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Hatchery and Wild in my mind is an organization that is there to raise the point and show the importance of hatchery salmon and steelhead in our systems, where we are right now in time, with the myriad of hardships that plague the native (spawned from the gravel) populations. With groups like the native fish society suing ODFW over hatchery production and huge companies like Patagonia making a film that points a finger at hatchery fish as one of the biggest factors contributing to the decline of wild from the gravel anadromous fish, hatchery and wild coexist stands as a voice of reason. They are not a pro hatchery group that is advocating to pump a bunch of domesticated out of basin stock into every river. Their message is to look at the tillamook native broodstock programs, a thriving native population AND a robust harvest component coming from once removed in basin genetics, plus creating a buffer for predation. Thatā€™s a perfect example of hatchery AND wild coexisting. Hatchery fish done the right way in coexistence with native fish is the message. Broodstock programs have been used as a tool to give native populations a jumpstart that were on the brink of extinction. If you were to pull all hatchery plants right now, you wouldnā€™t have any consumptive fisheries, and native stocks would decline. Hatchery fish are creating a buffer for predation, and its been shown in numerous basins such as the Clackamas that removing hatchery fish from the system 20 years later didnā€™t help native populations thrive. The idea and message of the group is pretty cut and dry if you read the name of it. Hatchery fish done the right way can coexist and can and should be used as a tool and a buffer to help wild fish populations while all of the other limiting factors are addressed. Are they going to be the ones to address those factors? Only time will tell, for now they are fighting other groups who have their fingers pointed at an easy target and in the wrong direction before itā€™s too late and we end up with no hatchery fish, no fisheries, loose the interest of the people who are hands on involved the most all while native runs decline.
They should have hired you to do the video.
 
Your list makes our point for us. Why do groups like NFS spend most of their time on anti-hatchery lawsuits instead of focusing on getting logging and water quality laws enforced? There must be a ā€œhidden agendaā€ behind these lawsuits (and the Patagonia movie) since they point blame at hatcheries instead of the bigger problems facing salmon recovery. Just think what could be accomplished if Patagoniaā€™s money and the NFS legal team were working toward real recovery....


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Do your homework

Lawsuit against army corps dams

Lawsuit against Dept. of Forestry

Lawsuit against NMFS over Oregon Coast Spring run chinook classification

The lawsuits are minor compared to what the volunteers across multiple states do. Everything from side channel restoration, annual spawning surveys, water temperature monitoring, macro invertebrate surveys, monitoring logging activity, preventing mineral extraction companies from moving into important headwaters, dealing with pollution, and more.

Show me a hatchery group that advocates for addressing the real problems of fish recovery and I will throw gobs of money at them.
 
Tyler Wilson and Beefcake summed it up nicely.

Again, Hatchery and Wild is trying to seek ways to "coexist". Find a balance while working to restore wild stocks.

I believe that is key to any recovery.

If you eliminate hatchery fish, soon fishermen are gone and you lose your best base of stakeholders/advocates. The general public will happily buy farmed salmon from New Zealand to eat, and throw a party every year when the 100th "wild" salmon crosses Bonneville in September.
 
The anti hatchery team are precise using measured statements taken from notes...legal notes I feel.
The hatchery team, is short precise about what affects their local region but lack a legal politicians polish.

One team appears backed by Wallstreet with ivy league puff!

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Your list makes our point for us. Why do groups like NFS spend most of their time on anti-hatchery lawsuits instead of focusing on getting logging and water quality laws enforced? There must be a ā€œhidden agendaā€ behind these lawsuits (and the Patagonia movie) since they point blame at hatcheries instead of the bigger problems facing salmon recovery. Just think what could be accomplished if Patagoniaā€™s money and the NFS legal team were working toward real recovery....


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Absolutely make hatcheries great again on damed up rivers. The data is in, the whales were and or are starving from humongous hatchery rearing reductions. Its like the blind leading the blind and deaf for pete sakes.
 
Tyler Wilson and Beefcake summed it up nicely.

Again, Hatchery and Wild is trying to seek ways to "coexist". Find a balance while working to restore wild stocks.

I believe that is key to any recovery.

If you eliminate hatchery fish, soon fishermen are gone and you lose your best base of stakeholders/advocates. The general public will happily buy farmed salmon from New Zealand to eat, and throw a party every year when the 100th "wild" salmon crosses Bonneville in September.
BGF....I'll ask one more time. How do they plan on working to restore wild stocks?
I can't plant fish in my toilet every year and expect to create a self sustaining wild run.
You keep dodging my question and for good reason, there is no plan, other than to let the wild fish groups and environmental groups do the heavy lifting while the hatchery and wild base sits back and makes fun of them.
Ignorance in the way for Pete's sake.
MHGA
HP out.
 
BGF....I'll ask one more time. How do they plan on working to restore wild stocks?
I can't plant fish in my toilet every year and expect to create a self sustaining wild run.
You keep dodging my question and for good reason, there is no plan, other than to let the wild fish groups and environmental groups do the heavy lifting while the hatchery and wild base sits back and makes fun of them.
Ignorance in the way for Pete's sake.
MHGA
HP out.
there is no question that groups like the native fish society and trout unlimited are doing an amazing job at fighting for native fish habitat, doing stream restoration, etc. and both are well established organizations that have the money to do so, just take a look at their List of donors. If your pro hatchery enough to not see that you got your eyes glued shut. On the contrary side of that, if you are a wild fish advocate, and you donā€™t understand that where we are at with hatchery supplementation is currently still a necessity after 120 years of doing it your just as nuts. It never was, nor ever will be the a FIX to the problems we have created. There is not an example of one situation where you cut hatchery plants of salmon or steelhead and it benefitted a native run. There are examples of where native broodstock programs have been used to help rejuvenated a run from extinction. If you look at the science itā€™s pretty clear to me that when hatchery supplementation is DONE RIGHT, you take once removed in basin genetics, you are aiding the fish by giving them 99% fertilization rate and then taking out the predation aspect until they are smolts. If those once removed fish return to the gravel to spawn, it would show to me that their fitness would be suitable to reproduce in the gravel and help repopulate the stocks.

itā€™s not black or white one way or the other. The pro hatchery people need to be able to see what good groups like the NFS snd TU are doing for habitat restoration. Anti hatchery people need to be able to see that hatchery supplementation isnā€™t where we want to be, but where we need to be until we further help to restore spawning habitat, restore riparian zones and get shade back on the river banks, cut SE Alaskan troll fleet catch. Etc.

