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Discussion Starter #1
Need some info.

When camping, I have an elder family member that always burns plastic waste( cups, liquer bottles, plates , bags, etc) in the fire. I am opposed to this and tell them. I also know plastic waste has what ?..a half life of like 8 trillian years ain't it? And can also leach chemicals in our landfills.

Which truly is worse in the long run ? Burning it or storing it. I need some of this gangs intellectual firepower here. The elder claims that if convinced with real facts one over the other is worse he will comply. Not looking for legalaties or moralities ,,, but hard facts. Anything else isn't going to change an 80 sumthins behavior in a private arena.
 

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Okay, here's the deal - - - you can offer him an opportunity to make twice (well, actually three times . . . ) the difference.

Here is a 60 sumthins guy that will change his ways if your family elder will change his. I recycle all plastic at home but have considered it too much trouble at camp. My brother's and my plastic often gets burned or put in with the other trash. So, get his agreement to let you handle the plastics and, within reason ('really messy stuff will probably still go into the trash @ camp), I will rinse-out and separate-bag plastics at camp for recycling at home.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, with all respect, those reasons for not burning soesn't answer my question. Landfilling it is just as bad, and throwing it away in trash receptacles often results in burning it anyway. That publication does nothing other than tell us how bad plastic, and the waste of, is, but that isn't going to change anytime soon.

So does anyone have facts and research on which is worse or better?

Maybe not, looks like not. Just bad period.

As far as taking care of it for him, your reply not withstanding with regards to subject, We do what we can but we ain't always there. We do things during the day and night. He's in camp, especially hunting camp. SO can't stop that.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ok, thanks CB, that will help make a case. However,

Open burning #1, number 2 is wood burning homes. If we are having a campfire, which would be very similar, whats a couple or three plastic bottles? Sounds like burning period is harmful. Burning anything. Even my marshmellows. I still don't a solid reason to do one over the either. Not looking at it from both sides. One can pick a side based on how one feels morally and others but not based on facts. Apparently the facts say all is bad. If we place trash in a container at a random campground while traveling how are we to know what type of incenerator it is going to end up at?
 

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Davy, I second this request for "Why not to burn plastic".

Bill does it at home. I'd love to find an article that it is bad for birds. He LOVES his birds, and if he knew.... anyhow... I gag every time he burns plastic. It's just awful! But-- he remains unconvinced.

(He is not 80, either!)

Jen
 

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Well, with all respect, those reasons for not burning soesn't answer my question. Landfilling it is just as bad, and throwing it away in trash receptacles often results in burning it anyway. That publication does nothing other than tell us how bad plastic, and the waste of, is, but that isn't going to change anytime soon.

So does anyone have facts and research on which is worse or better?

Maybe not, looks like not. Just bad period.

As far as taking care of it for him, your reply not withstanding with regards to subject, We do what we can but we ain't always there. We do things during the day and night. He's in camp, especially hunting camp. SO can't stop that.


​
When burned, PVC plastic forms dioxins, a highly toxic group of chemicals that build up in the food
chain,can cause cancer and harms the immune and reproductive systems.

​
PVC is the leadingcontributor of chlorine to four combustion sources— municipal solid waste incinerators,
backyard burn barrels, medical waste incinerators and secondary copper smelters—that account for an estimated
80% of dioxin air emissions (USEPA).

Don’t Burn It: The Hazards of Burning PVC Waste​
​
More than 100 municipal waste incinerators in the U.S. burn 500 to 600 million pounds of PVC each year,
forming highly toxic dioxins and releasing toxic additives to the air and in ash disposed of on land.

​
Open burning of solid waste, which contains PVC, is a major source of dioxin air emissions. Backyard
burning of PVC household trash is unrestricted in Michigan and Pennsylvania, partially restricted in 30 states

and banned in 18 states.


...........................................................


Not sure about you, but to me this means burning plastic is very bad for the environment.
 

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burning 500-600 million pouds a year is probably not good...tossing a plastic water bottle in the fire probably won't do much more than stink for a minute.

i burn my trash when camping..it's either that or haul it home and pay to take it to the waste transfer station (landfill).
 

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Discussion Starter #11
out of context and singularly, yes, it is bad, but based on the whole picture, heck BBQ'ing our tuna steaks and heating our homes is bad. And yeah, Jennie it does stink. I am looking for argumentative facts that one is worse than the other. The second paragraph of the above warnings state that if we throw it out-it is probably going to get burnt anyway. It make's a case for getting rid of plastic, but not for burning versus throwing it away. Maybe as a world , maybe, but not on an individual basis. That doesn't make a case for the occaisional burnt plastic in a campfire, or like Bill, which my dad does the same, he burns his plastic at home. Heck if it burns -he burns it. The only thing that gets garbaged is metal and such. But it does stink.

Wife and I recycle and landfill everything, cept in wet months we will occaisonally have a burnpile of brush we have cut down on the property.

Thanks for the replies, but it appears there isn't a definitive answer. Not one you could change someones logical and analytical mind with.
 

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Two givens from the posts above.....

1. Burning plastic emits dioxin (post #9)
2. Plastic burned in a municiple waste incinerator emits orders of magnitude less dioxin then open burning. (post #6)

So...... besides eliminating the stink that anyone camping nearby would find obnoxious, it would seem that packing the plastic home for burning by a municiple waste incinerator would release less dioxin into the environment.
 

