I made the mistake and don't want you to pay the price. I decided to go explore some new water and fish the Pipe line hole on the Sandy and possibly look at some holes even farther down if it was o.k. :shrug: I talked to several other anglers that assured me that the access to the Pipe line via the road and trails accoss the bridge from Dodge Park was resolved and access approved. By whom? Several told me the water bureau specifically stated they had easement rights ect....blah blah blah... OK sounded good at the time and was encouraging. :angel: Really I had no intention to break the law. But unfortunately early Monday on the way out I was interecepted by Oregon State Patrol. This was when I was informed I was tresspassing on the Campfire Girls property. He took my information that was going to be supplied to the camp manager who would decide if a citation would be issued! :bigshock: Yikes!!! I did not want to tell the wife :help: I was given the name and phone number of the camp manager and called to discuss the error of my actions but never recieved a return call. I emailed the Directors of the park Namanu :idea: and the responded very quickly. I was very relieved when they stated they would contact the manager to make sure I did not recieve a citation which I expressed my appreciation. When I asked about future access I was denied and told that they are looking for a solution but right now it is a tresspass. I feel lucky and wonder if the dozen or more guys fishing down there got tickets :shrug: The directors told me they are considering the Oregon Fish Club as the solution. The park manager did call me (he was out of town) and stated that this infraction would be treated as a warning but he told me directly that if OSP wrote the citations he was going to sign them. I asked him about permission for access and he said at this time no one is being given permission so everyone who is on the property will be considered a tresspasser. I decided to post this because I don't want any of you good honest ifishers get convinced that it is OK to fish that property. Both parties did make it clear that if the fishing holes were accessed by boat that it was O.K to be on the property to the high water mark.
Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access denied!!
fish stalker
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
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3,396 Posts
Just the reason to support the NW Steelheaders right to river access!!
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5,935 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
....or buy a driftboat. I refuse to pay thousands of dollars just to fish a few OFC holes when a driftboat or toon will get me to the same places.
....or buy a driftboat. I refuse to pay thousands of dollars just to fish a few OFC holes when a driftboat or toon will get me to the same places.
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8,861 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
"pay thousands of dollars "
I believe that statement is a little misleading.
Thousands of Dollars is a lot exaggerated.
Furthermore OFC is an outstanding organization, to the members as well as to the land owners.
"pay thousands of dollars "
I believe that statement is a little misleading.
Thousands of Dollars is a lot exaggerated.
Furthermore OFC is an outstanding organization, to the members as well as to the land owners.
Joined
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5,935 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
If your someone who likes the lakes and camping and all I can see why it might be worth it. For someone like me who just wants to fish a few local rivers I'll spend a few hundred on a toon and fish those sections for free..that's all.
For a 5 year gig it's thousands of dollars Ab, about $2300 to be exact. By your mentioning OFC in so many of your posts it's obvious that it's well worth it to you and that's fine - either that or your peddling memberships :grin:
If your someone who likes the lakes and camping and all I can see why it might be worth it. For someone like me who just wants to fish a few local rivers I'll spend a few hundred on a toon and fish those sections for free..that's all.
Joined
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8,861 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
It's sad to think about the situation with our rivers around here. I don't think I am so much trying to promote OFC as I am trying to defend it. Depending on how you look at it it may seem expensive. But it is a mistake to blame OFC for managing some of the properties that have problems and they are a well managed Organization.
In effect you are paying for your right to fish on public land. Lisence, tags etc. not to mentions boats and gear.''
The club offers many ways to pay monthly dues including monthy work parties. Essentially you could go a whole year without making a payment.
But getting back to the problem with the Pipeline hole, don't you see it coming ? We are losing more and more places to fish all the time. Who's fault is that ? and what else can we do about it ?
I know it Sucks but what can we do ?
Fish in groups and confront the people that are pigs ?
Work with law authorities about it ?
Why not get a bunch of fisherman together and bring the issues to the local autorities. Ask what we as fisheman can do to help preserve our rights.
It's not fair that a couple of idiots can get valuable land closed off the the rest of us that respect the outdoors.
