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This is not significant, other than we, as hunters, have been divided, torn asunder, ripped apart, et al, and the winner is the anti- hunters. Solidarity is about as likely as political bipartisanship. What a failed world in which we live, even in the Great Outdoors.
 

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I switched to bow hunting the year eastside elk went to draw and have not applied for a rifle hunt during that time. Depending on how this all shakes out will make my decision as to what I will be doing for 2022 but if it goes draw eastside I will more than likely cash my points for a rifle hunt along with my hunting partner and maybe one other. We will be sitting with 8 points average after this draw so might as well use them on a rifle hunt. So you rifle hunters who were counting on drawing that hunt will just probably have to wait a year or two more. I'm sure we are not alone in switching from bow to rifle and there are over 7000 bow hunters with 5 or more points. We could really make a mess out of the rifle hunts.
 

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Interesting that this is being blamed on rifle hunters.

Rifle hunters were not the ones complaining to ODFW about archery season crowding.

All types of hunters and organizations have complained to ODFW about low bull:cow ratios.

Oregon manages for the most pathetic bull:cow ratios in the west. We can't even achieve those anymore. Blame it on whatever you want, but hunter harvest of bulls is too high. Rifle hunters have been controlled for 30 years.

Too much interest in a limited resource.

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Interesting that this is being blamed on rifle hunters.

Rifle hunters were not the ones complaining to ODFW about archery season crowding.

All types of hunters and organizations have complained to ODFW about low bull:cow ratios.

Oregon manages for the most pathetic bull:cow ratios in the west. We can't even achieve those anymore. Blame it on whatever you want, but hunter harvest of bulls is too high. Rifle hunters have been controlled for 30 years.

Too much interest in a limited resource.

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Gob through the stats generated in the last 5 years regarding hunter harvest reports.... the units that are being effected aren't even close to being over harvested by archery. If this was truly about animal recruitment and bull to cow ratio they would be applying this state wide. Ever spent time in the Indigo unit... elk numbers are horrible but yet we continue to have general rifle and archery hunts their...bottom line is about $$$. We can bicker and fight among ourselves over this debate...Or we can choose to band together and voice our concerns to try and force a better plan then the current one in the table...

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I switched to bow hunting the year eastside elk went to draw and have not applied for a rifle hunt during that time. Depending on how this all shakes out will make my decision as to what I will be doing for 2022 but if it goes draw eastside I will more than likely cash my points for a rifle hunt along with my hunting partner and maybe one other. We will be sitting with 8 points average after this draw so might as well use them on a rifle hunt. So you rifle hunters who were counting on drawing that hunt will just probably have to wait a year or two more. I'm sure we are not alone in switching from bow to rifle and there are over 7000 bow hunters with 5 or more points. We could really make a mess out of the rifle hunts.
I know several folks that are thinking the same thing. Some have over 10 points.

I don't think they will affect those hunts in the 1, 2 or 3 points range, but those hunts up around 5, 6, 7, and so on will be anyone's guess. Of these hunters most are also making the move to rifle hunting permanently, but are going to start going out of state more.
 

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In the first few minutes of that video, he complains about youth rifle hunts.

He also claims cattle and elk don't get along (Cattle grazing on public pushing elk to private). The ranch I have hunted has both cattle and elk. On same slope. Every day. Living in perfect harmony.
I have access to 640 acres of private timberland in eastern oregon and have years of trail camera data that disagrees with you. I will have elk every day on camera until they stick cattle in there. Then the elk show back up about 2 weeks after they remove the cattle. It literally happens every year.
 

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Gob through the stats generated in the last 5 years regarding hunter harvest reports.... the units that are being effected aren't even close to being over harvested by archery. If this was truly about animal recruitment and bull to cow ratio they would be applying this state wide. Ever spent time in the Indigo unit... elk numbers are horrible but yet we continue to have general rifle and archery hunts their...bottom line is about $$$. We can bicker and fight among ourselves over this debate...Or we can choose to band together and voice our concerns to try and force a better plan then the current one in the table...

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And how did you come to the conclusion this is about money?

An $8 resident app fee doesn't cover a $760 non resident license and Elk tag.
 

