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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I urge all fisherman that feel habitat is the key to healthy native salmon and steelhead runs,to please sign the petition. It will be out next week and we need 90k signaturres by July,to get it on the Nov. ballot.
 

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What are we trying to get on the ballot?

Details please.

Mark and the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sorry flatfish,it's a ballot measure that says the Tillimook State will be managed on a 50/50 harvest basis. Half the forest will be logged and managed as a sustainable,rotating yeld show. The other half will be managed for old growth,fish habitat and recreation purposes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you very much Brion.
 

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Who decides WHERE the logging will take place?

The plan sounds interesting on the surface. But is of little use to many anglers if the clearcutting takes place in the Trask and Wilson river drainages.

Brion,

show me information that backs your claim of a 5 fold fish population increase.

Mark and the raised eyebrow dog.

[ 10-15-2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Flatfish ]
 

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Why leave the management of OUR resource to politics as usual and big buisines such that a few may profit while our salmon get washed out and our reds get silted up with every heavy rain.

The pettition is well timed and is one that I feel that every Oregonian could relate to. How do I get some petition sheets? With work, friends and family I am sure I could garner at least 60 signatures.

With a 50% protected share, I would hope that all feeder streams would have a generous buffer-this should be spelled out in the petition along with exact definitions so that swaps and political shananigans couldn't take place.
 

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unfortunately, I'm sure that groups such as the ones that Brion seems to be affiliated will promptly take action to shut things down as soon as the dedicated 50% gets managed for timber harvest.

such is life, I guess.

TR
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The flip side is the whole Tillimook State Forest going to the highest bidder. Our fish runs are to important to let politicians decide what is best for our forests. This initiative gives you the sportsman the chance to tell those in our state capital what you want. Fish have never had equual footing with timber and their habitat has suffered as a result.
 

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Flatfish,

Who decides WHERE the logging will take place?
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The salmon decide <grin>. The amount of land needed to be set aside for the salmon works out to be about 32%.

Here's the science on the Tillamook 50|50 plan.

On the "five fold increase in salmon" and the dog's raised eyebrow.

Look at the tables further down the page. In the case of Coho it goes from zero to 3,000 in 20 years. The numbers refers to fish that we can catch, the sport fishing harvest. Obviously the sustainable population is much larger which is great.

Our analysis indicates that if an anchor habitat strategy is not adopted, the two northwest state forests would not produce sufficient coho to sustain any level of harvest, and that the numbers of catchable chinook would decline from 8,000 to 3,000. With implementation of our proposed anchor habitat strategy, salmon populations would recover sufficiently to allow the catch of 3,000 coho in 20 years, and 21,000 in 125 years. The number of catchable chinook would remain at 8,000 through 20 years and eventually rise to 10,000.

Brion
 

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TheRogue,

...unfortunately, I'm sure that groups such as the ones that Brion seems to be affiliated will promptly take action to shut things down as soon as the dedicated 50% gets managed for timber harvest.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Kind of like saying if you let those nasty sport fishing folks take down the Marmot Dam on the Sandy, they'll take down Bonneville next Thursday and flood the city put everyone in the dark.

I'm not sure if exaggerating things to the extreme addresses the real issues.

Salmon habitat is still being lost in Oregon. Here's a chance to save and rebuild some of the prime salmon habitat in North America and, using good forest and fish science, have substantial logging and fishing at the same time.

That's about the best solution I can imagine.

Brion
 

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Salmon habitat is still being lost in Oregon. Here's a chance to save and rebuild some of the prime salmon habitat in North America and, using good forest and fish science, have substantial logging and fishing at the same time.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Sorry, just have a tough time buying off on a compromise that still can be challenged in court by anyone with the lawsuit filing fee. Remember the NW Forest Plan, you know, the one that promised certain harvest levels... Timber sales are still held up or shut down completely by anyone that feels the need. I'll lay money on the table now that the first timber sales on Tillamook State Forest under this "50/50 split" will be met with some sort of lawsuits which will throw a monkey in the whole thing.

I'll also lay down money that some of those organizations behind the 50/50 split will be involved with the lawsuits as well.

Some times I just hate being a realist, it can be really depressing.

