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Dont expect that an ESA listing on AK Chinook stocks will result in closure of mixed stock, species fisheries. ESA listings in SUS hasn't meant that type of management action. Yes, there will be more scrutiny of certain fisheries targeting Chinook and/or the bycatch of same. A change might be for shifting in time, area, gear that reduces the impact on ESA stocks. But wholesale closrure? Probably not IMO. It may be beneficial to SUS stocks but maybe not. The SEAK origin Chinook stocks (springs) are more heavily taken in the winter/spring troll fishery relative to what is taken in summer troll. AK has and could back off on the winter season and just shift the PSC treaty quota to the summer fishery where the SUS stocks are dominant.

The only commercial salmon troll fisheries in Alaska are in Southeast. There are no troll fisheries acting on SW and W Ak stocks (eg Kenai, Yukon, Nushigak). ESA listing of SW and W Alaska stocks would have no relevance to SEAK fishery management. The SEAK and Transboundary Chinook stocks are taken in the SEAK salmon fisheries. The SEAK stocks are small in abundance with almost no terminal fisheries acting on them. The take of these stocks are in the mixed stock fisheries.

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Alaska has been releasing a gazillion pinks for a long time. If releasing pinks were the source of the problem for AK Chinook, it seems like the effects would have shown up sooner.


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I don’t have any idea if the pink numbers are impacting chinook numbers. Sorry if I suggested that. I am sure there is no free lunches, so stocking that many pinks comes at the cost of something else. As the ocean changes, what was once no problem can easily become one.

i think the ESA listing will most likely benefit AK chinook. And maybe set the stage for someone like WFC to take a swing at the mixed stock fisheries.

But my crystal ball has never worked for sure.
 
I don’t have any idea if the pink numbers are impacting chinook numbers. Sorry if I suggested that. I am sure there is no free lunches, so stocking that many pinks comes at the cost of something else. As the ocean changes, what was once no problem can easily become one.

i think the ESA listing will most likely benefit AK chinook. And maybe set the stage for someone like WFC to take a swing at the mixed stock fisheries.

But my crystal ball has never worked for sure.
[/QUOTE
Here is a clue:
“The Oregon chub may be a small fish, but it made huge waves as it became the first fish ever removed from the federal list of endangered and threatened animals due to recovery.”
Fact is the Oregon Chub is the only Northwest fish ever eliminated from that list.
So, my question would be since that is the case, and since many fish listed are aggressively harvested in Alaska why would we believe that listing Alaska Chinooks would have any affect on the actual problem.
I have guided in Alaska in various regions including the Kenai and Nushagak and while they manage recreational fisheries when Numbers are low, if Sockeye numbers are good that fishery remains completely wide open.
 
[/QUOTE
Here is a clue:
“The Oregon chub may be a small fish, but it made huge waves as it became the first fish ever removed from the federal list of endangered and threatened animals due to recovery.”
Fact is the Oregon Chub is the only Northwest fish ever eliminated from that list.
So, my question would be since that is the case, and since many fish listed are aggressively harvested in Alaska why would we believe that listing Alaska Chinooks would have any affect on the actual problem.
I have guided in Alaska in various regions including the Kenai and Nushagak and while they manage recreational fisheries when Numbers are low, if Sockeye numbers are good that fishery remains completely wide open.[/QUOTE]
 
There is definitely something going on with pinks and the N. Pacific food web, not so readily inferred from just a pink release time series. See a fairly detailed analysis here

https://www.int-res.com/articles/feature/m719p001.pdf
So you think ESA listing will fix that. What I get from your post is that you don't want to discuss what might fix the problem you would rather bring it back to your preferred talking points.
 
I made the “pink” suggestion. Hell, just switch the releases to chinook.

“but jagosh, pink hatchery and habitat are so different, blah blah blah. If you can get lonesome Larry all the way back to Idaho you can certainly decrease the release of crap fish and increase release of the tasty one.

WFC is an org founded and run by weirdos. If you donate, welcome to the club.
 
Discussion starter · #47 · (Edited)
But it sure keeps ya dirty low-holing B-10 fishers from whacking all my unclipped URBs!

:ROFLMAO:
I don't know if you saw my recent post on the Team eyeFISH B10 stats for 2023.

Turns out only 6% of our total chinook encounters were hatch-URB's... now affectionately known as hURB's, just like the way the Brits say herbs... versus the way Americans say herbs (silent H) as in wild URB's (NOT werbs!)

