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Before I vote (like it makes a difference), I need to know the consequences.

Salmon are important, but so are people and there life styles.

Dan

PS> Heck, as I have said in the past, I usually catch enough salmon but am concerned about wild fish.

Dan
 

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Got me again, I suppose! If someone has a link to a web dictionary, feel free to send it to me. Their and there often times screw me up! I suppose I could do a Google search.
 

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Any truth to the following statement? I heard it 4,5 years ago.
Breaching is no longer moot because before the trapped silt clears from the river beds (ten, fifteen years) , the runs will be extinct.
 

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I see it from both sides as in my industry we rely on the barges and so do a lot of people. If you put this vote to the entire poplulation you would probably see a different result. I think taking out the dams should be a last resort. Like Buku said we dont really know what the effects and side effects could be.
 

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BuKu: And if we do nothing they will for sure be extinct. The silt will not be much of an issue as the problems primarily are: Passage (silt has nothing to do with it), delays in up and down migration (again, silt has nothing to do with it), predation (again,.....), etc. Most fish don't spawn in mainstream rivers (Most, not all) so silt loads will not impact spawning. What it will impact is suspended sediment may mess with homing (slight probability), but the biggest problem/danger is pollution stirred up into the water column. This would be a problem for awhile. It may or may not be permanent. But not taking out the dams does nothing for the pollution in the silt either.

Fishing is life: I understand (and it may not be completely correct) that the cost of barging is artificially low because of federal subsidies and that if the subsidies were removed the cost of rail transport would be cheaper. While it would indeed impact the livelihood of those involved in barging, it is not a matter of cost of transport or transport time.

Just more food for thought.

[ 05-15-2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: STGRule ]
 

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BukuBass,
I doubt that there is enough real data to say for sure just how long it would take the river to clear, but, in my opinion, I think it would be worth a shot. My biggest concern is that removing the dams may not be enough without pulling the gillnets out of the rivers, too.

D.
 

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This is a brilliant bunch of guys saying the same thing I was saying in another post. Where were you guys at when I was battling the radicals over there.
 

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You think they dredge the Columbia alot now, just wait until they breach those damns!!
Silt is gonna be filling up that river for a looonnnngggg time after that!!!
 

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Little known fact: Chinook salmon were once commercially harvested in Nevada! Yup, its true. Chinook used to run up the Snake River, to the Owyhee, and up the Owyhee's South Fork across the state line and well into Nevada. According to old copies of the local weekly newspaper, the saloon at Tuscarora (now a near-ghost town) sold fresh salmon dinners (from the nearby South Fork headwaters) as late as the 1890s. Then the high Owyhee Dam went in about 1910...no ladders...and Idaho Power Co put in the Hells Canyon dams...while the Corps of Engineers finished the job with the 4 lower Snake dams. If the anti-dammers get rid of the 4 lower dams, can the rest of them be far behind? How much would a Nevada salmon be worth?
 

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Dams won't go away until a suitable replacement is found. A suitable replacment will not be found until the benefits provided by the dams become so expensive that it is economically beneficial to remove them. An example is the Sandy river dams. They are becoming too expensive to maintain, so they are being removed. The environmental benefits of their removal are a byproduct of economics. Make the dams expensive to keep and they will go away.

Just my opinion,
D.
 

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just wait until they breach those damns!!
Silt is gonna be filling up that river for a looonnnngggg time after that!!!
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Kinda makes you wonder how the Columbia River salmon made it for tens of thousands of years with no dams to remove all that silt...
 

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STG, i checked with the barge companies to see if they really did get some kind of subsidies and he said there are none. They actually have to pay a surcharge to maintain the dams. The present rail freight to move bulk containers/commodities from Lewiston, ID is 45% higher than the barges. And if you know rail companies, if they tore out the dams and they were the only ones left, they would surely raise rail rates (monopoly). I respect your comments, i just want to make sure that we all realize the impacts.
 

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With conservation, we wouldn't need to replace the electricity produced by those dams. The Northwest is a product of cheap power. Our homes are built entirely sub-standard to the rest of the county conservation-wise because it is/was cheaper than the electricity cost. "Good-sense" homes are required everywhere but here. We had the luxury of little insulation, non-insulated windows, and power-wasting appliances for a long, long time. All we have to do is catch up with the rest of the country and we wouldn't need to "replace" any electricity.
 

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I think I am going with SURECATCH on this one. I remember reading many times that those dams produce very little power compared to the rest of the Columbia river dams. I remember reading in an earlier post that they produce less than 5% of the NW overall power?... They don't make sense unless you are a barge owner or are someone who uses them.
Besides, there are many other alternatives that could be implemented to take care of any power loss that may arrise with the removal of those four fish killing dams...

FishaholicAZ
 

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surecatch,

Even political power has a monetary cost and benefit :shocked: . Eventually, even that kind of power will cost too much to maintain for the dams. I think of dams like auto emissions. We all know that the emissions are bad for the environment in the long run, but we (collectively) are not willing to give them up with out a suitable replacement (cheaper, convenient, etc..). When those replacements become available, we will start to get rid of our fossil fuel powered cars. The same with dams (in general, not just the ones on the Snake river). If the "Green Power" offered by PGE was the same price as the power we already use, who wouldn't switch? I don't know if the Snake River salmon will outlast the dams. I hope they do, but I think they have at least ten more years of waiting before the dams start to come down. The best way to speed up the process is to join groups that have the ability to put pressure on the political system (like NW Steelheaders). Also, write letters to your government officials. Don't underestimate the power of the letter. If elected officials gets enough of them, they will listen. Their careers depend on it.
Oh, and as far as gill nets in rivers, they are like throwing a box full of nails onto the freeway and wondering why traffic stopped. Gill nets in rivers don't make sense. I'd sure like to see the fishery move towards commercial trolling instead of nets. It works in the ocean. It works for the sport fishery. It should work for commercial/tribal river fisherman and it's a lot easier to manage the selective fishery.

D.
 

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I remember reading in an earlier post that they produce less than 5% of the NW overall power?..
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">That 5% kept us out of major blackouts during the "power crisis" that Enron perpetrated. In case anyone hasn't noticed, the demand for electricity is skyrocketing along with the population. Everyone's got fancy electronic gadgets nowadays, and it's going to continue to get worse.

The LAST thing we need to do is get rid of power-production!!

TR
 
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