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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This seems top be a subject of debate, so here are some numbers I found for dam power production:

The big guy, Grand Coulee: 6500 Megawatts

John Day Dam: 2100 megawatts
Dalles: 1800 megawatts
Bonneville: 700 megawatts

Now for the Snake River Dams:

Little Goose: 810-900 megawatts
Lower Monumental: 810-930 megawatts
Lower Granite: 810-930 megawatts
Ice Harbor: 605 megawatts

It takes about 1000 megawatts to run a city the size of Portland
 

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Those numbers seem to me to show that the dams are a little more important then people put on.
 

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My car is important to me, too, but that doesn't mean that it is good for the environment. I guess it's easy to complain about it, but solutions are harder to come by. Does anyone know if there is any group with a real plan for replacing the power generation of the Snake river dams? How many wind turbines would it take? What other optionns are there? Have there been any solid, unbiased economic studies done? Rail vs. barged freight comparisons? This issue has so many questions. I know that the dams should come out, but how do we justify it (besides the obvious - fish)? And how do we pay for it? Unforunately, it will be alot of years before saving the salmon will be justification enough to take down the dams. There has to be an effective master plan ready to go, out there, somewhere.

D.
 

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Mr. Carp,

Those numbers seem to me to show that the dams are a little more important then people put on.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Nope.

You need to look at actual output. Total potential is not of much use. Kind of like saying you car can do 120 mph and then trying to use that for what is your efficency (miles per gallon).

As you saw from the actual numbers, the four Snake River dams produce about 500MW and recent windpower installations (last 3 years) were about 600MW so Snake River dams are not significant or needed source of electric power.

Brion
 

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I want to see the maintenence bill in a few years for those million windmills installed.
 

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Mr. Carp,

I want to see the maintenence bill in a few years for those million windmills installed.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Ah...you mean now that your original misconception about the need for the power production of the Snake River dams as been dealt with...you'd like to change the subject <grin>.

Brion
 

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All these posts about dams seem to try to address what we are going to do about the absolute disaster that will be caused by the removal of dams on the Columbia and Snake, et al.

Our great grandchildren will be long dead before dams, huge multi-billion dollar agriculture projects that feed millions and international treaties are breached.

That said I don't mind spending millions more (with the jobs and other boosts to the local economies) that finding reasonable answers to the fish problems would require.
 

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Originally posted by corkyking:
Our great grandchildren will be long dead before dams, huge multi-billion dollar agriculture projects that feed millions and international treaties are breached
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Ain't ever, ever gonna happen...
 

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Corkyking,

Our great grandchildren will be long dead before dams, huge multi-billion dollar agriculture projects that feed millions and international treaties are breached
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Just to be clear, Snake River dams don't "feed millions". The expensive subsidized crops grown in the desert with expensive subsidized water, transported with expensive subsidized barge systesm are not really competitive or marketable with the huge existing agricultural surpluses.

As far as jobs, because so many resources are wasted on the subsidized water and crops, the Snake River dams are actually drags on the economy.

There is no real, sustainable economy around the Snake River dams.

That was the point of the RAND study. Much more economic growth and much more sustainable economic growth with the Snake River in it's original form.

That doesn't even get into the jobs created with the tax resources now wasted subsidizing the Snake River dams "economy".

It's a huge welfare project for a few corporations.

Brion
 

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so why aren`t they breached yet brionlutz, master of know all? couldn`t be because all the scientific/NMFS were inconsistant? the truth to all is that it is too big a gamble, no one knows for sure what the outcome would be. How come you won`t answer WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING? you working for save our salmon? who were the ones studying the breaching? this forum...from you is the first I have heard of RAND on this issue....which you can`t blame they are just an independant reveiw, which were full of inconsistencies which is one reason why they have not breached and probably will never do.
 

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It would be instructive to go back and look at the promises made in the past in similar situations. For instance, when the Redwood National Park was in the proposal stage the proponents claimed the loss of timber industry jobs caused by creation of the park would be more than offset by increases in tourism and tourism-related jobs in the area. But after 25 years, my understanding is the anticipated tourist jobs have not materialized in the numbers promised while the lost woods and mill jobs were real...and caused significant hardships for many that endure to this day.