It's sad to think about the situation with our rivers around here. I don't think I am so much trying to promote OFC as I am trying to defend it. Depending on how you look at it it may seem expensive. But it is a mistake to blame OFC for managing some of the properties that have problems and they are a well managed Organization.
In effect you are paying for your right to fish on public land. Lisence, tags etc. not to mentions boats and gear.''
The club offers many ways to pay monthly dues including monthy work parties. Essentially you could go a whole year without making a payment.
But getting back to the problem with the Pipeline hole, don't you see it coming ? We are losing more and more places to fish all the time. Who's fault is that ? and what else can we do about it ?
I know it Sucks but what can we do ?
Fish in groups and confront the people that are pigs ?
Work with law authorities about it ?
Why not get a bunch of fisherman together and bring the issues to the local autorities. Ask what we as fisheman can do to help preserve our rights.
It's not fair that a couple of idiots can get valuable land closed off the the rest of us that respect the outdoors.
Joined
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1,466 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
Attorney General's Opinion on Ownership of Oregon Waterways.
http://www.doj.state.or.us/AGOffice/agopinions/OP_8281.pdf
Oregon Department of State Lands on ownership of Waterways
http://statelands.dsl.state.or.us/whoownsthewaterways.htm
The National Rivers Wesite
www.nors.org/us-law-facts.htm
NW Steelheaders on River Rights
http://www.nwsteelheaders.org/river_access_navigability.htm
Oregon River Rights
www.oregonriverrights.com
Attorney General's Opinion on Ownership of Oregon Waterways.
http://www.doj.state.or.us/AGOffice/agopinions/OP_8281.pdf
Oregon Department of State Lands on ownership of Waterways
http://statelands.dsl.state.or.us/whoownsthewaterways.htm
The National Rivers Wesite
www.nors.org/us-law-facts.htm
NW Steelheaders on River Rights
http://www.nwsteelheaders.org/river_access_navigability.htm
Oregon River Rights
www.oregonriverrights.com
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1,222 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
And here's the response from the camp CEO:
Dan,
Thanks for your thoughtful email. Yes, we are trying to develop a new, clear system to address these issues. In the past (prior to my tenure as CEO), we adopted a kind of bunker mentality that A) was not effective and B) didn’t win us any friends. In more recent years, we have tried the “good neighbor” approach, adopting a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” technique. In other words, we hoped to minimize trespassing as much as possible, but for those people who ended up on our banks, we asked simply that they respect our need to keep our kids/clients safe, and maintain a generally respectful approach to their activities. While this worked for many folks, it didn’t work for all (the old “bad apple” adage, alas, holds true here). In recent years, my staff have been threatened with violence and weapons, we have had drug use on our shores, endless garbage, nudity, drinking, smoking, and the errant firing of weapons.
A few months ago, we convened a small group of anglers to try and seek a solution. It had become time intensive for us to manage this situation, and was distracting from our core mission of youth development. Attendees at the meeting were all kind, thoughtful, and practical. A few urged us to keep the site open; some suggested managed alternatives; a handful said, were it them, they’d shut down all access. The most telling comment came from one angler to another (who happened to be advocating for access). The comment was, “What would you do if this was your backyard?” The clear implication was that no one there would tolerate this kind of trespassing in their yard on their private property (nor would they even consider public access), yet many hoped we would do so in ours. The double-standard struck home.
Long story short Dan, we are finalizing an agreement with the Oregon Fishing Club. It is not a done-deal yet, but it’s nearly so. I recognize this will make many anglers unhappy, and for some the cost will be prohibitive. However, it is the closest we can come to a win/win solution. The win for us is two-fold. First, we can develop clear and legal parameters for fishing access (OFC membership only) that allow us to focus on our core business, kids. The second is that we can continue to share a gorgeous stretch of river with anglers and neighbors through the OFC program. It may not be perfect, but to my mind it is the sole viable approach b/w unfettered access and absolute shut-down.
Stay tuned for more information. I plan to draft a more formal letter and post it to a variety of fishing web sites, as well as our web site.
