[Desert Bighorn]

JeffO

Hurray, the book link I sent opened but got buried in your text above . Around 1982 I got a copy of the "Land of Clear Light" about Wild Places in the American Southwest and Northern Mexico. It became one of the most influencial books of my life.

Over the course of years I went everywhere described in that book,,,,except the Gila.

I was a carpentry framing crew foreman back then working southern Cal and whenever I had a break I would take off and complete another section of that book.

My backpacking days are done being in my mid 70's. My goal next fall is to take off with my spartan like but functional camper van towing a couple horses and do a a few months on the road.

Going horseback camping in the Gila is the top of my list.

I found a Steve Rinella of "Meat Eater" fame video about the Jaguar and it's reintroduction into the American southwest.

From his research the Jaguar home range was fully verified as far north as the Platte River, Colorado. He is mostly positive about the reintroduction.

Restorative conservation groups, (you could define me as a "restorative field Biologist who also likes to hunt) are now taking up a new task. How to save intact biome pockets with an as full as possible disease free-er compliment of original plants and animals. Kinda like seed stock Noah's Ark islands for the very uncertain future of wildlife.

Saving the predators is the trickiest part. For example there are only 20,000 to 23,000 African lions left. At the present rate of decline they are predicted to be gone from the wild by 2050, from poaching and poisoning.

I have visited some of these bio-preserves in Latin America, rarely if ever does one get to see the critical wildlife. Those areas are off limits except to actual researchers.

Regarding animals migrating across barren desert between "Sky Islands" it does happen.

The Sierra Del Carmen in Northern Mexico is a huge chunk of wild country that has had it's original fauna pretty well restored and full protected.

Black bears go back and forth between there and the Chisos Mountains of Texas. A border wall would be disaster for wildlife.

Steve Rinnela talks about this in the Jaguar video

One thing that Steve does not talk about is the whole new direction that Wildlife Biology and diseases connecting wildlife and humans has taken.

Yale Medical School did the most complete research on the origin of Lyme's disease in America,

The conclusion is solid. It could not have happened if there were predators, both large and small controlling not just deer but also mice which are as great or even greater carrier of Lymes as deer.

Already studies in Europe have shown that stopping the hunting and trapping of the smallest predators reduces the number of people who get Lymes Disease. This is why we need people aware of these health issues on fish and game commissions.

The human health wildlife connections are coming one after another. In Africa poisoning lions get the vultures poisoned. We have lost them in majority percentages all over the southern hemisphere to the 75 to even 99% levels.

Vultures protect people from getting and spreading anthrax, tuberculosis and rabies

And pertinent to the Gila and the Jaguar issue. Such biologists are looking for bio-remediation of wildlife diseases by predators, culling out the sick and weak. diseases like otherwise unstoppable CWD, which is just on the edge of the Gila in Sothern most New Mexico.

The CWD in NM is an isolated island pocket unlike further north.

The Gila is a perfect canidate for a large predator CWD Bio-remediation/prevention campaign.

The only problem is there is really no predator ideally bio designed for the taking down full sized adult elk which is exactly what needs to be done to cull out elk with CWD. That is when and where CWD shows up, as adult elk.

Jaguars are designed to take down the big animals.

And lastly Steve Rinnela offers reasons why he thinks having some Jaguars there would not put a big dent in the elk population.

I''ll send his video. hope it opens Still having problems with that,

DB

www.amazon.com/Land-Clear-Light-Southwest-Northwestern/dp/0876902034/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1IGD7YHR3T7EB&keywords=the+land+of+clear+light&qid=1674481482&sprefix=,aps,165&sr=8-2

 

[Flatfish]

If Jags are much like Mt Lions, they likely wouldn't eat too many elk. Pretty big critters and run in herds. Might even fight back to a degree.

Deer/Sheep/Goat might be a different story.

Mt Lions decimated the sheep population in Hart Mt. It's well documented.

Predators that figure out how to make a living in a particular niche will have an impact.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

If Jags are much like Mt Lions, they likely wouldn't eat too many elk. Pretty big critters and run in herds. Might even fight back to a degree.

Deer/Sheep/Goat might be a different story.

Mt Lions decimated the sheep population in Hart Mt. It's well documented.

Predators that figure out how to make a living in a particular niche will have an impact.

Jags are designed by nature for the biggest critters..

