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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
“The cause is the parasite cryptobia, which spreads during the low water conditions seen this autumn, as fish get concentrated into smaller pools and are unable to swim upstream, officials said.”

Low water condition is not saying lack of rain. Lack of rain played a part in that, but also the morning fog that plagues the coast evaporating in midday sun that was once a forested hillside does too.

My yurt outside of pacific city is in constant rain in the fall, nestled under the large fir forest that surrounds it. The sky will be clear but it is a constant rain under the canopy. So yes, forest management did play a role in the low water conditions when we face a November of low rainfall.


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Ya, about the yurt getting wet. Trees suck up ground water and 'exhale' it into the atmosphere. What doesn't evaporate can end up as drop that fall to the forest floor. It doesn't mean there's much water flowing into a nearby creek just because there's a damp ground.
 

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The creek and swampy area at the bottom of the area I call hell would disagree. Considering the next drainage over is a mix of clear cuts and pasture is dry and arid.


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According to th ODFW spokesman, "But northwest Oregon has seen historically dry conditions this season — it was the fifth- driest November in 125 years of records for Portland and Astoria, according to the National Weather Service."

Maybe ask him?
Of course it is a dry year, no one is debating that. But, your argument is that the Wilson salmon are dying because of lack of rain. There is something else besides the lack of rain that is causing the die off and that is the parasite.

If it was lack of rain alone, we would be seeing the same die off in the Nestucca, Trask, Siletz, Alsea and Siuslaw, which is why I asked you why aren't they dying in those rivers. For you to respond that it is dry does not address the real issue nor the lack of a die off in those other rivers affected by the same lack of rain. Try again, man, you might come up with something better the next time you respond.
 

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In related news the American Forest Resource Council (AFRC) brought lawsuits against both the expansion of the Cascade Siskiyou National Monument and the 2016 BLM Western Oregon Resource Management plans. On 12/2/19 Judge Richard Leon ruled that both plans are invalid - not enough logging. AFRC is a logging industry lobbying group.

https://amforest.org/federal-court-decisions-on-oc-lands-deliver-major-victories-for-rural-oregon/

Looks like the fish lose again! :passout:
Of course, does it ever happen any other way. Oregon and Washington are primed to drive salmon into extinction. It is their mission. The citizens of those states are in complete agreement that they are better off with dead and no salmon. Then, there will be nothing in the way of the timber industry. Who will care if the streams are loaded with mud and debris with no salmon to occupy them. Cut 'em down and make some money. Let's do it, the hell with salmon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
Of course it is a dry year, no one is debating that. But, your argument is that the Wilson salmon are dying because of lack of rain. There is something else besides the lack of rain that is causing the die off and that is the parasite.

If it was lack of rain alone, we would be seeing the same die off in the Nestucca, Trask, Siletz, Alsea and Siuslaw, which is why I asked you why aren't they dying in those rivers. For you to respond that it is dry does not address the real issue nor the lack of a die off in those other rivers affected by the same lack of rain. Try again, man, you might come up with something better the next time you respond.
I don't accept the notion that all river systems are equal. ODFW said the die off in the Wilson was due to lack of rain. You are certainly free to reject that as the casual element.
 

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I don't accept the notion that all river systems are equal. ODFW said the die off in the Wilson was due to lack of rain. You are certainly free to reject that as the casual element.
Did you read the whole story? Or, are you unwilling to consider the fact that the parasite in the Wilson might be due to some human induced cause? I am not saying it is, it might just be an oddball occurrence, but there is that dairy industry on the banks of the Wilson. I am also not saying that the parasite is related to the dairy industry. I am only saying that the fish are being attacked by a parasite that does not seem to be present in other dry rivers in enough numbers to cause a similar die-off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
Did you read the whole story? Or, are you unwilling to consider the fact that the parasite in the Wilson might be due to some human induced cause? I am not saying it is, it might just be an oddball occurrence, but there is that dairy industry on the banks of the Wilson. I am also not saying that the parasite is related to the dairy industry. I am only saying that the fish are being attacked by a parasite that does not seem to be present in other dry rivers in enough numbers to cause a similar die-off.
Yes, man bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
Did you read the whole story? Or, are you unwilling to consider the fact that the parasite in the Wilson might be due to some human induced cause? I am not saying it is, it might just be an oddball occurrence, but there is that dairy industry on the banks of the Wilson. I am also not saying that the parasite is related to the dairy industry. I am only saying that the fish are being attacked by a parasite that does not seem to be present in other dry rivers in enough numbers to cause a similar die-off.
If the dairy industry in the Tillamook drainage is responsible for the die off, why isn't the Trask, Tillamook, Kichis and Miami rivers also having the same problem? Still looks like low flow/lack of rain is the casual element of the Wilson's problem.
 