I would welcome your thoughts and feedback and, certainly, your help in spreading this message to interested parties. You have my permission to forward this email, as well as an encouragement to check our website in the next few weeks at www.portlandcampfire.org for a more comprehensive letter.
With appreciation for your understanding and tolerance throughout,
Keith Thomajan
Executive Director
Camp Fire USA Portland Metro Council
619 SW 11th Ave., Suite 200
Portland, OR 97205
503.224.7800, x. 151
503.223.3916
And here's the response from the camp CEO:
Dan,
Thanks for your thoughtful email. Yes, we are trying to develop a new, clear system to address these issues. In the past (prior to my tenure as CEO), we adopted a kind of bunker mentality that A) was not effective and B) didn’t win us any friends. In more recent years, we have tried the “good neighbor” approach, adopting a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” technique. In other words, we hoped to minimize trespassing as much as possible, but for those people who ended up on our banks, we asked simply that they respect our need to keep our kids/clients safe, and maintain a generally respectful approach to their activities. While this worked for many folks, it didn’t work for all (the old “bad apple” adage, alas, holds true here). In recent years, my staff have been threatened with violence and weapons, we have had drug use on our shores, endless garbage, nudity, drinking, smoking, and the errant firing of weapons.
A few months ago, we convened a small group of anglers to try and seek a solution. It had become time intensive for us to manage this situation, and was distracting from our core mission of youth development. Attendees at the meeting were all kind, thoughtful, and practical. A few urged us to keep the site open; some suggested managed alternatives; a handful said, were it them, they’d shut down all access. The most telling comment came from one angler to another (who happened to be advocating for access). The comment was, “What would you do if this was your backyard?” The clear implication was that no one there would tolerate this kind of trespassing in their yard on their private property (nor would they even consider public access), yet many hoped we would do so in ours. The double-standard struck home.
Long story short Dan, we are finalizing an agreement with the Oregon Fishing Club. It is not a done-deal yet, but it’s nearly so. I recognize this will make many anglers unhappy, and for some the cost will be prohibitive. However, it is the closest we can come to a win/win solution. The win for us is two-fold. First, we can develop clear and legal parameters for fishing access (OFC membership only) that allow us to focus on our core business, kids. The second is that we can continue to share a gorgeous stretch of river with anglers and neighbors through the OFC program. It may not be perfect, but to my mind it is the sole viable approach b/w unfettered access and absolute shut-down.
Stay tuned for more information. I plan to draft a more formal letter and post it to a variety of fishing web sites, as well as our web site.
I would welcome your thoughts and feedback and, certainly, your help in spreading this message to interested parties. You have my permission to forward this email, as well as an encouragement to check our website in the next few weeks at www.portlandcampfire.org for a more comprehensive letter.
With appreciation for your understanding and tolerance throughout,
Keith Thomajan
Executive Director
Camp Fire USA Portland Metro Council
619 SW 11th Ave., Suite 200
Portland, OR 97205
503.224.7800, x. 151
503.223.3916
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
I agree, it is private land, much like the old Maple Leaf hole on the Trask. It hurts, but they do have a business and children to protect. How many "creeps" have you run across fishing? I would suggest to leave the hole alone, join the OFC ( kinda like buying a boat), or make friends with the director. Good luck!
I agree, it is private land, much like the old Maple Leaf hole on the Trask. It hurts, but they do have a business and children to protect. How many "creeps" have you run across fishing? I would suggest to leave the hole alone, join the OFC ( kinda like buying a boat), or make friends with the director. Good luck!
Joined
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23,212 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
This is good reason for the actions of the property manager.
Protecting the children should always come first.
I have been on the river when I was not confortable because of the people I met there. Most fishers I have met on the river are real nice guys.
However some real scum share our fishing holes and I would not want them around my grand children.
Kids first...............Find another hole. Easy for me to say. I dont fish the Sandy.
This is good reason for the actions of the property manager.
Protecting the children should always come first.
I have been on the river when I was not confortable because of the people I met there. Most fishers I have met on the river are real nice guys.
However some real scum share our fishing holes and I would not want them around my grand children.