 

[Desert Bighorn]

There are so many multiple topics related to wildlife on this post, I do hope we can stay civil so that it does not get shut down.

If I were again a science educator and a student asked me what field of science to go into, without question I would suggest some area studying diseases of wildlife that could impact humans, either economically or via contagion or both.

Especially after Covid, this whole area is on fire.

Regarding CWD, here is my conclusion after reading the most accurate info available.

All CWD will do is spread and get worse!

Amazingly on some hunting blogs Hunters say it is not happening. Just a ploy by anti hunters.

I have looked for CWD answers from some of out best vet schools and other science professionals and here is what they say.

Stop the game farms where animals are condensed.

And wen asked about predators being a source of bio-remediation, the answers are;

If CWD is already heavily established. It is too late to ever really functionally eliminate it.

The only situation they have offered positive thoughts for are isolated areas where CWD is just beginning, and there are not adjacent areas that are infected and there already is a well established broad base predator guild

 

[Flatfish]

Jags wont hunt only the biggest game because you said so. They will make a living on whatever food sources are available. If Sheep are easier to kill than elk, they will become specialists in sheep. Or deer. Or livestock.

Only in the largest bodied predators (Bears usually) are happy to take on a full grown elk alone. Wolves hunt in packs. I somehow doubt cats will adopt the pack behavior.

If the risk outweighs the reward....

Do the math

100-200 pound cat
300-700 pound elk.
100 pound deer
150 pound sheep

 

[JeffO]

Not talked about here is cows. Back in my day in NM, the damn beasts were allowed into wilderness areas as a matter of course. I’ll never forget being chased into the Pecos by either a bull or a cow with big-ass horns. We were 5 miles deep on a backpacking trip.

My wife, who was my GF at the time, and I backpacked into the Gila in the late 80’s. Her recollection is that at that time cows were in there. I don’t recall. I do remember a different time, also mid/late 80’s, a buddy I was backpacking with found what he was pretty certain was a psilocybe mushroom on a cow patty. That was in the Gila.

So when performing the mental calculus of whether or how reintroduction would work (or not work), do include that at least a few decades ago cows were all over the place in the Gila. With cows come ranchers. With ranchers come opposition to predators at best, active killing of them at worst, as we’ve seen with wolves. Just.... reality.

For the record I strenuously oppose cows in Wilderness Areas.

 

[SquarePeg]

For the record I strenuously oppose cows in Wilderness Areas.

Yes. That we agree on. Not sure if you'll remember but back in 2012 when I heard the weird voice in the wilderness the first thing that came to my mind was "cattle drive" 'cause it sounded like the calls I've heard guys use to command their stock dogs to direct a herd. Then .. wait a "f" minute, there haven't been cows allowed here since wilderness designation in '84. That's when I grabbed the audio recorder and started recording. Still full on weirdness. Off topic, sure, but it relates to cows in wilderness.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

Jags wont hunt only the biggest game because you said so. They will make a living on whatever food sources are available. If Sheep are easier to kill than elk, they will become specialists in sheep. Or deer. Or livestock.

Only in the largest bodied predators (Bears usually) are happy to take on a full grown elk alone. Wolves hunt in packs. I somehow doubt cats will adopt the pack behavior.

If the risk outweighs the reward....

Do the math

100-200 pound cat
300-700 pound elk.
100 pound deer
150 pound sheep

To Flatfish,

Even of the size of Smaller Jaguar and a large mountain lion are kinds close they are truly very different cats.
Kinda like having two pickup trucks with the same bed size and one has a half ton rating and the other is a one ton.

The mountain lion is a post pleistocene (era of the huge mammals) cat with a genetic history that shows it came from a form of the African cheetah and the New world smaller jaguraundi. They are bio engineered for chasing the fast light hooved animals that came after the Pleistocene.

The Jaguar evolved from huge leopards that crossed the ice bridge from the old world and would have even been around with the saber toothed tigers.

I was just reading about the bio mechanics anatomy of jaguars in a paper written by a expert on animal physiology especially the Jaguar.

It was amazing what he described in terms of the killing power for huge animals that the jags have for near instant kills.

They may a times eat smaller critters of course but their niche is the big guys.

The mountain lion is like a hunter afield with a .270 and the Jag is like one afield with a 375 H and H

 

[Elkoholic247]

There are so many multiple topics related to wildlife on this post, I do hope we can stay civil so that it does not get shut down.

