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First, so many professional biologists work for the fish and game departments and "rigging the big game game" rules their mind sets.

It is like being a geologist working for oil companies as opposed to being a geologist working to ID toxins and do environmental cleanups. Two very different people with the same degree.

Now regarding this statement

"More predators doesn’t always lead to a healthy balance of populations."

Are you aware that unless one is hunting predators to extinction, hunting them opens the door for just making more or them.

Please read the extensive research on lion hunting in British Columbia specifically Vancouver Island.

They engage in the most lion hunting there and have the highest populations of lions, lion attacks on people and attacks on domestic animals. Study that issue.

The reason is that as lions are killed often the larger lions are chosen, the territory then get filled with many juvenal lions which the dominant male would kill or chase away.

This is like when the big boss drug lord is taken out, then a bunch of punks come in an there is lots of violence.

This "kill a predator makes more predators" has been proven over and over.

You end up with less predators and more game animals.

I could see no better example than hunting so much of California a decade after the mountain lion hunting ban.

Instead of seeing lot and lots of tracks of young male lions, I saw mostly the tracks of a few females and on huge tom which if hunting were allowed would be the first hunted.

These are the kind of things a real eco-hunter would study and then make choices on. If one just stays in the predators hunting "echo-chamber" one will never learn differently.

When you kill any wild canine, and one of the alpha dominants or both gets killed, then others begin to breed instead of the alphas. Then you end up with many more with new packs forming

Do you know these things?:Learning field biology is where the real deep meaning comes from, Far better than mere "fun" And what a great gift to give your children
Last I checked deer blacktail deer numbers were down by over 50 percent from 20 years ago in Northern Californiabut I’m sure it wasn’t anything to do with predators.

I was simply trying to show you some different perspectives on different aspects of hunting.

You started the thread stating the introduction of Jaguars would be a fantastic money making opportunity…. Disgusting

Then they would be the answer tostopping the spread of disease.

You seem to have great disdain for nearly all hunters besides yourself.

Whatever technology or advantages you use are are ok.


What anyone else uses is laziness.

As a bow hunter that does 99 percent of my hunts living off whatever I can carry in my backpack, it’s always fun being talked down to from a guy that shoots a modern center fire rifle and uses a satellite phone to call some one to retrieve his game.

I don’t want to derail your Jaguar Introduction thread any further.

Why post a thread for discussion if you only want to hear from folks that agree with you.

You have an extremely high opinion of yourself, and your reasons for doing things.

Haven’t I read your stories on here about how you used to buy up land , subdivided, then develope it?

Once you made enough money off that you stopped right? That last piece of land you bought to divide, you had made so much money off all the other properties you did slightly larger lots than legally allowed so the antelope had a little more room to migrate through the area to the winter range. You posted those stories right here on Ifish.

Any posts I have made in this thread have been met with attacks of my character, morals, and intelligence.

I honestly enjoy reading the stories of your hunts, and hope to read about your upcoming deer and elk hunts. Good luck this year
 

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Discussion Starter · #82 ·
Last I checked deer blacktail deer numbers were down by over 50 percent from 20 years ago in Northern Californiabut I’m sure it wasn’t anything to do with predators.

I was simply trying to show you some different perspectives on different aspects of hunting.

You started the thread stating the introduction of Jaguars would be a fantastic money making opportunity…. Disgusting

Then they would be the answer tostopping the spread of disease.

You seem to have great disdain for nearly all hunters besides yourself.

Whatever technology or advantages you use are are ok.


What anyone else uses is laziness.

As a bow hunter that does 99 percent of my hunts living off whatever I can carry in my backpack, it’s always fun being talked down to from a guy that shoots a modern center fire rifle and uses a satellite phone to call some one to retrieve his game.

I don’t want to derail your Jaguar Introduction thread any further.

Why post a thread for discussion if you only want to hear from folks that agree with you.

You have an extremely high opinion of yourself, and your reasons for doing things.

Haven’t I read your stories on here about how you used to buy up land , subdivided, then develope it?

Once you made enough money off that you stopped right? That last piece of land you bought to divide, you had made so much money off all the other properties you did slightly larger lots than legally allowed so the antelope had a little more room to migrate through the area to the winter range. You posted those stories right here on Ifish.