Kids first...............Find another hole. Easy for me to say. I dont fish the Sandy.
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6,618 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
More public access lost. Let's just skip the slow death to free public access to publicly owned fish and go right to a system like they have in Great Briton where only the wealthy will be able to fish for salmon and steelhead, with trout to follow. It just gets worse and worse each year, it's depressing. Does anyone besides me think that the way things are going do to overcrowding at the few remaining public fishing access points that people will just quit buying the licenses? Perhaps outfits like OFC need to start paying a share of their take into the system for the fish they are blocking our access to. I'm tired of paying through licenses and tackle sur charges for fish that I have less and less acces to.
Not that anyone really cares, some day I may just slip away with my money when I quit paying into the public fishing system.
Ramble/Rant over.
Smj
More public access lost. Let's just skip the slow death to free public access to publicly owned fish and go right to a system like they have in Great Briton where only the wealthy will be able to fish for salmon and steelhead, with trout to follow. It just gets worse and worse each year, it's depressing. Does anyone besides me think that the way things are going do to overcrowding at the few remaining public fishing access points that people will just quit buying the licenses? Perhaps outfits like OFC need to start paying a share of their take into the system for the fish they are blocking our access to. I'm tired of paying through licenses and tackle sur charges for fish that I have less and less acces to.
Not that anyone really cares, some day I may just slip away with my money when I quit paying into the public fishing system.
Ramble/Rant over.
Smj
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
SMJ, the pigs will keep buying fishing licenses. It's cheap entertainment for them even though they are not serious fisherman. It's a place where they can do a little drinking, blow a little smoke, and relax.
If you want quality fishing you are going to have to pay the tab.
I don't go to the popular holes because the company I find around there is frankly, more than a little scary. I'm not loooking for any encounters with that group.
SMJ, the pigs will keep buying fishing licenses. It's cheap entertainment for them even though they are not serious fisherman. It's a place where they can do a little drinking, blow a little smoke, and relax.
If you want quality fishing you are going to have to pay the tab.
I don't go to the popular holes because the company I find around there is frankly, more than a little scary. I'm not loooking for any encounters with that group.
Joined
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1,222 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
Unfortunately I believe this is completely out of our hands as it largely is the rif-raf and not the fisherman causing the problem. Confronting these individuals will only create further problems.
Best options:
**Work with Oregon Fishing Club
**Work with State Police
Unfortunately I believe this is completely out of our hands as it largely is the rif-raf and not the fisherman causing the problem. Confronting these individuals will only create further problems.
Best options:
**Work with Oregon Fishing Club
**Work with State Police
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
More public access lost??? My understanding was this hole was already lost to public access. OFC is not the cause of this loss. As far as "start paying a share of their take into the system", what exactly do you mean. I still need and pay for the same licenses and tags you do. I buy the same gear and pay my share of taxes. I simply choose to pay $400 a year to avoid combat fishing. I had all but given up on Salmom and Steelhead before I found OFC. If not for them, I would be spending nearly nothing on gear and bait.
Joined
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8,793 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
They dont own the water below the high water mark. the sandy is a public river. What gives them the right to close accsess to public ground??? Am I missing something??? if this is not taken care of every fishing hole on the sandy will soon follow the same fait. you can Bank on it. the are already talks of simmilar things with the sandy river home owners Ass. I think after the dam is gone the fishing is going to get really good (7 years ) and the home owners will be chargeing big money for acsses. I have seen it happen before Any thoughts or am I missing something??
They dont own the water below the high water mark. the sandy is a public river. What gives them the right to close accsess to public ground??? Am I missing something??? if this is not taken care of every fishing hole on the sandy will soon follow the same fait. you can Bank on it. the are already talks of simmilar things with the sandy river home owners Ass. I think after the dam is gone the fishing is going to get really good (7 years ) and the home owners will be chargeing big money for acsses. I have seen it happen before Any thoughts or am I missing something??
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6,439 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
It's true the river is public up to the high water mark, but you have to get to it first (public park, boat launch, permission from a riparian landowner, or something like that). Crossing private property to reach the bank is still trespassing. Once you're in, though, you can go up or down river legally as long as you stay below MHW (with exceptions for portaging).