If I were again a science educator and a student asked me what field of science to go into, without question I would suggest some area studying diseases of wildlife that could impact humans, either economically or via contagion or both.

Especially after Covid, this whole area is on fire.

Regarding CWD, here is my conclusion after reading the most accurate info available.

All CWD will do is spread and get worse!

Amazingly on some hunting blogs Hunters say it is not happening. Just a ploy by anti hunters.

I have looked for CWD answers from some of out best vet schools and other science professionals and here is what they say.

Stop the game farms where animals are condensed.

And wen asked about predators being a source of bio-remediation, the answers are;

If CWD is already heavily established. It is too late to ever really functionally eliminate it.

The only situation they have offered positive thoughts for are isolated areas where CWD is just beginning, and there are not adjacent areas that are infected and there already is a well established broad base predator guild

BG I would like to apologize for coming off so strong on my last post. I prefer raw facts that I can then come up with my own conclusions from. Not somebody opinion that is told to me as fact. I hope that makes sense.
That being said. Im somewhat skeptical on predators (excluding humans) being the saving grace of all cervids from CWD. The pro predator (usually anti hunting) groups have seemed to jump on this theory because it fits into there agenda. Maybe you can explain something I’m missing here. I’m not sure how people think that (in your case jaguars) are going to stop cwd. CWD has a extremely long incubation rate in there host. Studies have shown in deer a minimum of 15 months and elk at 12 to 34 months before they even start to show clinical signs. Durning this time they can spread the disease. So how is a predator going to help here? These animals are not any different then there fellow counter part at this stage. They are just as fast, strong and mentally aware. This may sound a little sarcastic but it partly is. Can they smell CWD out and are only going to go after the CWD infected animals? No! So how is it going to stop CWD?
Here is some material to back up the numbers I have stated.

CWD Overview

This chronic wasting disease review originally was presented at the 67th North American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference by the late Elizabeth S. Williams (Williams et al, 2002). The review has been updated and is current as of July 2019. Primary editor and contributing author is John R. Fi

cwd-info.org

I have a question about your statement of Lyme disease? Are you saying that we didn’t have predators and that’s why we have Lyme disease? We’re there no predators?

Yale Medical School did the most complete research on the origin of Lyme's disease in America,

The conclusion is solid. It could not have happened if there were predators, both large and small controlling not just deer but also mice which are as great or even greater carrier of Lymes as deer.

Do you have the research papers for this? Also the European study’s that showed that if you stopped hunting small predators that Lyme disease goes down. This is the first I have heard of it. With the cyclical cycle of predator pray relationship’s. I’m not sure how that actually would prove correct. Hunted or not.

 

[SquarePeg]

The only way predators will reduce CWD .. or Lyme disease .. are a) to reduce the concentration of the host animals so there's no contact thus no spread or b) by targeting the sick and weak, selectively pick off the animals that might otherwise spread the disease. There are flaws in both assumptions. It doesn't negate them but it reduces their value/impact.

 

[DogZilla15]

The subject of game farms came up which hasn't been a topic for discussion in quite some time. I figured they were a thing of the past but maybe it isn't true after all?

I have no idea how Lyme became associated with predators. There are some theories being tossed around here that aren't completely absurd so I guess we can consider them. A more practical consideration is tick habitat. There are simply more of the particular tick involved in some areas than others. Follow the ticks, not the disease. With climate change affecting everything these days, it may be too late to come to any meaningful conclusion(s) because of the constant state of change. What's true today, won't be in ten years just it wasn't ten years ago.

 

[JeffO]

Good point. The American Southwest is in a horrific drought; this may be the new normal. It might get WORSE. It will almost certainly get hotter. Is the Gila still jaguar-friendly in 20 years if those trends continue?

It’s always a mistake to think of an ecosystem as static, but my strong suspicion is that that’s doubly- triply- quadruply true now. Octupely. <grin> Things are changing and it’s happening fast. Large, rare, slow-reproducing animals do not handle fast changes well.

Edit to add: just got some clarity on this on a hike just now. I think the focus should be on protecting/helping critters in their core habitat- not on the fringes. I do understand that the jaguar’s core habitat is in Mexico. Still, especially with what I typed above as a premise- that the Southwest is changing fast- it strikes me as nuts to try to shoehorn this cat back into what was- in the best of times- on the fringe of its range.

