Life Jacket Law Poll
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There is already a law. I'm required to have a PFD for each person on board. And I do.
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3,673 Posts
I don't have a problem with people choosing not to wear life vests as long as it doesn't cost the rest of us any money or resources. Coast guard searches are expensive, but so few and far between that it's probably not an issue. The wrongful death lawsuits will sap some insurance money if there is a party who is found liable (like a charter service) but the costs of that are minimal and indirect in the form of higher insurance premiums.
I would vote for a law that requires them in dangerous conditions - kind of like a "chains required" for the pass when it's too snowy. I'd vote for a "lifejacket required" law for the bar and Ocean on boats 60 feet and shorter when there's a small craft advisory. Regardless, I'll be wearing mine more often.
I would vote for a law that requires them in dangerous conditions - kind of like a "chains required" for the pass when it's too snowy. I'd vote for a "lifejacket required" law for the bar and Ocean on boats 60 feet and shorter when there's a small craft advisory. Regardless, I'll be wearing mine more often.
Artwo,
How many people risked their lives trying to rescue the crew of the Taki Too? Who paid for the rescue, the hospital bills, etc. How about the folks that had to haul the bodies away?
Here's a quote from one of the CG guys. He was upset that he didn't save anyone.
Interesting stat that of the 47 fatal recreational boat accidents over the last 3 years, 35 were not wearing life jackets.
Look in the bright side, making it mandatory to wear life jackets would free up a lot of storage space on my boat.
Brion
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">But that's not how it works out. If we only affected ourselves that would be fine that's not real world.
How many people risked their lives trying to rescue the crew of the Taki Too? Who paid for the rescue, the hospital bills, etc. How about the folks that had to haul the bodies away?
Here's a quote from one of the CG guys. He was upset that he didn't save anyone.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Any time the consequence of our action affects others, then everybody affected gets a say in what actions we take.
Interesting stat that of the 47 fatal recreational boat accidents over the last 3 years, 35 were not wearing life jackets.
Look in the bright side, making it mandatory to wear life jackets would free up a lot of storage space on my boat.
Brion
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8,838 Posts
OK, here is my view, for what it is worth...
I DO believe there should be a law. Perhaps as KillerTraylor suggests, based on boat size and/or conditions they should be worn at bar crossings at a minimum.
I think a lot of people are missing the point. There really doesn't have to be a lot of enforcement. Just make the law. If the law required it, most people, and all charters, would do it. Those that don't may pay the consequences, but enforcment is not the point.
The points about the peer pressure and ignorance are too true. People will not naturally gravitate toward donning the PFD if no one else is. Call it herd mentality, embarassment or machoism. Most of us on this board have had or seen up close in person the consequences of not wearing PFDs in small craft. I know I have crossed that bar many times without one on. Not anymore. Not anyone in my boat either. But that is me.
The comfort thing is a bunch of BS. Try on an SOSpender and tell me that.
Put a bunch of people in a charter or a bunch of macho guys and suddenly no one thinks it is necessary. If it is required then the charters will just make it happen.
Sneakers are not an if on Tillamook bar. They are a when.
I DO believe there should be a law. Perhaps as KillerTraylor suggests, based on boat size and/or conditions they should be worn at bar crossings at a minimum.
I think a lot of people are missing the point. There really doesn't have to be a lot of enforcement. Just make the law. If the law required it, most people, and all charters, would do it. Those that don't may pay the consequences, but enforcment is not the point.
The points about the peer pressure and ignorance are too true. People will not naturally gravitate toward donning the PFD if no one else is. Call it herd mentality, embarassment or machoism. Most of us on this board have had or seen up close in person the consequences of not wearing PFDs in small craft. I know I have crossed that bar many times without one on. Not anymore. Not anyone in my boat either. But that is me.
The comfort thing is a bunch of BS. Try on an SOSpender and tell me that.
Put a bunch of people in a charter or a bunch of macho guys and suddenly no one thinks it is necessary. If it is required then the charters will just make it happen.
Sneakers are not an if on Tillamook bar. They are a when.
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76 Posts
Those waves weren't an accident or an act of god, it was and is, Nature. You, the Captain/pilot/operator/rower/paddler, or otherwise in control of your vessel, and having--you would think--a responsibility for yourself and passengers, Should, of ALL People, Know When To Put On The Life Vests......And If You Are Paid to operate/pilot/captain a vessel, You ARE, Responsible For The Use of Life Vests, when the conditions dictate. You Are The Expert.
Those with 20, 30, 40 years experience, By Example, could save hundreds of lives yearly, just by using there vests when crossing the Bar, Operating in Nasty Weather, and running the white water.
I can here the story now--You bet, I went across the bar three time now, I"m Ready, My Guide said we don't need to wear life vests, I been doing this for--you fill in the years--ever, never had one problem, it looks worst than it really is!--you get the message. Learning his new lessons He Buys a boat, and goes.
Explaining, (fish Story) the importance, to friends, family, clients, ect. will save lives more than anything else.
