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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.solarbuzz.com/News/NewsNAPR877.htm

I am no expert, but I did see this on line while at a Holiday Inn Express.

This sure seems like this company has plans on generating a lot of alternative power to me. It also represents a whole lot of zeros to the left of the decimal point....and that translates into a whole lot of dollars and jobs.

Great link Solarbuzz if you guys and gals want to see what projects are going on in the world in solar power.

Now fight amongst yourselfs. I am tired and Global Warming is zapping my strength.

BCF over heating:pumpkin:
 

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Cover Harney County with plants like that and we would have power could manufacture fuel for night time use and for vehicles. Of course we would have a bunch of oil sheiks on unemployment if we did that, and a bunch of rich rural SE Oregonians.
 

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With the average federal government subsidy of $0.51 cents per kilowatt hour for solar generation, FPL might be able to get its cost to the consumer down somewhere in the neighborhood of the $0.06 per kilowatt hour we're paying out here for hydro. I'm sure the taxpayers won't mind.
 

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I like rural and desert Oregon JUST THE WAY IT IS, THANK YOU....

Let's cover the West Hills with these things, save money on transmission costs.

The whole NIMBY thing will keep viable solar projects down for a long time.

My .02

TR
 

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:smirk:
I like rural and desert Oregon JUST THE WAY IT IS, THANK YOU....

Let's cover the West Hills with these things, save money on transmission costs.

The whole NIMBY thing will keep viable solar projects down for a long time.

My .02

TR
Kyle, ya made me laugh here. Actually I vote to cover downtown Portland with these things right on top of every building big or small. That is where most of the green is anyways (money) :smirk:.

Interesting site Robin. Nice list of projects that they have in the areas where the sun actually does shine a little with exception to boston. Did'nt see anything listed up in our neck of the woods though. Thus my conclusion is this. We don't stay at a holiday Inn express but we do watch the commercials.:D

The one thing that really bothers me about this whole issue of alternative energy is the REC's and reducing carbon foot prints. Just sounds like snake oil to me. A license to continue to pollute if you will. Maybe I am missing something here. Now where is the closest Holiday Inn?

Thanks for the link. Hope you cool down and regain some energy. I can sell you some conterfit REC's if ya want.:D
 

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http://www.solarbuzz.com/News/NewsNAPR877.htm

This sure seems like this company has plans on generating a lot of alternative power to me. It also represents a whole lot of zeros to the left of the decimal point....and that translates into a whole lot of dollars and jobs.

:
Toy technologies, totally dependent on massive taxes on the rest of us.:shrug:
 

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Were, are we still, giving the oil company's tax breaks? Even in the face of record profits?
Bailing out car manufacturers, airlines etc, etc.
How quickly some forget.
 

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There is a continual stream of hot air coming from a certain location on SE Foster that can not only run wind turbines of unimaginable proportions, but can also heat water through an exchange process!

No subsidies needed!

:grin: :grin: :grin:
 

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There is a continual stream of hot air coming from a certain location on SE Foster that can not only run wind turbines of unimaginable proportions, but can also heat water through an exchange process!

No subsidies needed!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

I believe there are several locations, in and around the PDX area, :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:where this is possible.
 

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OK, seriously now.

I am not for wasteful subsidies, but...

Subsidies have a place IMO. Remember the space race? Different, but similar in that JFK made a BILLION dollar investment (in 1950s dollars) of american tax dollars to beat the Soviet Union to the moon. And it got us there.

The point?

HUGE numbers of innovations and inventions came from that investment. It is well documented and can be researched easily. It turned out to be much more than the first steps on the moon.

So, now we have no space race, and politically it is not popular to support huge NASA expenditures.

If instead (wise) use of tax dollars can support taking infant technologies and subsidising them with the expectation that technological advancements and economies of scale will eventually reduce the need for those subsidies, then that is a net win. At least compared to fattening sheik wallets in a dwindling supply scenario of a finite resource.

Now, of course, the questions of "How does one define a wise subsidy?" and "When should a subsidy end?" applies. And those may be the politically motivated weak points all right. But in a capitalistic society, there has to be assistance in some scenarios for the push for innovation and invention to occur, as there is otherwise not enough capital to make R&D of immense proportion occur.