We can spend our conservation dollars better. All just IMHO, liking the conversation.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

Not talked about here is cows. Back in my day in NM, the damn beasts were allowed into wilderness areas as a matter of course. I’ll never forget being chased into the Pecos by either a bull or a cow with big-ass horns. We were 5 miles deep on a backpacking trip.

My wife, who was my GF at the time, and I backpacked into the Gila in the late 80’s. Her recollection is that at that time cows were in there. I don’t recall. I do remember a different time, also mid/late 80’s, a buddy I was backpacking with found what he was pretty certain was a psilocybe mushroom on a cow patty. That was in the Gila.

So when performing the mental calculus of whether or how reintroduction would work (or not work), do include that at least a few decades ago cows were all over the place in the Gila. With cows come ranchers. With ranchers come opposition to predators at best, active killing of them at worst, as we’ve seen with wolves. Just.... reality.

For the record I strenuously oppose cows in Wilderness Areas.
[/QUOT

BG I would like to apologize for coming off so strong on my last post. I prefer raw facts that I can then come up with my own conclusions from. Not somebody opinion that is told to me as fact. I hope that makes sense.
That being said. Im somewhat skeptical on predators (excluding humans) being the saving grace of all cervids from CWD. The pro predator (usually anti hunting) groups have seemed to jump on this theory because it fits into there agenda. Maybe you can explain something I’m missing here. I’m not sure how people think that (in your case jaguars) are going to stop cwd. CWD has a extremely long incubation rate in there host. Studies have shown in deer a minimum of 15 months and elk at 12 to 34 months before they even start to show clinical signs. Durning this time they can spread the disease. So how is a predator going to help here? These animals are not any different then there fellow counter part at this stage. They are just as fast, strong and mentally aware. This may sound a little sarcastic but it partly is. Can they smell CWD out and are only going to go after the CWD infected animals? No! So how is it going to stop CWD?
Here is some material to back up the numbers I have stated.

CWD Overview

This chronic wasting disease review originally was presented at the 67th North American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference by the late Elizabeth S. Williams (Williams et al, 2002). The review has been updated and is current as of July 2019. Primary editor and contributing author is John R. Fi

cwd-info.org

I have a question about your statement of Lyme disease? Are you saying that we didn’t have predators and that’s why we have Lyme disease? We’re there no predators?


Do you have the research papers for this? Also the European study’s that showed that if you stopped hunting small predators that Lyme disease goes down. This is the first I have heard of it. With the cyclical cycle of predator pray relationship’s. I’m not sure how that actually would prove correct. Hunted or not.

Many years ago I had the incredible pleasure of hunting Arizona legendary Kaibab Plateau.

BG I would like to apologize for coming off so strong on my last post. I prefer raw facts that I can then come up with my own conclusions from. Not somebody opinion that is told to me as fact. I hope that makes sense.
That being said. Im somewhat skeptical on predators (excluding humans) being the saving grace of all cervids from CWD. The pro predator (usually anti hunting) groups have seemed to jump on this theory because it fits into there agenda. Maybe you can explain something I’m missing here. I’m not sure how people think that (in your case jaguars) are going to stop cwd. CWD has a extremely long incubation rate in there host. Studies have shown in deer a minimum of 15 months and elk at 12 to 34 months before they even start to show clinical signs. Durning this time they can spread the disease. So how is a predator going to help here? These animals are not any different then there fellow counter part at this stage. They are just as fast, strong and mentally aware. This may sound a little sarcastic but it partly is. Can they smell CWD out and are only going to go after the CWD infected animals? No! So how is it going to stop CWD?
Here is some material to back up the numbers I have stated.

CWD Overview

This chronic wasting disease review originally was presented at the 67th North American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference by the late Elizabeth S. Williams (Williams et al, 2002). The review has been updated and is current as of July 2019. Primary editor and contributing author is John R. Fi

cwd-info.org

I have a question about your statement of Lyme disease? Are you saying that we didn’t have predators and that’s why we have Lyme disease? We’re there no predators?


Do you have the research papers for this? Also the European study’s that showed that if you stopped hunting small predators that Lyme disease goes down. This is the first I have heard of it. With the cyclical cycle of predator pray relationship’s. I’m not sure how that actually would prove correct. Hunted or not.

