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I don't do money or law so the details of how this is all accounted for are out of my scope. I attended a TED talk and what I got was the incentive to subscribe to this scheme is a lower power cost.
Hilarious! You describe this utopia that the entire planet should emulate then use the lame politician excuse 'I don't know the economics of anything.'

So, they charge at night when demand is low. But, if they're running solar then production capability is low as well; remember, it's dark at night. And what do they do when it's dark at night (i.e., solar panels are useless) and the wind isn't blowing (i.e., wind turbines are useless)? I guess no one goes to work the next day?

Me thinks your grand utopia plan needs a bit more research and testing in a real world environment on a scale that means something. Denmark has a population of 5.8M; there are cities in our country that have a larger population than the nation of Denmark. Oh, let's test it in LA then extrapolate that utopia to the other 330+ million people. Sounds half-baked to me,
 

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The problem with all power generation is storage. Power is instantaneous. The system only produces as much power as the demand. Adding storage (batteries with wheels, the headpool above a dam) is a way to store power when not much is being used for later when it is needed.
Again, you tout storing power when demand is low. But, if you're a proponent of solar as part of that generation mix, production is also down while demand is down. The whole argument is moot if you can't describe the economics.
 

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Guess you missed the detail about Denmark and wind turbines. Or maybe you missed the title of the thread.

Details man details.

Denmark has excess capacity at night. Since all adjacent potential customers who would buy power are in a similar time zone they don't need the power when there is extra.
 

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Guess you missed the detail about Denmark and wind turbines. Or maybe you missed the title of the thread.

Details man details.

Denmark has excess capacity at night. Since all adjacent potential customers who would buy power are in a similar time zone they don't need the power when there is extra.
Details matter. Let's say I have Lucid Air and charge it at night buying power from Salem Co-op. I drive into town and plug into a station supplied by PGE and drain some of that low cost juice back onto PGE's grid. Does PGE send me a check? Does it pay part of my bill at Salem Co-op? What if I charged up at a private company station while shopping and then bled off that juice to PGE or whomever?

If you can't explain how it would work, it won't. Interesting idea though for a place like China or North Korea where the government owns and controls all utilities and population.
 

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"If you can't explain how it would work, it won't. Interesting idea though for a place like China or North Korea where the government owns and controls all utilities and population."

Who Were the Luddites?

Your application is in the mail.

Yeah I guess we will leave the details to the professionals. You will have to ask whoever runs that gig here how it will work. The way I understand it in Denmark there is your HOME station and the one you subscribe to at WORK. Ideas are not perfected when they are in development. In an absolute black and white world I guess it is comforting to have it all figured out.

I'm pretty sure the Wright brothers did not have a 747 Jumbo jet in mind when they made an airplane out of bicycle parts. They most certainly did not have it all figured out.

Words emphasized to aid reading comprehension.
 
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"If you can't explain how it would work, it won't. Interesting idea though for a place like China or North Korea where the government owns and controls all utilities and population."

Who Were the Luddites?

Your application is in the mail.

Yeah I guess we will leave the details to the professionals. You will have to ask whoever runs that gig here how it will work. The way I understand it in Denmark there is your HOME station and the one you subscribe to at WORK. Ideas are not perfected when they are in development. In an absolute black and white world I guess it is comforting to have it all figured out.

I'm pretty sure the Wright brothers did not have a 747 Jumbo jet in mind when they made an airplane out of bicycle parts. They most certainly did not have it all figured out.

Words emphasized to aid reading comprehension.
If being a Luddite means not signing up to a multi-billion or trillion dollar scheme without knowing how it might work, I'll send in my application. You might see if this marvelous entity is accepting applications as well, be an early adopter. Might even get to be a Charter Member?
 

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Petroleum power has had 150 years to reduce costs and become affordable. Its not surprising many alternates don't make financial sense yet. But it doesn't meant it can't be, and shouldn't be invested in or used... or further developed. Gas engines/vehicles didn't have all the answers from day one, I think it would be silly to expect a "perfect process or nothing at all" from the get go. I do struggle with mandated consumer consumption of financially upside down products, every time you force something like this on the everyday consumer, you are implementing a tax on the middleclass and lower.
 

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Petroleum power has had 150 years to reduce costs and become affordable. Its not surprising many alternates don't make financial sense yet. But it doesn't meant it can't be, and shouldn't be invested in or used... or further developed. Gas engines/vehicles didn't have all the answers from day one, I think it would be silly to expect a "perfect process or nothing at all" from the get go. I do struggle with mandated consumer consumption of financially upside down products, every time you force something like this on the everyday consumer, you are implementing a tax on the middleclass and lower.
The math is far more sensible when externalities are factored in … which they never are at the pump. We can thank lobbyists for that, for pushing external costs onto society at large, as massive subsidies that keep market prices for gas and energy artificially low relative to true costs.