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I have access to 640 acres of private timberland in eastern oregon and have years of trail camera data that disagrees with you. I will have elk every day on camera until they stick cattle in there. Then the elk show back up about 2 weeks after they remove the cattle. It literally happens every year.


Maybe the elk on the ranch I hunt (Several thousand acres) have grown used to being near cattle.

Or they would rather hang out with cattle than be chased around on public by archery hunters (Which is why they show up a few days after opening weekend of archery, and there's another big push Labor day weekend)

When we are looking at them thru spotting scopes a couple miles away, we literally have to say "elk" or "cattle". Bedded within a few yards of each other. Thousands of acres to choose from.

I can only share my experience.

Anyone want to tackle the comment in the video about youth hunts in August? Sounds like he wants bowhunters to do whatever they want, and reverse the heat onto other users.
 

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call him up and ask him, Bow Rack in springfield
Some of his proposals are head scratchers, like point banking, but he's always been willing to talk.
 

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So....

A guy who profits from bow tag sales is against a controlled hunt system for bowhunters.

And evidently, he's got a problem with some youth hunts.

I've seen his name posted here in several of these conversations. Now I have a greater understanding of the big picture.

Thanks for the education!
 

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Actually, he's against the proposed system, is in favor of a different controlled system, and has a problem with youth cow hunts starting in Aug and running until Dec 31, as do a bunch of people. Again, call him up, ask him what he'd like to see and why. Then you'll know and won't be guessing.
 

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So....

A guy who profits from bow tag sales is against a controlled hunt system for bowhunters.

And evidently, he's got a problem with some youth hunts.

I've seen his name posted here in several of these conversations. Now I have a greater understanding of the big picture.

Thanks for the education!
I'm with WapitiBob, call him up. He almost always will take time to talk to a fellow hunter. But, profiling someone by what you read in a forum is not only unfair, it is reckless. I don't know anyone that fights as hard for bowhunters rights as Wayne does. If you think he fights because he owns a bow shop, I can guarantee you have never talked to him. He fights for the love and fairness of the sport. Oh yea, I'll bet he would tell you that is also why he owns a bow shop too.

Wayne's ideas about how to fix the issue all of us hunters are in (rifle and archery) are not infallible, but, at least he is out there trying to make a difference for us. This is not a rifle/bow issue. Most sanctions I have seen come from the left wing party that runs this state and their distain for hunters. We should not be bashing rifle hunters, bow hunters or ODFW, we need to voice our opinions in the political sector. Oregon has proven that majority doesn't rule, it is the loudest voice. Right now, democrats have that in spades.
 

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So....

A guy who profits from bow tag sales is against a controlled hunt system for bowhunters.

And evidently, he's got a problem with some youth hunts.

I've seen his name posted here in several of these conversations. Now I have a greater understanding of the big picture.

Thanks for the education!
Well i have only one youth hunt I disagree with. The Interstate youth rut tag. The deer herds here in Lakeview area are VERY VERY BAD and allowing bucks to continue to be shot during the rut , just blows my mind that they would allow this to happen still . there isn’t in my opinion a deer unit in the state of Oregon at least in eastern Oregon that is close to even being 50% of management objective if it’s over 50% that’s because they lowered the management objective number it’s not because there’s a rise in deer numbers that’s for sure. Thats the only way they ever meet a management objective in Oregon is when they lower the amount of animals they want in a unit they never raise the amount of animals to meet that objective
 

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As a general comment, I am always amazed at people being against youth hunts? The reason the hunts start in August is to give kids a chance to get out before everyone else, and give them a chance at animals that are no harassed yet. They go as long as they do because kids have lots of stuff going on and that gives them the chance to get to go depending on other things going on in their lives.

The purpose of the youth hunts is to provide opportunity and success. This helps with hunter recruitment. If kids are given the bottom of the barrel hunts from day 1 they will likely not stick with it.

As for the youth hunt in the Interstate Unit. They don't give out enough tags for it to make a difference. That's like saying all the Auction Tags are bad. There's just not enough of them to cause a problem, or make the problem worse. It definitely isn't helping though. I do understand the point that you are making though basic instinct.