Elkoholic 247,

Thank you for being a gentleman. Much appreciated. The topics and sub topics we have a chance to look at are really so huge, a big plate of ideas. I thought we could have a go at them one bite at a time.

Here is an research article from the Yale School of Medicine about Lyme's Disease and how and where and why it erupted so suddenly after being endemic in the Northeast US for 60,00 years.

Yale and Lyme's Disease are both from Connecticut, my home state.

If my link does not open just, plug the topic words into a google search and it will come right up.

When I grew up there, I never saw a tick, not one after roaming and running around though the woods and swamps forever. Deer were uncommon, mostly in the NW part of the state, but farmers were allowed pretty much all they wanted to shoot, so deer were hunted.

The general population of hunters had far fewer deer hunting opportunities but once the deer explosion began the Fish and Game authorities responded pretty quickly allowing hunters to take one, then two, them four and now up to six deer a year. Hunters could not keep up with the deer population explosion especially as it hit urban areas, plus deer carried so many ticks many stopped hunting them. A high Yucch factor.

Anyway, read the link , all of you, and we can offer our thoughts about what can happen without a sufficient natural predator guild, resulting in diseases. As in most environmental issues there are a number of factors in the equation that results in disease or a system dysfunction.

Upon deeper examination, more and more the absence of predators is a critical factor. Here is an example.

Connecticut is #5 in the nation for Lyme's and I cannot tell you how many people I know who have had it,,,over and over, some 3 or 4 times, quite a few with “Long Lyme's” that went on for years.

Some have almost died from babeiosis, a tick born disease.

Ancient History of Lyme Disease in North America Revealed with Bacterial Genomes

A team of researchers led by the Yale School of Public Health has found that the Lyme disease bacterium is ancient in North America, circulating silently in

medicine.yale.edu

 

[Desert Bighorn]

Hmm I did not mean to include Jeffo in my above response to Elkoholic 247. Seems that I am having more tech issues than usual. My posts are getting jumbled up That said I will throw in some thoughts about cattle on public land, especially dedicated wilderness.

What I m about to describe, I have seen several times, especially in dry desert wilderness areas.

One example was when I was hunting the Kaibab Plateau in North western Az. This was once the most spectacular of trophy mule deer country. Still is so hard to dear a tag.

Anyway while hunting there I saw an entire canyon of the best deer habitat being ruined by one HUGE old range bull that was never rounded up and just left there.

Western hunters should, I believe be far more concerned about over grazing by domestic stock than about predators.

It is so important to realize that our game management policies were an inheritance of the Herding/first agricultural societies that began not just hundreds but thousands of years ago.
With them every wild animal that ate their crops, or ate their livestock was the enemy.

Over and over the same pattern immerged, measure wealth in having more crops and more animals, overgraze the land then move on/conquer new land, then repeat the process.

There is just no more room for this.

My thoughts go back to my first trips out west, 57 years ago. What I found was mostly a "feedlots without fences".
That is what open range grazing had produced in the west.

We just happened to have so much land that there we pockets left of wild animals. Once they became a little more of them and went into better wintering areas they met with some very angry rancher.

One was once my neighbor. He bragged about how he shot elk after elk and left them rot, after they came to feed at his fenced hay stacks. They just just jumped the fence. He even called the fish ad game telling them he would continue to do so until they drove the elk away.

That kind of mentality was how we ended up with elk feeding grounds, which beyond breeding CWD and elk hoof rot, turn so many of out elk into being one step away from "hatchery elk".

The only places that are truly wild are where elk winter on native diets and where there are lots of large predators.

I love looking across big valley with my spotting scope an seeing their unmistakable rotary gallop, transverse gallop,
2x2 trot, and even 1,2,1 trot tracks in the snow.

I can ID what predator made them from a half mile away. Those are the only places I hunt anymore.

No cows, no quads, a full guild of predators and lots of elk grazing on native plants. I have no interest in hunting the "feed lots w/o fences" and that included timber company lands with their plant growth chemical, and even cleat cuts under power lines.

Black bears by the way make the most cool natural openings in the forest. hen they come pit in the spring they can girth 80 trees a day for he sweet inner layers. Timber companies hate then for that but hunters should have great appreciation for the clearings these bears creating habitat in the dark forest for deer elk and moose.