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If the dairy industry in the Tillamook drainage is responsible for the die off, why isn't the Trask, Tillamook, Kichis and Miami rivers also having the same problem? Still looks like low flow/lack of rain is the casual element of the Wilson's problem.
That is a good point about the dairy industry which is why I did not say that the dairy industry is responsible for the parasite that is also causing the die-off in the Wilson. But, there is some reason why the parasite is present in greater numbers in the Wilson than the other rivers where it is dry also. Maybe the genetics of Wilson chinook make them more susceptible to the parasite than the chinook of the other dry rivers. I have no idea why you continue to deny that the parasite is playing a role in causing the die-off.

Your continual denial of the role of the parasite is even more puzzling given what was said in an article that you yourself posted in post #74 of this thread. Here is a quote from that article:

"A recent die-off of fall chinook salmon in the lower Wilson River has led to a fishing closure effective December 7 to 31.
At least 200 salmon, and likely more, were found dead in the river near Tillamook before getting a chance to spawn, according to the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife.
The cause is the parasite cryptobia, which spreads during the low water conditions seen this autumn, as fish get concentrated into smaller pools and are unable to swim upstream, officials said."


Here is the headline from the article;


Salmon die-off in Wilson River from parasite leads to fishing closure, hits population



So, if you want to deny again that the parasite is the ultimate cause of the dead chinook in the Wilson, you do so at the risk of destroying any credibility you have. But, be my guest, if you choose to do so.
 

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You guys can both be right :wink:. The parasite was present, for whatever reason. The low flows created a crowded, lower oxygen situation in which the disease thrived.


BC
Of course, I never denied that a lack of rain was a causative factor. It is whether the parasite is a causative factor that is at the heart of the dispute between me and Mr. Garibaldi. I don't know why he does not want to acknowledge the role of the parasite in any way, shape or form. Perhaps he fears that it might be discovered that presence of the parasite could be related to some human activity. He does not like to acknowledge that humans have anything to do with the deterioration of Oregon's salmon runs. Just a guess on my part because his own article indicates the parasite is involved. He could have explained for himself, but he has said he has now quit this thread.

If I were him, I would welcome the parasite as a causative factor, as it would give some the ability to argue that the deterioration of Oregon salmon runs is due to natural forces and not anything that humans do. That damn Mother Nature always killing her offspring.
 

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I believe the appeals court will overturn that jury's verdict and award of money. Which as you say is taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.

While various county commissioners and attorney DiLorenzo are all in on this fleecing of Oregonians, the politicos are strangely silent about how they gave the biggest corporate timber owners a tax break that costs those timber counties (mostly the same ones in the lawsuit) around $70-million per year:

Until the late 1990s, private timber land owners all paid a forest severance tax, which generated revenue for county and state governments to use on public services. In 1999, the Oregon Legislature eliminated this tax on private timber owners with more than 5,000 acres of land, resulting in a drop in state revenue of $70 million a year.

Today, the primary tax paid by large industrial forest owners is the Forest Harvest Tax. Funds generated from this tax funds firefighting efforts through the Oregon Department of Forestry (ODF) and the Oregon Forest Resources Institute (OFRI) - a quasi-government agency with a mission to promote logging and the lax logging laws we have here in Oregon (such as the ads they purchase on OPB TV; ads that show trees and not a single stump). Forest Harvest Tax funds do not go to county or state governments to fund services.
Well, here we are, 2.5 years later.
That was an easy prediction to make.

The attorney's (and the county's and timber organizations funding the attorneys) strategy of getting a jury that didn't understand contract law and could be swayed by emotions worked at the first level of jurisprudence.

Thankfully, Oregon's appellant judges FULLY UNDERSTAND contract law and had only to rule on a single issue.

Predictably, the plaintiff counties' attorney's will encourage an appeal because, well, those counties haven't yet been totally bled dry by legal fees...
 
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That money is a big deal in counties where they are heavily dependent on it. Take Tillamook county. Isn’t much left except logging and Tourism . Here’s an idea. Use some of that money to fix our horrible roads like Highway 6. It’s literally falling apart from slide activity and all the traffic. And not just Tillamook County roads either. It’s worse on the Washington County side. Kicker? Mine was a whole $48. This whole discussion is a joke. They’ll find a way to weasel out of it. Just sayin:(🇺🇸
 

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That money is a big deal in counties where they are heavily dependent on it. Take Tillamook county. Isn’t much left except logging and Tourism . Here’s an idea. Use some of that money to fix our horrible roads like Highway 6. It’s literally falling apart from slide activity and all the traffic. And not just Tillamook County roads either. It’s worse on the Washington County side. Kicker? Mine was a whole $48. This whole discussion is a joke. They’ll find a way to weasel out of it. Just sayin:(🇺🇸
Just yesterday, State Appeals Court struck this down. Counties are appealing to State Supreme Court.
 
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