Any posts I have made in this thread have been met with attacks of my character, morals, and intelligence.

I honestly enjoy reading the stories of your hunts, and hope to read about your upcoming deer and elk hunts. Good luck this year
I can see easily how you could feel as you do.

When I agreed with Elkoholic 247 that his disappointment with my beginning this post was valid, I thought how sloppy I was in introducing the idea about the rewards of Ecotourism to small surrounding towns.

That came off poorly. Delivered in a different way, showing how the local communities could benefit from Jaguars being there, to offset problems,,,well I did a poor job of it. Batting 500 was a high record for a baseball hitter. 50%.

I was just looking at a video about a gazillion long line of migrating antelope in Wyoming. It was though the area where I once owned a key piece of bottleneck migration property and went easy on development.

Lucky me. I can take that one to the pearly gates and if the guy in the red suit with the pitch fork tries to stop me, I can show him that video and say; "Get out of my Way"

I think that any new hunter going through their Hunters safety and conservation Ed. paid for by The Pittman Robertson wildlife restoration act, should be made aware of how American Wildlife was taken to the "brink", not just by guns, not just by overgrazing but also by railroad box cars full of the worst poisons, rolled into our virgin lands in horse drawn fright wagons and then spread everywhere in the era of predator killing wars.

Complete with gruesome photos, so that when there are more poisonings, in the Pacific NW and in California, of 12 Mountain lions, and in Africa with lions they will scream out in outrage rather than be a muted, or say SSS.

A few years ago I saw a photo taken after a coyote killing contest. The guys laid out the dead coyote bodies out in the snow and spelled PETA.

There was also a video of guys hunting coyotes not by snowmobile but with them, Running them over with the snow machine.

Also here was a video of guys baiting pigs near a can of explosive Tenerite then blowing up the pigs and laughing as the pigs body parts flew all over.

I put all these on Ifish Hunting. and there was no outrage expressed.

I believe it was "Grant Pastor" who said that we must remember that these animals too are made by our creator.

If hunting is to survive, we need new blood. We need young people who will express outrage when animal blood is spilled so cruelly.

And we need new hunters who will not just fall in line with old ideas, and serve special interest groups.

And we need new hunters who would look at why game herds are falling off, accept the consequences of climate change, in reduced seed head production, in the take over by drought and pure quality invasive plants.

And we need new hunters who can appreciate significant nuance factors in ecological equations.

One of my all time favorite desert places Is Castle Peaks Wilderness area on the Nevada/Cal border.
After extreme drought that killed off all the non native deer, it was designated as a Desert Bighorn recovery area.

The key for success was banning the hunting of bobcats and coyotes. Never had there been found any of their fecal remains big horn sheep i even lambs. The deadly small sharps horns of the ewes protect their young.

The key factor for a successful recovery was sufficient feed and without the coyotes and bobcats taking out the jackrabbbits all the needed feed would be gone.

The predator hunters screamed in protest, all they had was old ideas.

To be frank, even in the face of what you have said about me, from your other writings, I like you, admire your grit.

The question is, do you love hunting and the outdoors enough to explore new ideas?

DB
 

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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.
Thomas Jefferson

DB you asked Michael if he loved hunting so much if he could explore new ideas. Can you? Or is it to late to teach a old dog new tricks?
I took the time to read the Lyme disease paper you posted. The one that you said,
The conclusion is solid. It could not have happened if there were predators, both large and small controlling not just deer but also mice which are as great or even greater carrier of Lymes as deer.
No where in that paper did it even come close to saying that. They talked about a deer population boom, house development protecting deer. Global warming helping it spread faster. But to say if we just had predators, which we do. So I guess if we had even more of them, Lyme disease wouldn’t have reared its head is pretty asinine! It’s been here forever. You might as well use it to support the killing of all deer, robins and mice. Because if we didn’t have them we wouldn’t have Lyme disease.
You also skipped over my question about how jaguar’s were going to save New Mexico and Arizona from CWD. I really am curious on how people believe that. When the disease does not have negative impacts on it s host for atleast one to three years. Yet they shed pirons distributing CWD over the land scape while in the incubation period.
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory.
Thomas Jefferson