Mule Deer numbers are in the toilet as a whole, but that is the case across the west. There are several factors causing this. Predators, humans encroachment, vehicle strikes, hunting practices, etc. It all affects the population.
 

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Gob through the stats generated in the last 5 years regarding hunter harvest reports.... the units that are being effected aren't even close to being over harvested by archery. If this was truly about animal recruitment and bull to cow ratio they would be applying this state wide. Ever spent time in the Indigo unit... elk numbers are horrible but yet we continue to have general rifle and archery hunts their...bottom line is about $$$. We can bicker and fight among ourselves over this debate...Or we can choose to band together and voice our concerns to try and force a better plan then the current one in the table...

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What money are you talking about? Is there a significant amount of archery hunters who do not apply for controlled deer and elk hunts already.

I don't know squat about the indigo unit, but if it's in the cascades I bet the habitat is crap.

You can't continue to reduce rifle opportunity and take while having unlimited OTC bow hunting. The effort and harvest will be made up by new bow hunters.

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What money are you talking about? Is there a significant amount of archery hunters who do not apply for controlled deer and elk hunts already.

I don't know squat about the indigo unit, but if it's in the cascades I bet the habitat is crap.

You can't continue to reduce rifle opportunity and take while having unlimited OTC bow hunting. The effort and harvest will be made up by new bow hunters.

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Before you bang on a drum about unlimited OTC bow hunting, rifle hunters have access to that too. They have the Western Oregon Deer Tag and several elk tags, all unlimited, all over the counter.

I personally support moving it to a draw, and I am bow hunter, have been for since I was 12, that would be 34 years packing a stick and string in at least 1 state. I support it for different reason, which has mostly to do with management and clearing points.

However one group that no one is considering that this is going to have the biggest affect on are the Westside Rifle Hunters. There are a group of people out there that are called "Have-to-Bow Hunters", these people bow hunt because they didn't draw a rifle tag. So what do they do, they pick their bow up on June 20th and start shooting it, that is if they own one. Otherwise they will make a rush on Sportsmans, Cabelas, Craigslist, etc. This new plan will clear them out of the bow hunting ranks, but it's not going to keep them from hunting, it's going to push them into the OTC Rifle hunts. Western Oregon Deer will be more of war zone than it already is.
 

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Before you bang on a drum about unlimited OTC bow hunting, rifle hunters have access to that too. They have the Western Oregon Deer Tag and several elk tags, all unlimited, all over the counter.

I personally support moving it to a draw, and I am bow hunter, have been for since I was 12, that would be 34 years packing a stick and string in at least 1 state. I support it for different reason, which has mostly to do with management and clearing points.

However one group that no one is considering that this is going to have the biggest affect on are the Westside Rifle Hunters. There are a group of people out there that are called "Have-to-Bow Hunters", these people bow hunt because they didn't draw a rifle tag. So what do they do, they pick their bow up on June 20th and start shooting it, that is if they own one. Otherwise they will make a rush on Sportsmans, Cabelas, Craigslist, etc. This new plan will clear them out of the bow hunting ranks, but it's not going to keep them from hunting, it's going to push them into the OTC Rifle hunts. Western Oregon Deer will be more of war zone than it already is.
In response to your first paragraph, bow hunters will still have that also. 4 weeks of otc elk and 7 weeks.of otc deer. What's your point?

I hunt all over the western states with different weapons. I fully expect once bow hunters are controlled by unit, rifle tags will be cut to meet management objectives for ratios.

I would rather have limited opportunities for everyone than poor herd health. I don't want to go back to the early 80s when post season bull:cow ratios were 1 bull per 100 cows.

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In response to your first paragraph, bow hunters will still have that also. 4 weeks of otc elk and 7 weeks.of otc deer. What's your point?

I hunt all over the western states with different weapons. I fully expect once bow hunters are controlled by unit, rifle tags will be cut to meet management objectives for ratios.

I would rather have limited opportunities for everyone than poor herd health. I don't want to go back to the early 80s when post season bull:cow ratios were 1 bull per 100 cows.

