IFish Fishing Forum banner
  • Are you passionate about fishing? Would you like to write about topics that interest you and get paid for it? Read all about it here!
41 - 58 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
39,990 Posts
Sounds like a conversation I had with a neighbor in Astoria the other day. Wife was having a board meeting of the HOA at the house and told her I was going upstairs to take a shower. Was asked if I needed help. Said I wasn't sending out invitations. Next day I ran into he and his wife while out for a walk and we continued the dialog which got around to prison life etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,736 Posts
we took a helicopter in to land locked BLM long ago and the rancher was so mad he called the state cops they came out and told him we came in on a chopper in they didn't believe us and hung out until my buddy came back and picked up our bucks and us up. But my buddy didn't leave it at that we had the rancher sited for hunter harassment and one that battle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
we took a helicopter in to land locked BLM long ago and the rancher was so mad he called the state cops they came out and told him we came in on a chopper in they didn't believe us and hung out until my buddy came back and picked up our bucks and us up. But my buddy didn't leave it at that we had the rancher sited for hunter harassment and one that battle
Can you provide any details such the name of the landowner, year, investigating officer, etc? I try to keep track of cases like this and I’ve never heard of this one and I’d like to check it out for myself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
238 Posts
Can you provide any details such the name of the landowner, year, investigating officer, etc? I try to keep track of cases like this and I’ve never heard of this one and I’d like to check it out for myself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I'm calling BS on your attempt at calling BS. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,946 Posts
Geesh, this thread took an interesting turn. It’s pretty common knowledge that you can use a helicopter to access public land as long as that land is not deemed a wilderness. I had a lengthy conversation with the forest service about this 2 years ago as I was trying to reach a very difficult area in Oregon. Where I wanted to go was a wilderness so there was a 200-foot elevation cap for any aircraft apparently. So my plan was scrapped.

Landlocked public land is still public. As long as you access it legally it’s fair game. Transportation to and from the field is not deemed guiding even if your transport includes a dead animal. A helicopter has a legal license to transport you. BLM rarely has wilderness areas (unless it’s a WSA) and they seem to be much less concerned with the helicopter usage than the FS.

tc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
I'm calling BS on your attempt at calling BS. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Uh huh, I see your point. Except that I’ve written multiple papers about common hunter myths regarding private lands and landowners and this fits well within a paper I’m working on regarding the common accusations by hunters that landowners are commonly posting government owned land and herding animals onto their private, neither of which is supported by many verifiable incidents or case data.

This also sounds remarkably similar to a ranch that has actually had one of the only documented incidents of this nature, including where hunters had an entire camp flown into an inholding, including an ATV. This ranch also attempted to cite me for accessing the same BLM using a raft across other BLM....so yes, I’m skeptical of this story but I’m more interested in seeing if there’s something that can be included in this paper than I am proving that he is inaccurate in his recollection.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
238 Posts
Uh huh, I see your point. Except that I’ve written multiple papers about common hunter myths regarding private lands and landowners and this fits well within a paper I’m working on regarding the common accusations by hunters that landowners are commonly posting government owned land and herding animals onto their private, neither of which is supported by many verifiable incidents or case data.

This also sounds remarkably similar to a ranch that has actually had one of the only documented incidents of this nature, including where hunters had an entire camp flown into an inholding, including an ATV. This ranch also attempted to cite me for accessing the same BLM using a raft across other BLM....so yes, I’m skeptical of this story but I’m more interested in seeing if there’s something that can be included in this paper than I am proving that he is inaccurate in his recollection.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I do appreciate your work, getting the truth of the matter is important. My previous post was all in good fun really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
I do appreciate your work, getting the truth of the matter is important. My previous post was all in good fun really.
Not at all...you make a fair point.

I can’t afford to chase ghosts....if he has a real story, he’ll come back with enough evidence that I can track it down. If not, well.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
Geesh, this thread took an interesting turn. It’s pretty common knowledge that you can use a helicopter to access public land as long as that land is not deemed a wilderness. I had a lengthy conversation with the forest service about this 2 years ago as I was trying to reach a very difficult area in Oregon. Where I wanted to go was a wilderness so there was a 200-foot elevation cap for any aircraft apparently. So my plan was scrapped.