DB you asked Michael if he loved hunting so much if he could explore new ideas. Can you? Or is it to late to teach a old dog new tricks?
I took the time to read the Lyme disease paper you posted. The one that you said,

No where in that paper did it even come close to saying that. They talked about a deer population boom, house development protecting deer. Global warming helping it spread faster. But to say if we just had predators, which we do. So I guess if we had even more of them, Lyme disease wouldn’t have reared its head is pretty asinine! It’s been here forever. You might as well use it to support the killing of all deer, robins and mice. Because if we didn’t have them we wouldn’t have Lyme disease.
You also skipped over my question about how jaguar’s were going to save New Mexico and Arizona from CWD. I really am curious on how people believe that. When the disease does not have negative impacts on it s host for atleast one to three years. Yet they shed pirons distributing CWD over the land scape while in the incubation period.

Quote

"This findings clarify that the bacterium is not a recent invader. Diverse lineages of B. burgdorferi have long existed in North America and the current Lyme disease epidemic is the result of ecological changes that have allowed deer, ticks and, finally, bacterium to invade.

The explosion of deer in the twentieth century into suburban landscapes, free of wolf predators and with strict hunting restrictions, allowed deer ticks to rapidly invade throughout much of New England and the Midwest. Climate change has also contributed. Warmer winters accelerate ticks' life cycles and allow them to survive an estimated 28 miles further north each year."

End quote
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
South Africa to send dozens of cheetahs to India under new deal
Story by Allegra Goodwin • 5h ago
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South Africa has signed an agreement with India to reintroduce dozens of cheetahs to the South Asian country after eight of the big cats were sent from neighboring Namibia in 2022.
The first batch of 12 cheetahs is to be flown over in February, according to a statement Thursday from South Africa’s environmental department, which added the plan was to relocate “a further 12 annually for the next eight to 10 years.”
The statement said the aim was to “achieve a number of ecological objectives,” including restoring the role of the cheetah within India, where the endangered cats used to roam, and “enhancing the livelihood options and economies of the local communities.

s://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/south-africa-to-send-dozens-of-cheetahs-to-india-under-new-deal/ar-AA16NCln
 

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....and more... A group is pushing to introduce Sea Otters to northern California north to the Oregon border. Aren't there already Sea Otters in California? If the habitat were suitable in the planned area, wouldn't they already be there? Ya know, the Marine Mammal Protection Act was supposed to restore the population, maybe the single most important reason the act was implemented. Why did it fail?
 

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I think it’s a bit of a mystery why the sea otters have proven to be so non-resilient. It’s a good example of how it’s not really up to us, on some levels, how these things play out.
 
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I think it’s a bit of a mystery why the sea otters have proven to be so non-resilient. It’s a good example of how it’s not really up to us, on some levels, how these things play out.
Funny you should bring this up.

I was curious myself and began to look for answers. They came up in just a few moments.

Due to Climate Change the normally cold ocean waters along the Big Sur coast are warming up. That temperature change has crossed a threshold and now juvenal white sharks are ranging farther north than ever before and hitting the otters hard.

For some time that temp increase has been flipping ocean life around for the worse. Steel head returns are way down,,,cause,, climate change and warmer pacific waters.

Typically the southern range of sea otters was determined to a large extent by water temps and the resulting sea life, as in the number of great white sharks.

The goal is to move them north beyond the warmer and now shark filled waters

Any curious genuine conservationist could get this information pretty easy.

Sea otter and river otters are one of my favorite predators.

The California sea otters were thought to be extinct , all killed off in the fur trade. About 50 were found in a remote area in the Big Sur coast.

When their numbers safely increased, several times I went to the big sur coast and spent the entire day, from dawn till dusk in a black wetsuit, with my then black beard, being with them in the kelp beds.

What an incredible experience.

As their numbers increased crabbers, abalone and sea urchin fishermen began killing them.

In response a law passed banning firearms west on the pacific coast highway and onboard any fisherman's boat.

I have observed otters on the east coast, west coast, in Slovenia, the Columbia glacier in Alaska, Vancouver Island BC, In the Amazon ( the huge river otters there) and am glad that they had been restored to their original range up the Rio Grande even to Arizona and New Mexico.
 
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