 

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The math is far more sensible when externalities are factored in … which they never are at the pump. We can thank lobbyists for that, for pushing external costs onto society at large, as massive subsidies that keep market prices for gas and energy artificially low relative to true costs.

Got a list of those subsidies that are exclusive to the oil industry?
 

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SSPey that is big old chewy pile of science right there. Thank you sir. I will read this later today. And yes I will risk having my assumptions and world views challenged by new information.

That's how you learn things. Or not .. just blame everything that challenges you on the clearly disreputable source that is challenging you.

There is alot to consider. We already know that many inconvenient details are glossed over by proponents of different forms of transport, energy and electrical supply. They go through it in this paper. Sadly many decisions are made because our politicians are for sale to the highest bidder. And when you think about it there is a form of socialism at work in our system of capitalism. Profits are privatized and consequences are socialized. This scenario has played out many times over the years. An industry makes a pile of money with help from friendly (and well compensated) politicians, they make a big mess and then walk away and we the people pay for the mess, health consequences and cleanup. Look at West Virginia and the mess the coal industry has made there. You can light your tap water on fire.

If you consider something and do a cost - benefit analysis many things widely accepted and that we do everyday make no sense at all unless you are directly benefitting from them.

Wind turbines, dams, EVs, petroleum and many other things all have consequences.

No one looks past their wallet.

Two words OIL WAR
 

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You’re either a very fast reader or simply like arguing for arguing’s sake. External costs vary by energy source, as explained in detail in the paper that I posted.
I scanned the link and couldn't make sense of it. Seemed like a lot of jargon. I was simply asking what you were referring to with your comment about, "..massive subsidies that keep market prices for gas and energy artificially low relative to true costs." I hear that comment quite often but have never had anyone list them. Since you used the phrase, I assume you know what they are. If you don't want to explain your comment, no problem. Just say so.
 

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Len Tesoro is Director of Land Products at Drillinginfo.

This article starts out with stating that reducing tax burden in not a subsidy.

Mmmm kay. With that logic I can have a clear conscience about the tax reduction I got when buying my two EVs. Booyah.
 

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Len Tesoro is Director of Land Products at Drillinginfo.

This article starts out with stating that reducing tax burden in not a subsidy.

Mmmm kay. With that logic I can have a clear conscience about the tax reduction I got when buying my two EVs. Booyah.
Good. No guilt. Glad you agree that tax credits to reduce liability is not a subsidy.
 

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I think I understand.
1--Offshore oil platforms= Good
2--Offshore wind platforms=Bad
3--Major oil spills in ocean=OK
4--Wind Turbines in ocean=Bad
5--Fukushima nuclear disaster=OK
6--Wind Turbines=Bad
7-- Oil spills killing fish, birds, mammals=OK
8--Wind Turbines killing birds=End of World as we know it.


I think I am beginning to understand, thanks guys.
Lefty
 

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While these sorts of debates swirl around in the US, the rest of the world has moved on. Wind and solar are by far the cheapest power sources now, much cheaper than gas or coal power. Hence almost all new power plants, worldwide, are wind or solar.

That's the collective decision of business people around the world. With few exceptions, coal or gas power is more expensive so not many plants are being built. Nuclear isn't remotely cost competitive with wind or solar.

The US is a laggard in the wind and solar industry. China and Europe decided 15 years ago to invest in wind and solar technology. It worked, and Europe and China absolutely dominate the manufacture of wind turbines and solar panels. The US buys their stuff, and they pocket the profits. Sad.

So whatever your opinions on green power, take note of what hard-nosed businessmen are doing in the rest of the world. It's not about subsidies, it's about cost. Cheapest wins, and that's wind and solar.
 

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That is the problem, they have 1800 Sq miles over the two proposed areas, those areas cover the whole tuna fishing grounds out of the southern ports. I am sure they will have large no travel zones around them, so hope everyone is ready to dodge wind turbines while trolling.Never once said any of that about drilling. We have plenty of land to drill on.

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That is the problem, they have 1800 Sq miles over the two proposed areas, those areas cover the whole tuna fishing grounds out of the southern ports. I am sure they will have large no travel zones around them, so hope everyone is ready to dodge wind turbines while trolling.Never once said any of that about drilling. We have plenty of land to drill on.

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We do have plenty of land to drill on. But, the lease holders won’t.🤷🏻
 

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In today's news:


Guess I could add this snippit: "Company had been planning to replace coal-fired boilers with gas and steam turbine units, but global events appear to have prompted a rethink for the time being. "
 
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