Landlocked public land is still public. As long as you access it legally it’s fair game. Transportation to and from the field is not deemed guiding even if your transport includes a dead animal. A helicopter has a legal license to transport you. BLM rarely has wilderness areas (unless it’s a WSA) and they seem to be much less concerned with the helicopter usage than the FS.

tc
We had a copter drop us into a "wildlife" area(not wilderness) on USFS land. There was an outfitter camp nearby. Our group has been hunting there since the 60's. Copter pilot was cited for guiding without a license. Assuming was predicated by the outfitter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,219 Posts
We had a copter drop us into a "wildlife" area(not wilderness) on USFS land. There was an outfitter camp nearby. Our group has been hunting there since the 60's. Copter pilot was cited for guiding without a license. Assuming was predicated by the outfitter
Laws have rules built in. If a Helicopter rider answered a question wrong. The ticket is issued. I would guess the LE asked a question like this. Who decided to drop you in this area? Hunter responds, Pilot picked the area. Pilot gets ticket. If the answer had been, I the hunter, picked the area from long study of the topo and ownership maps of the area. No ticket for pilot. If you hire a pilot, do not point fingers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reel fortunate

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,946 Posts
We had a copter drop us into a "wildlife" area(not wilderness) on USFS land. There was an outfitter camp nearby. Our group has been hunting there since the 60's. Copter pilot was cited for guiding without a license. Assuming was predicated by the outfitter
I called a buddy (retired OSP game officer) this morning and posed the question to him. I explained how I would pay a helicopter operator to drop me off and pick me up if that would create a violation. His answer was pretty definitive, “unless there have been changes in the verbiage regarding use of aircraft, I don’t see any issues with it since he’s not guiding or giving direction to an animal.”

I also agree with Baltz that the manner of which you answer a question is relevant to the operator and could easily be misconstrued. Furthermore knowing any restrictions with USFS and BLM will be important. As an example two years ago USFS told me I could not land on “non-wilderness” areas not already designated as an airstrip. So I asked the question, “what if I don’t land?” Which a helicopter can hover. The person didn’t like that question and said she wouldn’t advise it but stopped short of saying I could not do it.

Short answer is you better have all of your info carefully vetted prior to doing this type of hunt but on the flip side could be a good way to get into some hard to reach areas.

tc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,659 Posts
I called a buddy (retired OSP game officer) this morning and posed the question to him. I explained how I would pay a helicopter operator to drop me off and pick me up if that would create a violation. His answer was pretty definitive, “unless there have been changes in the verbiage regarding use of aircraft, I don’t see any issues with it since he’s not guiding or giving direction to an animal.”

I also agree with Baltz that the manner of which you answer a question is relevant to the operator and could easily be misconstrued. Furthermore knowing any restrictions with USFS and BLM will be important. As an example two years ago USFS told me I could not land on “non-wilderness” areas not already designated as an airstrip. So I asked the question, “what if I don’t land?” Which a helicopter can hover. The person didn’t like that question and said she wouldn’t advise it but stopped short of saying I could not do it.

Short answer is you better have all of your info carefully vetted prior to doing this type of hunt but on the flip side could be a good way to get into some hard to reach areas.

tc
OSP may not consider it guiding, however, the pilot will get the ticket from the BLM or USFS regardless of how the question is answered. His ticket would be for conducting a commercial activity on federal lands. Uncle Sam wants his cut everytime money is generated from public lands except where exempted by law.

For reference I'd start with 36 CFR § 251.50 which requires a permit (aka special use authorization):
All uses of National Forest System lands, improvements, and resources....Before conducting a special use, individuals or entities must submit a proposal to the authorized officer and must obtain a special use authorization from the authorized officer, unless that requirement is waived by paragraphs (c) through (e)(3) of this section.

Although there's a few exemptions like for non-commercial use (ie camping, horseback riding, etc) none would apply to a commercial helicopter flight.

The question about a hover drop is an interesting one. However, it's likely it would still be considered a deliver and subject to a permit (it certainly wouldn't be allowed in a wilderness area for example). From a more practical perspective the drop is easy but there's very limited options to load your gear and game for the ride out without connecting the ground and the helicopter.

Honestly. In many cases the government would issue you a permit fairly easily. There would be a fee for the permit but it's not a lot and it would likely be exempt from cost recovery.

This is me speaking from my personal perspective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
Whew, this has really taken a sharp 90 degree turn. This was in a designated "Wildlife" area - not wilderness. I will tell you that when we spoke to LE afterwards we explained we hired the copter to drop us into our spot. It was not his choice or area or guided. Our group had taken copters in there before and it has always been contentious with local land owners and outfitters. The first couple copters we contacts explained they didn't have the proper USFS permit plus they didn't want to pi$$ off the locals or the USFS who they occasionally worked for. Our guy said he had the proper permit(and he did). My take is the licensed outfitter who had started a camp near our old campsite(from the 60's which doesn't give us any more privilege anyone else just don't know why he would set up so close) the last few years got angry.
 
41 - 58 of 58 Posts
Top