A commonly used deception in environmental economics is failure to consider the declining value of a commodity (like a salmon) as numbers acquired or obtained increase. A salmon might be worth $100 to an angler (he would pay that much to catch one). But after catching the first salmon the value of another fish diminishes rapidly...to perhaps $35. The trend continues with the 3rd fish worth less than the 2nd...maybe $25...until some base price is arrived at...the commodity value...maybe $10 per fish. But in calculating the benefits of an action such as removing dams proponents often predict an increase of X number of fish then multiply that number by $100 (from example, above), instead of a weighted average value - perhaps $12/fish - to arrive at a wildly inflated statement of "benefits".
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here is a funny story about the dams: A while back the Seattle city council passed a resolution calling for the Army Corp of Engineers to conduct a study about removal of the Snake River Dams. Many people in Eastern Washington were agitated by this move, but the council was rightously persistant in pursuing the matter. Then, a couple of months later, at another meeting, the Eastern Wqshington town of Moses Lake came forward with a new proposal. The new proposal called for the Corp of Engineers to look into removing the Seattle area Ballard Locks (which connect Lake Washington to Puget Sound). Such action, it was stated, would lower Lake Washington 12 feet,would free up two rivers, would allow the Black River to flow once again, and would allow hundreds of thousands of Sockeye salmon to migrate unencumbered to the Cedar River.

A few weeks later, according to the legend, the Seattle City council withdrew their Snake River petition.
 

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Have we discussed the other alternatives?

1. Coal-fired generators: non-renewable, highly pollutive, expensive.

2. Natural gas-fired generators: expensive, not as pollutive, expensive.

3. Wind generators: renewable, efficient when the wind blows, very expensive, takes huge expanses of land to house, high bird mortality.

4. Nuclear: don't go there.

5. Hydroelectric generators: renewable resource, cheapest, provides irrigation, clean, provides recreation opportunities, shipping lanes, gives Dampainter a job.

I have mulled the possibility of dam breaching over many times myself. But, in reality, we are a growing race that needs such a clean, renewable resource to generate our power. We are very spoiled here in the Northwest with such low power prices and take them for granted. I, for one, am very glad that I don't have to pay the prices and breathe the pollution that those outside our region do. It's not just my power bill that matters, it's also the businesses that process my food and other goods that benefit, and in the end, we do too. There are many places in the good 'ol USofA that use the other forms of generation that I don't care to live in so I choose to live here in the NW and accept some of the tradeoffs of cheap power and other benefits of hydro power.
 

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dampainter,

I work at a dam, what do you do for a living?...we have not lost.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Not sure the relevance of your working at "a dam" to the question of whether the Snake River dams do more harm than good and are an economic drag on the region.

This is Ifish.net, not Idam.net.

If you are interested in restoring the salmon the Snake River dams have to go.

We know that besides restoring the salmon, the removal of the dams will provide an economic boost to the region and cut the huge costs associated with subsidizing the Snake River dams and the agriculture and transport system associated with them.

Brion
 

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HaHaHa, here you go again Brion. I have not changed my view and I never will with facts that you keep sharing. I was saying that I want to see the maintenence bill because they windmills are a waste of time. Nobody talks about that. I would much rather live with one dam, then 5000 acres of windmills that are so beautiful to look at. I have two questions for you Mr. Brion Lutz since you want to keep trying to discredit each and every person on this board who doesn't agree with your point of view that I sure don't understand. 1.) Why can't you answer dampainters question about what you do??? You keep dodging the question and ridiculing everyone else that doesn't agree with you and it is getting ridiculous. Most respond to your questions on here even if it is from a point of view you don't agree with. 2.) What is your stane anyway? I sure can't figure it out. You don't like loggers. You don't like farmers. You don't like dams. I am honestly trying to figure out where you stand. :shrug:
 

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Mr. Carp,

I have not changed my view and I never will with facts that you keep sharing.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Yes...I know your views and dampainter's are not based on facts. I don't really expect your views to change once you see the facts since your original views were not based on facts.

However, I think it is important to show that the facts, the data and studies are very much in favor of removing the Snake River dams.

I was s saying that I want to see the maintenence bill because they windmills are a waste of time. Nobody talks about that.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">And I was saying your views are not based on facts. Please tell us about the maintenance bills on power generation windmills. Or is this another example of faith based belief in dams <grin>

What is your stane anyway?
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I'm leaning toward the Olympic golden cedar this year...5 year guarantee.

You don't like loggers.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You seem to be confusing destructive logging practices with people.

You don't like farmers.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">You have the same problem with destructive farm practices.

You don't like dams.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I love Glen Canyon dam...but that should come out also....we call it tough love.

Brion
 

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GSA,

For instance, when the Redwood National Park was in the proposal stage the proponents claimed the loss of timber industry jobs caused by creation of the park would be more than offset by increases in tourism and tourism-related jobs in the area.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">It might be more instructive to not "remember" things that didn't happen and then try and use them as examples in real life.

As for the "tourist dollars", tried to get into Yellowstone and Yosemite in August? Reason that they are so packed (aka tourist dollars) is that there are so few places left.

Which by the way was the reason for the beginning of the National Park System. You might want to read history of Theodore Roosevelt so you have some real "memories" to add to those "recoverd memories".

Brion
 
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