Common Sense, isn't Common Anymore. Leadership and guideance (sp), from you, is something your passengers, and Clients, need and paid for. imho
Those with 20, 30, 40 years experience, By Example, could save hundreds of lives yearly, just by using there vests when crossing the Bar, Operating in Nasty Weather, and running the white water.
I can here the story now--You bet, I went across the bar three time now, I"m Ready, My Guide said we don't need to wear life vests, I been doing this for--you fill in the years--ever, never had one problem, it looks worst than it really is!--you get the message. Learning his new lessons He Buys a boat, and goes.
Explaining, (fish Story) the importance, to friends, family, clients, ect. will save lives more than anything else.
Common Sense, isn't Common Anymore. Leadership and guideance (sp), from you, is something your passengers, and Clients, need and paid for. imho
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170 Posts
Whether we end up with a new law mandating wearing of PFDs or not, I suspect that more and more insurance underwriters are going make such a requirement part of a condition of writing you a policy.
I only hope that anyone writing such legal or insurance mandates comprehends that the tradeoffs between requiring a Type III vs a Type V PFDs. I love my type V (inflatable Sterns vest)PFD, and would be quite bummed if the USCG or my insurance company mandated a really bulky model. Sure, the bulkier ones are more effective, but so are 5-point seat belts in cars... Do what you can to make your interests (for/against mandates, types of PFDs, etc.) known to your elected officials. Otherwise, expect that mandates, if any, will miss the mark.
[ 06-17-2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Mack Slayer ]
I only hope that anyone writing such legal or insurance mandates comprehends that the tradeoffs between requiring a Type III vs a Type V PFDs. I love my type V (inflatable Sterns vest)PFD, and would be quite bummed if the USCG or my insurance company mandated a really bulky model. Sure, the bulkier ones are more effective, but so are 5-point seat belts in cars... Do what you can to make your interests (for/against mandates, types of PFDs, etc.) known to your elected officials. Otherwise, expect that mandates, if any, will miss the mark.
[ 06-17-2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Mack Slayer ]
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12,322 Posts
I believe that with such a law, enforcement would be greatly simplified. Presently a boat must be hailed or inspected to determine if a sufficient number of PFDs are on-hand. Under the law that I recommend (mandatory wearing of PFDs at all times)the authorities would instantly know if they are on-hand --- you would be wearing them. Simple.
Again, the analogy of automobile seat belts seems to be a good one. If you support seat belt laws, why would you not support a mandatory PFD law? I am curious to hear answers to that.
Again, the analogy of automobile seat belts seems to be a good one. If you support seat belt laws, why would you not support a mandatory PFD law? I am curious to hear answers to that.
According to the Lars Larson program, Federal law requires the use of PFD's in dangerous conditions, specifically dangerous bar crossings.
it also specified that the crew must personally assist passengers with donning the PFD.
He quoted chapter and verse from the CFR. I am trying to get the exact CFR number. I will post it as soon as I get it.
**Disclaimer** sometimes code law has little meaning without the case law to interpret it's application. I have absolutley no idea what case law holds in this matter.
Just thought you all might want to know about this.
it also specified that the crew must personally assist passengers with donning the PFD.
He quoted chapter and verse from the CFR. I am trying to get the exact CFR number. I will post it as soon as I get it.
**Disclaimer** sometimes code law has little meaning without the case law to interpret it's application. I have absolutley no idea what case law holds in this matter.
Just thought you all might want to know about this.
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1,030 Posts
Well, reading some replies and thinking more about it, I guess I could go either way. I don't really care if they make me wear a PFD I do most of the time anyway. I'm just afraid how far the law will go, and I don't really feel like I need Uncle Sam to tell me when I need to wear a life jacket. I'm smart enough to figure that one out on my own. If I'm drifting down the siletz tidewater in my driftboat after salmon on a warm September afternoon I don't feel like I should be required to wear a PFD. If I'm out in the Columbia sturgeon fishing at Rooster Rock and the wind picks up and starts throwing whitecaps I feel like I'm intelligent enough to my my PFD on.
The ocean is a different story because it can take any one of us at any time if the weather changes quick enough....I might go with a law on making you wear PFD's while underway, or in the ocean...It would depend on how the law is worded.
The ocean is a different story because it can take any one of us at any time if the weather changes quick enough....I might go with a law on making you wear PFD's while underway, or in the ocean...It would depend on how the law is worded.
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1,433 Posts
I think one of the choices in the poll should have been: "Keep the existing PFD laws in place with no changes".
How many thousands of boating trips occur in Oregon each year? MANY thousands. Every once in a while something bad happens and lives are lost, and sometimes their own decision not to wear a PFD contributes to their demise. Those few unfortunate events and poor choices shouldn't justify a change in laws to require everybody to wear a PFD in my opinion.
How many thousands of boating trips occur in Oregon each year? MANY thousands. Every once in a while something bad happens and lives are lost, and sometimes their own decision not to wear a PFD contributes to their demise. Those few unfortunate events and poor choices shouldn't justify a change in laws to require everybody to wear a PFD in my opinion.