We need to work together to do a better job with our hatchery fish while we work on habitat. For now itā€™s hatchery and wild coexisting is the goal. I guess the message would be pro hatchery and anti hatchery coexist...
 
Wild fish advocates have nothing that can change the 1,000 or so dams we have here and the money should be spent hiring professionals to cull the predatory birds living and feeding on the wild fry on wild rivers. Wild fish for the most part are on damed up rivers screwed blued and tattooed, just the way of the beast, sorry can't help defective thinking, I try but obviously I'm being ignored. Maybe have another management meeting and give hugs out all around maybe that would help, at least you gotta hug!
Dam in the way! RJ out.
 
Wild fish advocates have nothing that can change the 1,000 or so dams we have here and the money should be spent hiring professionals to cull the predatory birds living and feeding on the wild fry on wild rivers. Wild fish for the most part are on damed up rivers screwed blued and tattooed, just the way of the beast, sorry can't help defective thinking, I try but obviously I'm being ignored. Maybe have another management meeting and give hugs out all around maybe that would help, at least you gotta hug!
Dam in the way! RJ out.
WRONG
It's foolish to think we can take every dam down, but just as foolish to not evaluate which ones don't make sense anymore. Hatchery runs on heavily dammed rivers should still be run with the best available science.

LOTS of environmental groups and wild fish groups have been, and will be, instrumental in dam removal and fish passage restoration.
Can't plant toilets and hot tubs!
20th century still in the way!
HP out
 
Hydro, I don't know exactly what hatchery and wild as a group is currently taking on as far as habitat projects. But you seem to paint with a pretty broad brush the idea that anyone pro hatchery is anti wild, or not doing anything/enough in your mind to help wild fish. That's wrong.

Some of the names involved with Hatchery and Wild have been involved in habitat stuff in local watersheds for years. I guess they shoulda been more vocal about trying to take credit for all their contributions over the years.

I want wild fish to thrive. I understand hatchery fish need to play a role for the foreseeable future. If we disagree fine.
 
Dams keep the lights on and control flooding to some extent and provide irrigation in some regions for food production and household water usage in some areas. I am for wild fish on wild rivers, said it before but chasing with millions of dollars restoration of wild fish is ineffective use of money IMO on damed up rivers. So are going to go back to oil lite lamps, starvation and famine for lack of water just to see a couple hatchery fish spawning somewhere in a damed up river? Makes no sense at all, its poppy cock, a fairy tale, data in on damed up rivers proves it.
Instead of starving whales we will be starving our children, great call, I don't think so.
When I say dam in the way that is the cause of wild fish degradation hatchery fish were and are only a minor player here and are being used as Hogan's Goat. Hatchery plants should only have been reduced after wild fish started to respond, that's just plain old common sense, don't ya think? Been a decade plus, so why aren't the wild runs recovery to any descent fishery level? I'll tell you why, "dam in the way."
 
So what are they doing to help recover wild stocks?
Loudly demanding more hatchery fish doesn't count.
 
So what are they doing to help recover wild stocks?
Loudly demanding more hatchery fish doesn't count.
Geezus holy $@&;%=!

From the link I provided (whichyoualwaysseemtodemandbutneverprovideyourselfandthenobviouslydontreadwhatisprovided)

"Projects include acquisition of property for public access, hatchery improvements, habitat restoration, boat facility improvements, support for broodstock programs and scientific research."

According to the link, they've been doing that stuff for decades. Look at the names involved. Educate yourself. Many good people and Wild fish advocates there.

I don't give a rat's backside if you don't believe it, I know it.
 
So mostly hatchery stuff then.
 
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Geezus holy $@&;%=!

From the link I provided (whichyoualwaysseemtodemandbutneverprovideyourselfandthenobviouslydontreadwhatisprovided)

"Projects include acquisition of property for public access, hatchery improvements, habitat restoration, boat facility improvements, support for broodstock programs and scientific research."

According to the link, they've been doing that stuff for decades. Look at the names involved. Educate yourself. Many good people and Wild fish advocates there.

I don't give a rat's backside if you don't believe it, I know it.
Oregon wildlife foundation appears to be the organization behind that event, unless hatchery vs wild set it up in 1981. Either way, glad they are posting about it, seems like a cool thing. Still need to hear which environmental groups they advocate for, or what their positions are on the basic issues facing wild fish recovery. Advocating for wild fish recovery but not having a platform for wild fish recovery, and having members that flame non profits working towards wild fish recovery....it doesn't add up.
 
So mostly hatchery stuff then.
Actually no, thats not how I see that. They list several items there.

1. Acquisition of property for public access.
2. Hatchery improvements.
3. HABITAT RESTORATION
4. Boat facility improvements
5. Support of brood stock programs
6. Scientific research

There are 6 items in that list. 2 of them support hatcheries, 4 don't. Math says they do as much or more to support habitat restoration and scientific research as they do for hatcheries.
 
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