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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
s://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2021/05/18/new-study-makes-case-for-jaguar-reintroduction-in-arizona-new-mexico/#:~:text=Conservation%20biologists%20are%20making%20the%20case%20for%20jaguar,males%20have%20been%20documented%20in%20the%20United%20States.

ps://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/return-great-american-jaguar-180960443/
 

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I hope these links open

At this point it seems near certain that there will be an effort to restore the Jaguar to Arizona and New Mexico,

What are your thoughts about this?

s://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2021/05/18/new-study-makes-case-for-jaguar-reintroduction-in-arizona-new-mexico/#:~:text=Conservation%20biologists%20are%20making%20the%20case%20for%20jaguar,males%20have%20been%20documented%20in%20the%20United%20States.

ps://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/return-great-american-jaguar-180960443/
 

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A little over a week ago I heard the story about of this poor fella from his sister...


Jaguars have the strongest jaw muscles of all of the big cats. Their bite force is around 1,500 pounds per square inch, which is about double that of a tiger
 

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I was hunting deer in Arizona several years ago.

The guy we were hunting with that lived down there took us to a guys house to see his trophy room. He said it was a must see, the guy was in in 70’s and hunted nearly everywhere around the world. That guy knew hounds men, and was telling stories of them already being there. Not sure if true or not.
 

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I read the land they want to reintroduce them back into goes all the way up through the Grand Canyon. I've personally seen tourists try to approach close to bull elk there. I would hope most tourists would not try to approach a spotted kitty, but they keep proving me wrong (ie. Bison).
 

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My understanding is that they have come and gone, traveling back and forth from Mexico to New Mexico for a long time. I remember reading a story, maybe in Outdoor Life, of Karl Malone hunting cats behind hounds and the dogs got a jaguar holed up in a crevasse in the rocks. They pulled the dogs, took some pictures, and let it be. I would have to think that left to their nature for long enough they would eventually become resident.
 

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I read an article about a rancher named Warner Glenn who got into a jaguar in extreme southern Arizona or New Mexico (I forget which). Probably 20 or 25 years ago. He was featured in advertisements for Pentax optics for a while.
 

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Your links don’t work for me but jaguar’s have been crossing back and forth from Mexico forever. The US is the far northern most part of there range. Houndsman have treed a few. Border patrol has also gotten a few pictures of them. There will never be a stable population of them in the US. It is just to far north. As much as I’m sure it would make you feel good. There will only be the occasional one here and there. Mostly males.
 

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My wife as driving a car on the entry road into the Calakmul bisphere on here way to the ruins on her birthday 10 years ago an saw a Jaguar. It was walking down the road in the same direction as her. As she got closer it heard her car, turned looked at her and leaped into the jungle. She said it was HUGE!
It was her birthday. I was once visiting a farmer in the countryside out north of Bacalar, Mexico and asked him about the pen with the 10 foot tall chain link fence around it. Inside was a water trough and a simple wood shelter, it smelled like pig. he said it was his pig pen but every time his pig got to be a couple hundred pounds the Jaguar would come in the night and grab it and drag it out the top of the fence dead. He was too afraid to come out and try to shoot it with his single shot breakopen 12 guage.

I asked why not just put a roof of fence on the top. He said he did at the 6 foot level, like a dog kennel you know, but the Cat tore the fence edge down and dragged the pig out. So he thought I know I will make it 3 meters tall, he cant jump that. HA. they are magnificent animals and he quit trying to raise a pig.

And I agree with Elkaholic, they are a jungle cat mainly. They like thick jungle, they like trees and soft ground.
 

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I can attest there are cougar in NM as I saw one growing up, pretty far south, too. Point being, it’s not like there’s an unfilled ecological niche for them to just slide into.
 

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Steve Rinella was on Joe Rogan podcast recently and this question came up. The distinction is if jaguar use the area of US as a part of core range and habitat or peripheral areas used mainly by transients. He had doubts the areas in question north of the border ever were home range for a northern population of these cats. His other point the established population of mature cougars would make it hard for jaguars. A Jaguar is much larger and formidable, but much higher numbers of mature male cougars would impact female and juvenile jaguars effectively preventing establishing breeding populations.

I would be interested if the Hopi, Navajo, or Apaches have a word in their language for a jaguar. I know they used tribes vocabulary to determine the range of bison. Tribes that interacted first hand had a unique word for the buffalo. Tribes that had knowledge of, traded for items, or occasional contact; they used another tribes vocabulary. Same goes for wolves; Washington coastal tribes don’t have their own word for wolves, but use Nez Perce or Yakima word.
 

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I heard about it a while back, probably same Dirtman.

If there were suitable habitat/forage, we'd already have a thriving population, not the occasional traveler. They're not here in greater numbers for a reason.
 

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I heard about it a while back, probably same Dirtman.

If there were suitable habitat/forage, we'd already have a thriving population, not the occasional traveler. They're not here in greater numbers for a reason.
Could it be the WALL
 

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On one side, I think it would be cool.

But on the other, bison were replaced by soybeans and corn. Trying to reverse course is not simple or easy. And in some cases, not prudent.

The ripple effect of mankind is a factor that needs to be considered. Just because critters were here 150 years ago doesn't mean we should bring them back on a large scale.

If there's a big national park, where subdivisions are verboten, maybe there. But not across the board.
 
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Thank you for the articles, I've missed reading your conservation oriented postings. This would be neat to see and I'm supportive of it.

My philosophy as a conservation minded hunter is to be a steward for every species, every place, and every habitat. If I have a chance to support an effort like this, I view it as my duty.

I do think getting to the point where we could offer limited hunts on this species, based on best available data, would be a good thing, and perhaps encourage success / tolerance.

As others have mentioned, why not elephants, etc? Those are actually fair points in a way.

One of my favorite books ever is 'Where do camels belong?' by Ken Thompson. To address the title specifically, we'd just as assume say camels belong in the Middle East, but camels evolved in the Americas and have been HERE for the majority of their time on this planet. They are 'relatively' new to the Middle East.

So, where do we stop? Do we reintroduce camels here? And that opens a different debate about native vs non-native which is addressed in the book I mentioned. Species and species ranges have never been fixed and the way we approach native species and their ranges is fixed...a frozen in time approach...even with a changing climate and loss of habitat. Should we introduce critically endangered species from other continents if they would find suitable habitat here and maintain a self sustaining population? or just let them go extinct?

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to these questions...the answer is largely based on societal views.
 
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