TR
 

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TheRogue,

Timber sales are still held up or shut down completely by anyone that feels the need.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Doesn't appear to be the case in Tillamook. Was there a particular lawsuit that you are aware of that is holding up the ongoing logging of 86% of the Tillamook Clatsop Forest.

Logging of Tillamook Forest is ongoing, over 112 million board feet a year and increasing.

Some times I just hate being a realist, it can be really depressing.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">That's why some folks work to change it. To me, sitting back and doing nothing is depresssing. Win or lose, it can be a heartening to fight the good fight.

In 20 years, when the kids are taking their kids fishing, as they are limiting out on Coho, I want to be able tell them that when I was their age, we couldn't even fish for Coho and that there are way more Chinook now vs. then and....

Brion
 

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that is holding up the ongoing logging of 86% of the Tillamook Clatsop Forest.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Hmmmmmm.....by reading what you just posted, and I quoted, a person less familiar with the situation could easily assume that 86% of the area in question is currently being logged! Anyone would be upset if they assumed 86% of the forest had logging ongoing in it right now, even me. Heck, lots of people would be ready to jump on the lock-it-up bandwagon over that!

Gotta give you credit, you're smooth!

TR
 

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TheRogue,

Hmmmmmm.....by reading what you just posted, and I quoted, a person less familiar with the situation could easily assume that 86% of the area in question is currently being logged!
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And by reading yours, one could assume no logging was taking place, held up by imaginary lawsuits. Guess we are at 50|50 now <grin>.

The 86% refers to forest that is currently open to logging and is being logged. Which parts get logged and when is bascially a logistics/marketing issue.

Keep in mind that it's all been logged once already and it hasn't really recovered from that as far as salmon restoration, watershed etc.

Brion
 

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Keep in mind that it's all been logged once already and it hasn't really recovered from that as far as salmon restoration, watershed etc.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You mean, of course; Keep in mind that much of the area was burned, some areas to the point of sterilization, over a period of years in the early 1900's, some areas were salvage logged, and many areas were just simply replanted because the fire damage was just to intense. Replanting that wouldn't have taken place had it not been for the commercial mind-set of the time.

Just so we keep things a LITTLE bit closer to the truth :grin: :grin:

TR
 

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The real opportunity here is to create a legacy for the future on the order of Oregon's public beach access, the lower 10 miles of the Deschutes, or Olympic National Park.

All of these projects had opposition - and any attempt to prevent a single tree from being cut in our Tillamook State Forest will likewise generate opposition. A lot of it very strident.

Looking forward, a balanced plan is sensible way to keep forest products related dollars flowing off the Tillamook while also creating incredible opportunities for restored fisheries and full range of recreation. Remember, fish are a 'forest product' too.
 

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TheRogue,

All of these projects had opposition - and any attempt to prevent a single tree from being cut in our Tillamook State Forest will likewise generate opposition. A lot of it very strident.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Just to be clear, the Tillamook 5050 proposal allows for substantial logging at least equal to current levels of about 112 million board feet per year.

Unfortunately, this is too often used as an excuse to lock up an entire geographical area.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Again, no locking up of anything so you should be pleased.

Applying a blanket 50-50 split will end up ignoring some of this in the long run.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">No blankets either <grin>. You need to look at the maps and the science of the salmon restoration and Anchor Habitats strategy. It's built around the salmon habitat. Some areas you can log aggressively and it will have little impact, some areas can have limited logging, other areas you can't log at all

Like any good plan, it's based on good science both from a timber harvest standpoint and a fish restoration/harvest standpoint.

Brion
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This is by far the most important political issue of our time. We have the power to create a legacy for our childrens,children. We have sadly seen what type of leadership we can expect from our elected officials. Here's a chance to get it right the first time,do the right thing,set the example for others to follow. This is a win win situation,with all partys getting a piece of the pie. This could put the state of Oregon at the forefront of long term salmon recovery.

[ 10-15-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: freespool ]
 

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This is a complete JOKE!!!

I am sure <grin> will argue, but who really cares!

Just curious, who will decide what is managed for fish, and what is managed for recreration, and what is managed for timber harvest?

Be carefull, this is the start to totall closure. If you can't see it, YOU ARE BLIND!!!!!
 
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