I never have and never will shoot a bear. Why shoot a critter that is doing me a favor?

 

[michael rankin]

Bear hunting is a lot of fun. They also taste great. I spend a ton of time in nature, and have only shot one mountain lion. They are great food as well.

I hunt for the challenge of outsmarting wild animals, and to fill my freezers with food for me, my family, and friends for the year!

Wild game is in the menu most days in my house.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

I am reposting my response to Elkoholic 247, It got lost in the middle of several repeated messages. I have been having lots tech anx lately My computer is old and my screen is pretty worn out.

Thank you for being a gentleman. Much appreciated. The topics and sub topics we have a channce to look at are really so huge, a big plate of ideas. I thought we could have a go at them one bite at a time.

Here is an article from the Yale School of Medicine about Lyme's Disease and how and where and why it erupted so suddenly after being endemic in the Northeast US for 60,00 years.

Yale and Lyme's Disease are both from Connecticut, my home state.

If my link does not open just, plug the topic words into a google search and it will come right up.

When I grew up there, I never saw a tick, not one after roaming and running around though the woods and swamps forever. Deer were uncommon, mostly in the NW part of the state, but farmers were allowed pretty much all they wanted, so deer were hunted.

The general population of hunters had far fewer deer hunting opportunities but once the deer explosion began the Fish and Game authorities responded pretty quickly allowing hunters to take one, then two, them four and now up to six deer a year. Hunters could not keep up with the deer population explosion especially as it hit urban areas, plus deer carried so many ticks many stopped hunting them.

Anyway, read the link , all of you, and we can offer our thoughts about what can happen without a sufficient natural predator guild, resulting in diseases.

Connecticut is #5 in the nation for Lyme's and I cannot tell you how many people I know who have had it,,,over and over, some 3 or 4 times, quite a few with “Long Lyme's” that went on for years.

Some have almost died from babeiosis, a tick born disease.

Ancient History of Lyme Disease in North America Revealed with Bacterial Genomes

A team of researchers led by the Yale School of Public Health has found that the Lyme disease bacterium is ancient in North America, circulating silently in

medicine.yale.edu

 

[michael rankin]

No cows, no quads, a full guild of predators and lots of elk grazing on native plants. I have no interest in hunting the "feed lots w/o fences" and that included timber company lands with their plant growth chemical, and even cleat cuts under power lines.

Luckily there is still plenty of options for everyone to have the type of hunt they enjoy.

My enjoyment comes from hunts somewhat similar to what you typically describe.
Wilderness areas, with extremely limited human impact on animal behavior. Just huge areas where nature is doing its thing.

I do cheat a little bit compared to the trips you describe you do, I have a sleeping bag and sleeping pad! My buddy and I have called in and arrowed quite a few bulls on both sides of this drainage. It’s a LONG ways to any roads. I’m my opinion it’s a pretty wild and natural place. Plenty of black bears, wolves, and mountain lions. Deer numbers are dismal, and WAY below the game department’s management levels(less than 50 percent of their objectives). Bull/cow ratios, and calf/cow ratios are also really bad, way below game department objectives.

With the rugged country, and lack of human access, unchecked predators are having a detrimental effect on ungulates according to the professional biologists.

More predators doesn’t always lead to a healthy balance of populations.

Also don’t for get that hunters (humans) are one of the species on this planet, and are part of the equation.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

Bear hunting is a lot of fun. They also taste great. I spend a ton of time in nature, and have only shot one mountain lion. They are great food as well.

I hunt for the challenge of outsmarting wild animals, and to fill my freezers with food for me, my family, and friends for the year!

Wild game is in the menu most days in my house.

I hold you in high regards Michael, I really do. I think you have grit, are in great shape enjoy knowing animals and the country. There is place however where we part company.

Killing any animal and having it be" fun" is way way beyond what I want now. When I was a kid that was part of it. But as I grew out of that mindset and heart-set killing for "fun" was dropped like a hot rock.

So was the idea of hunting for the challenge. Hunting for fun and challenge are reasons why civilized men and woman hunt..

Three times in my life I have had the rewarding experience o hunting with native hunters.

Yes yes I know how distorted they can and have gotten, but these two men and one woman where not that way.
They grew up with being taught about the old ways deep connections.