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Read the references, according to the EPA the ash from burning plastic is not suitable for spreading on the ground due to contaminates, do you pack out the ashes?.

Notice also that open burning produces 50x more dioxin than municiple solid waste incinerators, that does not include the toxic particulates generated.

If discharge waste in the wilds, irritating your neighbors, and exposing everyone to uncontrolled pollution is not an issue for you then burn away.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
:agree: yeap, that does put a piece of the puzzle together, very good. Provided we pack it home where we KNOW it is going to MSW incerator. Not the local campground trash bin.

Not sure that will be enough but, over campside beverages anything might happen.
 

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I heard from a friend of a relative that an aquaintence heard empty sealed liquor bottles may, or may not, be fun to burn.

My dad is 87 and owns a burn barrel.:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
yes, definently wanna take the cap off. We always have a ceremony for the fallen soldier and the numerous good deeds the fella gave up before falling empty and thrown to the ashes
 

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That chart on burn rates was not broken down into per capita data so it is meaningless in this argument. I do agree that municipal incinerators have scrubbers that collect much of the byproducts of burning. The burn is also done at a hgher temperature and under control so that the burn is much more complete. So my choice would be to put it into the garbage and not burn it.

The report on PVC's stretches every fact about the plastic that could possibly be stretched. As usual read with one eye closed because it is only half right. I will save you all the agony of a dissection.

Not knowing whether the trash will be burned or buried means that it's probably a wash between the trash can or the fire pit because if it's buried, it's probably more of a hazard than if it's burned in my opion.

There's a lot of people attacking plastics that have little understanding of the benefits and the disadvantages and most of the time they get them all mixed up.

We definitely have a better world through chemistry, we just need to improve our vigilence about what we produce and what we don't reuse.

Davy, it's good to see that you're a thinker and not a lemming.
 

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The chart also wasn't broken down regarding materials openly burned. If it was plastic would take another hit.

In China the guys on the street pay you to take your trash....
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Not knowing whether the trash will be burned or buried means that it's probably a wash between the trash can or the fire pit because if it's buried, it's probably more of a hazard than if it's burned in my opion.


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The above paragraph was exactly my question which really hasn't been addresses directly. I also think similar to alot of what else was posted by the same.

Everyones opines here are generous and I really appreciate them. But, well, here's a shot at an illustration;

4 buddies go camping. 3 have driven their own camping/trailer rig. 1 has a tent/pickup and the boat. All have propane burning lanterns. All got there burning gasoline or diesel in the rigs. All will burn gasoline while in the boat. One pickup is loaded with firewood cut with a gasoline burning chainsaw for the evenings entertainment and morning warmth in a burning campfire. 2 of the rigs have gasoline burning generators. All have battery powered flashlights for that walk to the privy. (Ever seen the not so ecco battery manufacturing processes?) They all use burning newspaper or gasoline to start each evenings and morning burning fire. They will use burning newspaper to start the burning charcoal for the evenings meals. And all will **** alot for sure.

But burning a few plastic items in the campfire will be excessively bad for the earth, harmful and foul smelling to others? How many burns was that?

In WA , doesn't most waste go to a solid landfill along the Columbia river in Eastern WA and doesn't Oregon do the same on our side of the river? Isn't most waste in our area buried and not incenerated? I don't know, anyone?

Marion county had an incerator but they blew it up with confiscated fireworks.

Anyway.... Plastics buried in landfills? Or individually burnt on camping trips? That's the, or was, the question.

thanks all.
 

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The above paragraph was exactly my question which really hasn't been addresses directly. I also think similar to alot of what else was posted by the same.

Everyones opines here are generous and I really appreciate them. But, well, here's a shot at an illustration;

4 buddies go camping. 3 have driven their own camping/trailer rig. 1 has a tent/pickup and the boat. All have propane burning lanterns. All got there burning gasoline or diesel in the rigs. All will burn gasoline while in the boat. One pickup is loaded with firewood cut with a gasoline burning chainsaw for the evenings entertainment and morning warmth in a burning campfire. 2 of the rigs have gasoline burning generators. All have battery powered flashlights for that walk to the privy. (Ever seen the not so ecco battery manufacturing processes?) They all use burning newspaper or gasoline to start each evenings and morning burning fire. They will use burning newspaper to start the burning charcoal for the evenings meals. And all will **** alot for sure.

But burning a few plastic items in the campfire will be excessively bad for the earth, harmful and foul smelling to others? How many burns was that?

In WA , doesn't most waste go to a solid landfill along the Columbia river in Eastern WA and doesn't Oregon do the same on our side of the river? Isn't most waste in our area buried and not incenerated? I don't know, anyone?

Marion county had an incerator but they blew it up with confiscated fireworks.

Anyway.... Plastics buried in landfills? Or individually burnt on camping trips? That's the, or was, the question.

thanks all.

Well Davy, it all boils down to this, is burning PVC plastic in a campfire, and releasing dioxins, chlorine, and a bunch of other nasty stuff into the atmosphere a good idea?
My both eyes open answer is, no it's not a good idea.
But you seem to want to argue the point.
Recycle plastic, if we didn't there wouldn't be any polar fleece.
 
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