BTW - There are tax credits available today for businesses large and small for R&D. That is a fact. Show the IRS you are doing research and get a tax credit - not a 1 for 1 certainly, but a credit. Guess what? Without that, many jobs today would disapear. And those are SUBSIDIES.

Economics 101.

:twocents:
 

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There is a continual stream of hot air coming from a certain location on SE Foster that can not only run wind turbines of unimaginable proportions, but can also heat water through an exchange process!

No subsidies needed!

:grin: :grin: :grin:
Yeah, and that power plant has no government subsidies, no county or city grants, pays his taxes, offers a viable important service, purchases no carbon credits and does not bow to the powers that be. Oh, and I don't carry a gun.................................yet.:jester:

My guess is that it is better to have blowing hot air in SE than a vaccum void echo chamber in a place with such an endearing name as the Garbage Hole. :grin:

Careful there Barney, Gary will get you into trouble.
 

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Yeah, and that power plant has no government subsidies, no county or city grants, pays his taxes, offers a viable important service, purchases no carbon credits and does not bow to the powers that be. Oh, and I don't carry a gun.................................yet.:jester:

My guess is that it is better to have blowing hot air in SE than a vaccum void echo chamber in a place with such an endearing name as the Garbage Hole. :grin:

Careful there Barney, Gary will get you into trouble.

No worries Bernie, I can get into trouble all by myself, now where's my calculator? I need to add up the tax credits and incentives on switching to PV.:)
 

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So O.K., maybe Barney's right. Just this once.:crazy:

Go Solar!!!:meme:

But no freakin' windmills.
 

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So, why does every big building in downtown PDX (or every big city) not have PV panels on the roof? Heck, why not replace all the windows as well?

Keep that crap out of rural areas, haven't they been abused enough? Blanket the West Hills, the South and West sides of Mt. Hood with PV panels; maybe carpet the Gorge from PDX Airport to Hood River with windmills. Let all the city folk see it.

TR
 

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"So, why does every big building in downtown PDX (or every big city) not have PV panels on the roof? Heck, why not replace all the windows as well?"
That could be said for every builing with a south facing roof - Right now it is not cost effective but when it is, lets put them on every roof with decent sun exposure and really start making a difference. I want them on my roof but the payoff is too long. Heck, I would put a windmill in my backyard, if I could...

An example - a break-even-system for my house (Makes as much as I use) tied to the grid so that I could sell power during the day and buy at night (which isn't even available with PGE) costs over $50,000. Not very cost effective for me. Watching and waiting.......
 

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How much power do you think you could put back to the grid. It would cost more for them to hook you up to the grid then it would be worth. No guarantee you would keep the pannels in the long run. You could try to declare yourself a Qualifying Facility (QF), then the power company is required to buy your power and sign a (PPA) Power Purchase Agreement. Why do you think wind power is so popular? It is one of the biggest tax credits out there in the power industry!!!!! Companys want to paint the look at us we are green picutre. It is a win, win, with the company because it is good publicity and great in the tax department.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
http://www.apolloalliance.org/about_the_alliance/aboutapollo.cfm

http://home.apolloalliance.org/splash.html

Wow HM you mean something like this idea? I posted the second link originally and I thought I would put the top link in to better address Hogmaster's astute observation.

BCF always lurking:pumpkin:


OK, seriously now.

I am not for wasteful subsidies, but...

Subsidies have a place IMO. Remember the space race? Different, but similar in that JFK made a BILLION dollar investment (in 1950s dollars) of american tax dollars to beat the Soviet Union to the moon. And it got us there.

The point?

HUGE numbers of innovations and inventions came from that investment. It is well documented and can be researched easily. It turned out to be much more than the first steps on the moon.

So, now we have no space race, and politically it is not popular to support huge NASA expenditures.

If instead (wise) use of tax dollars can support taking infant technologies and subsidising them with the expectation that technological advancements and economies of scale will eventually reduce the need for those subsidies, then that is a net win. At least compared to fattening sheik wallets in a dwindling supply scenario of a finite resource.

