. Using small calibers will increase the risk of eventually losing a nice elk or finding it a day or 2 later; that shouldn't be anybody's idea of fun. Big-bores don't guarantee quicker kills but do reduce the likelyhood. Yes, shot placement is important, but a bull unintentionally hit a little too far back with a .338 Win. Mag. or a heavily loaded 45-70 WILL be a whole lot sicker and not likely go as far as with the same hit from a .270. I'm not knocking the .270 as I shoot one a lot, but I'm well aware of what it will...and won't do. The .270 works a bit better in open country or clear cuts where you're more likely get follow up opportunities if the first shot doesn't go as planned. Big bores with heavy bullets really shine in the dark timber on elk.

 

I killed a fair number of deer with the 270 back in the days of covered wagons and dinosaurs using crappy Sierra 130gr bullets. Those bullets would penetrate about 2" and come apart, making a gigantic mess. You never, ever, shot close to anything you wanted to eat.

Fast forward a lot of years: There are a number of really good 130gr offerings today that will hold together nicely. I tested a Hornady that peeled back nearly .7" wide and almost flat. I believe that the .270 is more than adequate for Elk.

There are way too many guys today who think Elk are armor-plated, so they buy some SCREAMINGMAGNUMDEATHRAY rifle and then find (a) it's expensive and (b) no fun to shoot. So they shoot 1/2 box from a bench and carry the rest for hunting. Then they make a bad shot on a 800lb Rosey, watch it run off, and then post on this forum about how it likely survived.

Frankly I get tired of magnumitis stupidity. The 270, chambered in an 8lb rifle, is an easy and cheap to shoot caliber. And it is much more important to learn to shoot, than what cartridge you're packing.

Now the 45-70 chambered Guide Gun is NOT easy to shoot, nor is it cheap if you don't reload. That little sucker will kick the crap out of you if you don't know how to properly mount a rifle. I reload, so the cost of the 2500 rounds or so I've put down range isn't a big deal. And you better have a range finder with you and have memorized your ballistics if you want to shoot past 200 yds. And NO, you can't flatten the trajectory out by loading it hot, so don't even bother.

What the Guide Gun is - is a sweet packing carbine. It weighs 7lbs. As long as you don't lard it up with a scope, it remains a joy to carry one handed. My loads give me a MPBR of 150yds - which is plenty when you are "hunting" (not just shooting), and a minimum wound diameter of .458" with the cheapest of bullets. I have a Williams peep and firesight combo, with a brass upholstery tack for a kisser button on the stock. Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad. And I wear a strap on shoulder pad during practice.

IF I were someplace where bitey/scratchy critters were the norm and a .375H&H with 270gr SPs was considered acceptable, I would feel comfortable with the GG stoked with the 405gr JSP @1800fps - because the two cartridges have identical momentum and produce identical wound cavities at close range. And of course I can always shoot 500+gr hardcast which give penetration from nose to prostate on Buf.

 

If you're not using a cast slug you are not feeling the full benefit of this grand old cartridge, I use 400-435 grains in my levers & up to 560 in the single-shots.:twocents:

 

I would like to try them again in mine, but I HATE the mess the bullet lube makes. The brass ends up nasty, my gun ends up nasty, I just don't like it. Are you casting your own or buying them done? Are there any hard-cast pre-lubed that don't make such a mess? (I have only used laser-cast)

 

My guide gun needs .460" diameter cast to shoot well. Either that or gaschecked. You can get unsized, unlubed 405gr fodder from Oregon Trail and tumble lube them yourself - very easy. The unsized, unlubed fodder I last bought from OT was right .461" - chambered and shot fine. If you get a lube doughnut at on the muzzle crown then your size and lube are working right.

 

Altough I am new to the 45-70 (sort of), for years I have read about the performance of hard cast, flat nosed, lead bullets between 350-420 grain at muzzle velocities between 1800 and 2100 fps. Those flat nose non-deforming bullets create wound channels similar to a medium sized expanding bullet and they penetrate extremely well. The key is you need a wide, flat nose to create maximum fluid disruption to get the big wound channels, especially on heavy game.

IIRC, the 350-420 grainers at the above velocities produce killing power in the 338 Win - 375 H&H range at distances under 150 yds.

The problem with expanding bullets that start at 45 caliber is they expand to such a large frontal area that it takes more momentum that a 45-70 can muster to really penetrate well on large game. Or so that is the theory. I would imagine the new Hornady Monoflex bullet may solve that, at least if the made it in a 325 or 350 grainer.

 

Nope. Cast drill 1/2" holes. Nothing more.

Don't waste money on fancy bullets.

 

..

 

BTW, I am not really that intense on this topic, but was just in the mood to argue........

 

To the corner with you...& don't come out 'til you have loaded all the MT brass in the house.