Said another way, the ruffian rabble like my crew fishing B10 would statistically have to release 16 chinook to be able to keep 1 of your precious hURB's.

Bottom line, since the average B10 angler harvests less than 1 chinook per day when the fishing is decent, your hURB's (and URB's) are priddy'dam safe. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :ROFLMAO:
 
i think the ESA listing will most likely benefit AK chinook. And maybe set the stage for someone like WFC to take a swing at the mixed stock fisheries.
You might check out this action:

The outcome is now on pause while the 9th circuit considers arguments from both sides. A new federal EIS is currently being drafted on the SEAK commercial fishery.
 
Look at the filing and you will find they are asking for financial damages that they will collect. The proceeds are used to fund future actions that undermine a consumption conservation model. Don’t drink the koolaid, non matter how much you like what Reverend Jones is spouting.
Can you point to where in the law an ESA listing petition allows for fee recovery? I’m not aware of anything in the act that allows for compensation prior to a species being listed.
 
Doc -

It doesn’t bother you that the only reason the WFC gives for this requested listing other than climate change is “competition from hatchery-raised fish?” No mention of commercial fishing and bycatch? YGTBFKM.
Exactly! Can we stress bycatch! That word needs to be understood by everyone especially those that don’t fish. What’s going on up there is insane and that’s just what was reported. Imagine what goes on and what people don’t know.
 
Check out page 42 of the petition:

"In many cases, Chinook salmon are caught in mixed-stock fisheries, where multiple salmon species and stocks are harvested together. This can make it challenging to target specific Chinook salmon populations and prevent overharvest of vulnerable stocks. This dynamic can also be exacerbated by the bycatch, or the capture of non-target species in commercial fishing gear. Bycatch of Chinook salmon at different life-cycle stages, such as sub-adult Chinook bycatch from the pollock fishery, is often unaccounted for in total harvest estimates."

I'm also seeing a lot of other threats to the species in the table of contents-- check out the document
 
Exactly! Can we stress bycatch! That word needs to be understood by everyone especially those that don’t fish. What’s going on up there is insane and that’s just what was reported. Imagine what goes on and what people don’t know.
Read the actual petition. Commercial fishing and bycatch are mentioned numerous times, as I pointed out earlier in this thread:

I thought the exact same thing when reading the article. However, in the actual 68 page petition (linked in the article and worth reading), commercial fishing is mentioned numerous times. Here is one such example:

"Overharvest of Alaskan Chinook salmon in commercial fisheries has been a concern in various regions of Alaska at different times. Overharvest occurs when more Chinook salmon are caught than sustainable, leading to declines in populations and potential long-term negative consequences. In many cases, Chinook salmon are caught in mixed-stock fisheries, where multiple salmon species and stocks are harvested together. This can make it challenging to target specific Chinook salmon populations and prevent overharvest of vulnerable stocks. This dynamic can also be exacerbated by the bycatch, or the capture of non-target species in commercial fishing gear. Bycatch of Chinook salmon at different life-cycle stages, such as sub-adult Chinook bycatch from the pollock fishery, is often unaccounted for in total harvest estimates."

I'm with Doc on this one; if ADFG is unwilling to protect their own salmon stocks, as they've clearly demonstrated, then I'm happy to see an organization stepping in to force their hand. They (ADFG) seemed compromised due to their relationships with commercial fisheries.
 
You might check out this action:

The outcome is now on pause while the 9th circuit considers arguments from both sides. A new federal EIS is currently being drafted on the SEAK commercial fishery.
I got pretty excited about this last year, and then the SEAK commercial fishery threw its weight around and low and behold, they were allowed to pillage our fish as usual...
 
Discussion starter · #55 · (Edited)
Doc, you're looking at this wrong. If Alaska doesn't have to list their chinook, maybe we can get CR chinook de-listed!
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
Doc, you're looking at this wrong. If Alaska doesn't have to list their chinook, maybe we can get CR chinook de-listed!
Good luck with that. Although for the record, Mother Columbia ALONE now produces more chinook than all of Alaska's major chinook arteries COMBINED!
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Then again I hear some people like golf, it even has funny clothes and expensive gear that isn’t needed to be successful… sounds like a good option for former fishermen.
That sounds like just about every other hobby/sport out there.
 
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