Fun was not part of their spiritual hunting portfolio..

Maybe that is why one native American had me join him on a hunt on his peoples land, which they had been hunting for many thousands of year.

The great challenge for a hunter is not to hunt for fun and a position of challenge. So silly anyway with out techlogical gadgets.

Bottom line. When I hear some body talking about how much fun it is kill animals and doing it for the challenge, I give them a wide berth and feel a bit sad for them

 

[michael rankin]

I hold you in high regards Michael, I really do. I think you have grit, are in great shape enjoy knowing animals and the country. There is place however where we part company.

Killing any animal and having it be" fun" is way way beyond what I want now. When I was a kid that was part of it. But as I grew out of that mindset and heart-set killing for "fun" was dropped like a hot rock.

So was the idea of hunting for the challenge. Hunting for fun and challenge are reasons why civilized men and woman hunt..

Three times in my life I have had the rewarding experience o hunting with native hunters.

Yes yes I know how distorted they can and have gotten, but these two men and one woman where not that way.
They grew up with being taught about the old ways deep connections.

Fun was not part of their spiritual hunting portfolio..

Maybe that is why one native American had me join him on a hunt on his peoples land, which they had been hunting for many thousands of year.

The great challenge for a hunter is not to hunt for fun and a position of challenge. So silly anyway with out techlogical gadgets.

Bottom line. When I hear some body talking about how much fun it is kill animals and doing it for the challenge, I give them a wide berth and feel a bit sad for them

I said “bear hunting is a lot of fun”. I never said killing is fun. You miss understood my post.

The kill is a very, very small part of any hunt.

Lots of people rarely fill any tags, yet they still head for the mountains full of excitement for the “hunt”.

For some of us the “hunt“ is with us daily.

 

[Desert Bighorn]

Luckily there is still plenty of options for everyone to have the type of hunt they enjoy.

My enjoyment comes from hunts somewhat similar to what you typically describe.
Wilderness areas, with extremely limited human impact on animal behavior. Just huge areas where nature is doing its thing.

I do cheat a little bit compared to the trips you describe you do, I have a sleeping bag and sleeping pad! My buddy and I have called in and arrowed quite a few bulls on both sides of this drainage. It’s a LONG ways to any roads. I’m my opinion it’s a pretty wild and natural place. Plenty of black bears, wolves, and mountain lions. Deer numbers are dismal, and WAY below the game department’s management levels(less than 50 percent of their objectives). Bull/cow ratios, and calf/cow ratios are also really bad, way below game department objectives.

With the rugged country, and lack of human access, unchecked predators are having a detrimental effect on ungulates according to the professional biologists.

More predators doesn’t always lead to a healthy balance of populations.

Also don’t for get that hunters (humans) are one of the species on this planet, and are part of the equation.
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First, so many professional biologists work for the fish and game departments and "rigging the big game game" rules their mind sets.

It is like being a geologist working for oil companies as opposed to being a geologist working to ID toxins and do environmental cleanups. Two very different people with the same degree.

Now regarding this statement

"More predators doesn’t always lead to a healthy balance of populations."

Are you aware that unless one is hunting predators to extinction, hunting them opens the door for just making more or them.

Please read the extensive research on lion hunting in British Columbia specifically Vancouver Island.

They engage in the most lion hunting there and have the highest populations of lions, lion attacks on people and attacks on domestic animals. Study that issue.

The reason is that as lions are killed often the larger lions are chosen, the territory then get filled with many juvenal lions which the dominant male would kill or chase away.

This is like when the big boss drug lord is taken out, then a bunch of punks come in an there is lots of violence.

This "kill a predator makes more predators" has been proven over and over.

You end up with less predators and more game animals.

I could see no better example than hunting so much of California a decade after the mountain lion hunting ban.

Instead of seeing lot and lots of tracks of young male lions, I saw mostly the tracks of a few females and on huge tom which if hunting were allowed would be the first hunted.

These are the kind of things a real eco-hunter would study and then make choices on. If one just stays in the predators hunting "echo-chamber" one will never learn differently.

When you kill any wild canine, and one of the alpha dominants or both gets killed, then others begin to breed instead of the alphas. Then you end up with many more with new packs forming

Do you know these things?:Learning field biology is where the real deep meaning comes from, Far better than mere "fun" And what a great gift to give your children