Now, of course, the questions of "How does one define a wise subsidy?" and "When should a subsidy end?" applies. And those may be the politically motivated weak points all right. But in a capitalistic society, there has to be assistance in some scenarios for the push for innovation and invention to occur, as there is otherwise not enough capital to make R&D of immense proportion occur.

BTW - There are tax credits available today for businesses large and small for R&D. That is a fact. Show the IRS you are doing research and get a tax credit - not a 1 for 1 certainly, but a credit. Guess what? Without that, many jobs today would disapear. And those are SUBSIDIES.

Economics 101.

:twocents:
 

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Oh Hogmaster .. buddy .. you missed it. The Saturn V was the biggest gas hog ever invented. It burned Jet 'A' and oxygen so the OIL-A-Garchy had no issues.

Can't say that about 'Green' technology. The oil companies have issues with that for sure.

Your mileage may vary.


OK, seriously now.

I am not for wasteful subsidies, but...

Subsidies have a place IMO. Remember the space race? Different, but similar in that JFK made a BILLION dollar investment (in 1950s dollars) of american tax dollars to beat the Soviet Union to the moon. And it got us there.

The point?

HUGE numbers of innovations and inventions came from that investment. It is well documented and can be researched easily. It turned out to be much more than the first steps on the moon.

So, now we have no space race, and politically it is not popular to support huge NASA expenditures.

If instead (wise) use of tax dollars can support taking infant technologies and subsidising them with the expectation that technological advancements and economies of scale will eventually reduce the need for those subsidies, then that is a net win. At least compared to fattening sheik wallets in a dwindling supply scenario of a finite resource.

Now, of course, the questions of "How does one define a wise subsidy?" and "When should a subsidy end?" applies. And those may be the politically motivated weak points all right. But in a capitalistic society, there has to be assistance in some scenarios for the push for innovation and invention to occur, as there is otherwise not enough capital to make R&D of immense proportion occur.

BTW - There are tax credits available today for businesses large and small for R&D. That is a fact. Show the IRS you are doing research and get a tax credit - not a 1 for 1 certainly, but a credit. Guess what? Without that, many jobs today would disapear. And those are SUBSIDIES.

Economics 101.

:twocents:
 

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Memo
To : Everyone that doesn't have a dime invested in alternative energy infrastructure.
Re : Attitude

It's not your dollar, so why the punditry? I like a good troll as much as the next guy, but why this? It seems that diversifying our energy portfolio is a great thing and is right in line with securing our country against foreign interests.

So on a personal level, what is your downside if this works out?

:)
Bill
 

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Oh Hogmaster .. buddy .. you missed it. The Saturn V was the biggest gas hog ever invented. It burned Jet 'A' and oxygen so the OIL-A-Garchy had no issues.

Can't say that about 'Green' technology. The oil companies have issues with that for sure.

Your mileage may vary.
Not missed. The point I was trying to make was that many inventions, innovations and productivity enhancements came from what many thought at the time was a mind-blowing boondoggling waste of hard earned tax dollars.

Here is a very simplistic, but accurate chart of some of the things we have today because of the space race:

Inventions from Space Age Research
Teflon
Tang
Bar Codes
TV. Satellite Dish
Ear thermometer
Fire Fighting equipment
Smoke Detectors
Edible Toothpaste
Joysticks
Cordless Tools
Invisible Braces (made from clear ceramics)
Tons of consumer plastic goods​


In retrospect, it is hard to imagine why we would not have cordless tools. And maybe we would by now. But because there was a need in space for such items, they got invented. With tax dollars.

So the rough parallel I was trying to point out is that government is not funding a "space race" directly for alternative energy sources. Instead, it is doing so by promoting subsidies for companies to drive the innovations and inventions that may make it truly cost-effective. Any company that can build a widget always wants to seek to reduce cost by making it better, faster, less expensively and more reliable. Incentives, again, fuel the engine to look for viable answers that can provide sustainable solutions that are not presently cost effective.

Along the way, many jobs are created with those incentives, and, like the space race, necessity becomes the mother of inventions that are often usuable outside of the initial intended usage.

Think of life without a Dish!? :grin:
 
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