It's true the river is public up to the high water mark, but you have to get to it first (public park, boat launch, permission from a riparian landowner, or something like that). Crossing private property to reach the bank is still trespassing. Once you're in, though, you can go up or down river legally as long as you stay below MHW (with exceptions for portaging).
Joined
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8,861 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
Stop and think for a minute:
Here's what I keep wondering about.
WHERE IS OUR POLICE PROTECTION ?
I am sick of hearing: We have to cut the budget that means Cut police.
Yep ! We are losing our treasured resources because of a few bad guys. If you want it to stop we are going to have to take a pro-active approach.
We need to organize in a way to protect what we have.
Instead of sitting back and watching it all vanish lets
start doing something today.
Lets get some law enforcement people together, have a
meeting and find out how we as citizens can act with the
landowners to protect what we have.
With Cell phones there is no reason why we can't summons
the police when we encounter, Snaggers, drunks,and Trash throwing morons.
It seems to me that too many of us just sit there and let it happen.
Guardian Angles of the outdoors ? Perhaps, But I don't think so.
We need a voice. We need a voice to tell our autorities it's thier Job to protect us.
I am a member of OFC and I am just a P.O.ed about this as you are. You have been out there and you have seen this crap. There should be no doubt in anyones minds about where this state is headed ? "No hunting No fishing" No tresspassing.
I have no doubt there is a positive solution to fixing this problem.
Let the idiots know we aren't going to tolerate their bad behavior anymore.
I would like to read a post:
Went fishing today and found a guy snagging. We grabbed his rod and broke it, Then we picked him up and threw him in the river. SOB won't be back again.
:jester:
Stop and think for a minute:
Here's what I keep wondering about.
WHERE IS OUR POLICE PROTECTION ?
I am sick of hearing: We have to cut the budget that means Cut police.
Yep ! We are losing our treasured resources because of a few bad guys. If you want it to stop we are going to have to take a pro-active approach.
We need to organize in a way to protect what we have.
Instead of sitting back and watching it all vanish lets
start doing something today.
Lets get some law enforcement people together, have a
meeting and find out how we as citizens can act with the
landowners to protect what we have.
With Cell phones there is no reason why we can't summons
the police when we encounter, Snaggers, drunks,and Trash throwing morons.
It seems to me that too many of us just sit there and let it happen.
Guardian Angles of the outdoors ? Perhaps, But I don't think so.
We need a voice. We need a voice to tell our autorities it's thier Job to protect us.
I am a member of OFC and I am just a P.O.ed about this as you are. You have been out there and you have seen this crap. There should be no doubt in anyones minds about where this state is headed ? "No hunting No fishing" No tresspassing.
I have no doubt there is a positive solution to fixing this problem.
Let the idiots know we aren't going to tolerate their bad behavior anymore.
I would like to read a post:
Went fishing today and found a guy snagging. We grabbed his rod and broke it, Then we picked him up and threw him in the river. SOB won't be back again.
:jester:
Joined
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1,158 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
I have mixed feeling about this. Clearly there is a problem on the Sandy River downstream of Dodge Park. The last time I was there, two seperate campers had tents set up on the river. The first was at the Pipeline Hole and the other was at the Sand Hole. Neither party was fishing. They were there just to camp. Near as I could tell, they were camping inside the high water mark so their activity was "okay". But they also accessed those places by crossing Girl Scout property. Which may not be okay.
But the problems are not caused by access. The problem is the activities associated with access. We've all seen the problems associated with campers (beer cans, behavior, trash, etc) and anglers (ditto). Eliminating access will help but it will only deter (but not stop) those without a boat. They can post the land but they can't post the river. The problems associated with bad behavior and trash are not all caused by anglers on foot. They are also caused by anglers and camper in boats. They can't stop that. So selling out to OFC may not solve the problem.
I'm not a member of OFC, but I am considering joining. I disagree with the idea of private access ($$) to public resources (salmon) but it's getting to the point where it's either OFC or combat fishing. Niether is very appealing.
