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Here is an interesting article from the Meford Mail Tribune concerning inbred fish..... Co-nook??
 

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I caught one two weeks ago. About 15lbs, black spots, greener body, grey/speckled gumline, forked tail. Rudder. Now I know what it was. Nature responding to our fiddling. It went back into the drink.
 

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Wow, I've had several Coho this year I had to look twice at because I thought they were Chinook. Their gum line was kind of a grayish color but their markings were more like Chinook. I threw them all back. I had to pull out my fish ID'er to review the difference and I've been fishing for them for 30 years. Maybe because the Coho are so big this year its hard to tell the difference initially.
 

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Those conclusions, however, are at the root of a series of coastal rumors over the co-nucks’ creation. Some believe the fish are used as a way to write more fishing tickets. Others have even speculated that the ODFW actively breeds co- nucks to keep ocean anglers from keeping them, thereby boosting carcass sales at places like Cole Rivers Hatchery.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">"Coastal rumors"? No way, not aroud here! :grin:

Kind of interesting though as some of us locals were just talking about that last week. One of the fish fileter's was talking about a peculliar salmon he fileted that included grey gum lines. I told him I would inquire with one of our local bio's and see if this could happen in the hatchery or the wild and that it would make an interesting thread on ifish.

I would like to see them breed some coho with lingcod so we could have some year round cohocod fishing. :grin:

Dano
 

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If coho and chinook are truly different species then they should be unable to cross by conventional means, or produce sterile off spring (i.e. mule). If someone catches one of these conooks they should see if they have eggs or milt.

I would also think that this cross has probably been tried before and there could be some literature to be found on the subject.

One item pointed out in the article was the presence of "coho" genes in chinook. I think you have to be careful when describing species-specific genes. It is also likely that the "coho" gene is normally present in a very low frequency in chinook and a large enough sample size was not used in earlier studies tracking the gene. In other words, they may have just found for the first time a gene common in coho and not in chinook.

Sounds fishy to me.
 

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Welter is one of six Brookings anglers holding special state and federal permits this fall to kill up to 10 wild coho salmon suspected to be co-nucks in hopes of settling this hybrid issue after years of ill will.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">HMMMMM>>>
 

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Hmmm,

Some hybrids have been thought impossible, but proved otherwise. ie. American Bison/Bovine. Most of the offspring were sterile, but eventually, uneaven chromosomes (14+16 I think)lined up and the offsping are quite fertile "Beefalo" that my family had 250 registered head of.

I also have mounted at home a "Sprallard". A cross bred, wild Pintail/Mallard with characteristics of both.

Not being a fisheries expert, I would say it is possible, but as the article states, most likely the late season large buck Coho get black gums with just a pencil wide white strip where the teeth attach.

I saw a guy while fishing a coastal river last fall in November and showed me his 19lb "Chinook" in the box. He says look, black gums...except for right where the teeth attach, no spots on bottom of the forked tail etc.. I told him it was most definitely a buck Coho. He goes to leave, and while tying down his boat a fish cop stops, looks at his tag, his fish, says "nice fish" and drove off :whazzup:
 

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If coho and chinook are truly different species then they should be unable to cross by conventional means, or produce sterile off spring
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">The first part is not correct, the second part is. If they are different species it means their offspring cannot successfully reproduce. Apparently it's the offspring that are being caught.
 

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One note, just because they have milt or eggs in them does not mean they aren't a hybrid. All fish that are mature would have milt or eggs, they just wouldn't be viable.
 

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Dan, the first point is not incorrect. A species is closely related organisms capable of interbreeding. Inability of interbreeding may occur because of sterile offspring or by incompatibility of the sperm and egg. My point was just because you dump coho milt in with chinook eggs does not mean you will get off spring. The Iron Gate hatchery incident claims this occurred, but I am skeptical. If it were that easy then it seems hybridization would be more common. I wonder if there is some natural variation in chinook that was unnoticed until fishing was closed to coho. Before that who would have been so concerned with the minor differences.

Good call Mojo. I was thinking more along the lines of triploid fish. However, I caught some kokanee in Paulina this year that were changing into spawning condition but had no reproductive organs when they should have.
 

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Closely related species can and do interbreed, often producing fertile offspring. Rainbow and cutthroat trout, for instance...and if in a closed system (like some eastern Oregon desert streams) a hybrid swarm sometimes develops...a mixed race of progeny dominated by one of the two parent species, perhaps, but with characteristics of both.

Inter-specific breeding doesn't occur very often in nature due to spatial and temporal separation of spawners...coho spawn later in the upper tribs, while chinook spawn earlier down in the mainstem. Over 50 years of stocking hatchery rainbows in the Malheur and Chewaucan rivers failed to produce any detectable genetic effect on the native redband trout genetic makeup...the hatchery fish died before they could spawn, they spawned at the wrong time to hybridize, or their progeny died...whatever, the native fish survived intact without evidence of hatchery genetic introgression.

When produced, hybrids usually don't fare as well as pure breds when trying to breed in the wild, or in survival in general, and their mixed genes tend to drop out of the genepool when normal conditions prevail.
 

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Wouldn't be the first time Mark had fun with a weird story...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by Bill Monroe:
Wouldn't be the first time Mark had fun with a weird story...
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Nor the last.......! :grin:
 

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i can't remember which web site it was on but people were saying that they had caught a king without eggs or milt in them.
 

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I believe these fish exists. We had in the ocean this year, with black gum lines, and the scales weren't coming off in the net. All of the other characteristics were a coho, so back it went.
 

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Here is an interesting site.

Hybridization does occur in some salmon. However, it only readily happens with a chinook X pink cross. Crosses with other combinations did not survive well as they are not as genetically compatible. The chinook X pink cross pruduced sterile off spring that produced neither egg nor milt.

Based on this information, a co-nook should not have eggs or milt. I wonder then, if they don't have eggs or milt will they even head up river to spawn?

[ 09-05-2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: FallRiverGuy ]
 

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Check this out: Monosex chinook salmon cultures. To get away from the problem of precocious males (jacks) in salmon culture they are making an all female population by generating salmon that are phenotypically male but genotypically female.

I think I'll keep to eating fish I catch myself.

[ 09-05-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: FallRiverGuy ]
 
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