My son just turned 14 last month and advised me that now he didn't have to wear a PFD anymore! Oh Contraire my oh so knowledgeable teenager! "But MOM none of the kids want to wear them!" Peer pressue definately gets the upper hand with the younger crowd...they're not intelligent enough to know what's best and let's face it there are lots of adults out there with teenage mentality.....I had my son read the article on the cover of Sunday's Oregonion and it hit home...I think the law should be modified, in particular for the commercial vessels.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">That's because those people chose to not wear a PFD.
From previous posts of yours that I have read Thumper, I would expect you to support a law like this. The liberal frame of mind that we need the Govt. to take care of us is getting really stale.
I don't need any more Govt. in my business or my life telling me what I can and can't do and when I can and can't do it. I am a grown man and can make my own decisions. This law would just be another infringement on my freedom to make a choice.
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WheresMyBobber has it right! The existing laws are good enough. I was listening to Lars Larson (see Snag's comments above) and Federal Regulations already require PFD's be worn on all vesels in dangerous conditions, (i.e. Bar Crossings). This should cover it!!
I would condone a Law change that would require minors to 16 (or 18) years old be required to wear them, but an adult should be able to do as he feels is best!! No more Laws to protect Me from Myself, PLEASE!!!!
I would condone a Law change that would require minors to 16 (or 18) years old be required to wear them, but an adult should be able to do as he feels is best!! No more Laws to protect Me from Myself, PLEASE!!!!
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1,392 Posts
I was glad to see in the poll that most people didn't want a life jacket law. Like it has been said before we don't need laws to protect us from ourselves. For the most part to "save lives" is rally a poor excuse to pass a law. IE: helmet law and seat belt law. If saving laws was really important there would be a cigarette law, alcohol law,and a junk food law which would save a lot more lives than the above two or a life jacket law. The same with I shouldn't have to pay for someone stupidity. That is what freedom is all about. I pay for your freedom and you pay for mine. Maybe I am wrong and we should outlaw everything that will cost taxpayers money, raise insurance rates, or save lives. We won't need a life jacket or a helmet law fishing and riding will be against the law.
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For the record.
I am not a proponent for an all inclusive life jacket law, however, if that is how it needed to be implemented I would still say yes.
Ideally this is what I would like to see enforced:
All passengers and crew of:
--Class 2 Private Boats or smaller (40ft.)
--Class 3 Charter/Guide Boats or smaller (65ft)
will be required to wear life jackets, to include Type I, II, III, V PFD's, while entering or exiting the ocean. The "ocean" boundary is to be defined as an invisible line drawn between the jetty tips.(or perhaps the Coast Guard could place some "Dead Line" signs at the end of the jetties?)
I have been in the water before due to a stupid "accident". It was my fault, however I am glad Mother Nature let me survive and learn from that lesson. I know how impossible it is to survive in the ocean without a PFD. You can't breathe, you hyperventilate, your clothes fill up with water and your body gets heavier and heavier, your muscles spasm from the cold and start to give up, and your mind can't concentrate on anything accept, "I'm gonna die". All this happens in minutes, not hours.
I could've died, but I don't think I "deserved" to die, especially because the "gene pool needed thinning".(some of you would probably disagree :grin: ) I had never been in the salt water without a wetsuit until then so I had no realization of how fast your body gives up. I consider myself a better than average swimmer but I was no match for that cold water and no PFD. This happened in Yaquina "BAY", it wasn't even in the ocean where I'd be getting pounded repeatedly by 12ft. waves to boot!
Let's keep this discussion going......and civil. :cheers:
I am not a proponent for an all inclusive life jacket law, however, if that is how it needed to be implemented I would still say yes.
Ideally this is what I would like to see enforced:
All passengers and crew of:
--Class 2 Private Boats or smaller (40ft.)
--Class 3 Charter/Guide Boats or smaller (65ft)
will be required to wear life jackets, to include Type I, II, III, V PFD's, while entering or exiting the ocean. The "ocean" boundary is to be defined as an invisible line drawn between the jetty tips.(or perhaps the Coast Guard could place some "Dead Line" signs at the end of the jetties?)
I have been in the water before due to a stupid "accident". It was my fault, however I am glad Mother Nature let me survive and learn from that lesson. I know how impossible it is to survive in the ocean without a PFD. You can't breathe, you hyperventilate, your clothes fill up with water and your body gets heavier and heavier, your muscles spasm from the cold and start to give up, and your mind can't concentrate on anything accept, "I'm gonna die". All this happens in minutes, not hours.
I could've died, but I don't think I "deserved" to die, especially because the "gene pool needed thinning".(some of you would probably disagree :grin: ) I had never been in the salt water without a wetsuit until then so I had no realization of how fast your body gives up. I consider myself a better than average swimmer but I was no match for that cold water and no PFD. This happened in Yaquina "BAY", it wasn't even in the ocean where I'd be getting pounded repeatedly by 12ft. waves to boot!
Let's keep this discussion going......and civil. :cheers:
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