I continue to believe that both Oregon and Washington DFW's are seriously lacking in a comprehensive program of providing fishing access to the public, particularly in high pressure rivers like the Clack, the Sandy the NF Lewis, and the Cowlitz. I'm not blaming ODFW for this problem but why can't they help provide a solution?
I have mixed feeling about this. Clearly there is a problem on the Sandy River downstream of Dodge Park. The last time I was there, two seperate campers had tents set up on the river. The first was at the Pipeline Hole and the other was at the Sand Hole. Neither party was fishing. They were there just to camp. Near as I could tell, they were camping inside the high water mark so their activity was "okay". But they also accessed those places by crossing Girl Scout property. Which may not be okay.
But the problems are not caused by access. The problem is the activities associated with access. We've all seen the problems associated with campers (beer cans, behavior, trash, etc) and anglers (ditto). Eliminating access will help but it will only deter (but not stop) those without a boat. They can post the land but they can't post the river. The problems associated with bad behavior and trash are not all caused by anglers on foot. They are also caused by anglers and camper in boats. They can't stop that. So selling out to OFC may not solve the problem.
I'm not a member of OFC, but I am considering joining. I disagree with the idea of private access ($$) to public resources (salmon) but it's getting to the point where it's either OFC or combat fishing. Niether is very appealing.
I continue to believe that both Oregon and Washington DFW's are seriously lacking in a comprehensive program of providing fishing access to the public, particularly in high pressure rivers like the Clack, the Sandy the NF Lewis, and the Cowlitz. I'm not blaming ODFW for this problem but why can't they help provide a solution?
Joined
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8,861 Posts
Re: Sandy River - Pipeline and below - access deni
I feel very strongly about this issue:
Consider..
You have read the letter from the land owner and you understand the concerns.
What options do they have ?
Now ! What is OFC going to do ? How are they going to deal with the problem ?
OFC did not create the problem. OFC provides a service to the Landowners as well as to it's Members.
Basically they will baby sit the River Bank for the owners. They are no more empowered to do that then you or I are.
In short. If you go onto that property and you are not a member or part of the orginization that owns the property,
you will be arrested.
OFC accepts the responsibilty for protecting that property.
Why can't YOU and I do the same ?
Because no one wants to bother.... That's why..
When was it the last time you saw a person Snagging a fish, Throwing Trash or Running Naked you called the police ?
or confronted them.
These morons do it because they can. No one will stop them. We have gone from " It's a Free Country "
To " Screw you, I can do anything I want " Society.
Don't tolerate bad behavior. Call the police. Let every scum bag in the State know that this is our State and Slobs
aren't tolerated.
I know there will be people testing the law regarding access to this site.
It won't take long and it should be obvious to everyone what the deal is.
Intead of thinking about the Pipeline hole you better be thinking about the next place.
This is a community issue and we are all part of the Community.
I feel very strongly about this issue:
Consider..
You have read the letter from the land owner and you understand the concerns.
What options do they have ?
Now ! What is OFC going to do ? How are they going to deal with the problem ?
OFC did not create the problem. OFC provides a service to the Landowners as well as to it's Members.
Basically they will baby sit the River Bank for the owners. They are no more empowered to do that then you or I are.
In short. If you go onto that property and you are not a member or part of the orginization that owns the property,
you will be arrested.
OFC accepts the responsibilty for protecting that property.
Why can't YOU and I do the same ?
Because no one wants to bother.... That's why..
When was it the last time you saw a person Snagging a fish, Throwing Trash or Running Naked you called the police ?
or confronted them.
These morons do it because they can. No one will stop them. We have gone from " It's a Free Country "
To " Screw you, I can do anything I want " Society.
Don't tolerate bad behavior. Call the police. Let every scum bag in the State know that this is our State and Slobs
aren't tolerated.
I know there will be people testing the law regarding access to this site.
It won't take long and it should be obvious to everyone what the deal is.
Intead of thinking about the Pipeline hole you better be thinking about the next place.
This is a community issue and we are all part of the Community.
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