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My point is the unlimited opportunity is still there for rifle hunters. It might not be the opportunity you're looking for, but it's still opportunity. You have repeatedly stated that bow hunters need to give some because rifle hunters have given and had everything taken away from them over and over. The season for rifle is set because of several factors just like archery. The fact remains archery hunters in Oregon just don't kill very many animals, at least that makes much of a difference to the population.

The dates of the archery seasons were set to run in conjunction because most pack both archery elk and deer in their pockets. As for the length I'm not really sure how those dates were set. I've been told anecdotally that it was set off the start of rifle deer, but I don't think that's right.

The fact that you hunt all over the west with many weapons doesn't mean anything to me. I do the same and in the mid-west. That fact doesn't add anything to your argument, nor does it mine.

The fact that does matter is rifle hunters kill more animals. Rifle hunters are more effective at harvesting animals than archery hunters. This effectiveness is the main reason for the limited time the rifle hunters are given.

If archery hunters really have this great thing and are killing so many animals why don't you and the rest of the hunting world come hunt with a bow. The fact is it's not that easy.

As for OTC tags I would take it further than you do. I think every single unit, state wide, should be a draw hunt for both deer and elk, and for rifle and bow. I would eliminate OTC tags all together.

That is not a popular opinion on here with rifle or bow hunters.

I believe it would allow biologists to better manage the populations. At the same time it would clear out the point stores with one other tweak.
 

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My point is the unlimited opportunity is still there for rifle hunters. It might not be the opportunity you're looking for, but it's still opportunity. You have repeatedly stated that bow hunters need to give some because rifle hunters have given and had everything taken away from them over and over. The season for rifle is set because of several factors just like archery. The fact remains archery hunters in Oregon just don't kill very many animals, at least that makes much of a difference to the population.

The dates of the archery seasons were set to run in conjunction because most pack both archery elk and deer in their pockets. As for the length I'm not really sure how those dates were set. I've been told anecdotally that it was set off the start of rifle deer, but I don't think that's right.

The fact that you hunt all over the west with many weapons doesn't mean anything to me. I do the same and in the mid-west. That fact doesn't add anything to your argument, nor does it mine.

The fact that does matter is rifle hunters kill more animals. Rifle hunters are more effective at harvesting animals than archery hunters. This effectiveness is the main reason for the limited time the rifle hunters are given.

If archery hunters really have this great thing and are killing so many animals why don't you and the rest of the hunting world come hunt with a bow. The fact is it's not that easy.

As for OTC tags I would take it further than you do. I think every single unit, state wide, should be a draw hunt for both deer and elk, and for rifle and bow. I would eliminate OTC tags all together.

That is not a popular opinion on here with rifle or bow hunters.

I believe it would allow biologists to better manage the populations. At the same time it would clear out the point stores with one other tweak.
"My point is the unlimited opportunity is still there for rifle hunters. It might not be the opportunity you're looking for, but it's still opportunity. You have repeatedly stated that bow hunters need to give some because rifle hunters have given and had everything taken away from them over and over."

I don't think that's what I've been saying at all. Let alone over and over.

What I have said is you can't limit rifle hunters more to raise bull numbers and expect it to work if there is still unlimited archery hunters.

They are going to limit archery hunters by unit. I expect the next move will be to decrease rifle tags ,or maybe rifle and archery to raise bull numbers.

Archery hunters are killing plenty of animals.

I don't really know what your argument is. You want everything a draw, and you are in favor of what ODFW is doing. But you want to argue with me because I am in favor of making archery elk a draw in units with low bull ratios.

Also, you don't care that I hunt with archery already, but you say I should pick up a bow if I think archery seasons are so good.

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"My point is the unlimited opportunity is still there for rifle hunters. It might not be the opportunity you're looking for, but it's still opportunity. You have repeatedly stated that bow hunters need to give some because rifle hunters have given and had everything taken away from them over and over."

I don't think that's what I've been saying at all. Let alone over and over.

What I have said is you can't limit rifle hunters more to raise bull numbers and expect it to work if there is still unlimited archery hunters.

They are going to limit archery hunters by unit. I expect the next move will be to decrease rifle tags ,or maybe rifle and archery to raise bull numbers.

Archery hunters are killing plenty of animals.

I don't really know what your argument is. You want everything a draw, and you are in favor of what ODFW is doing. But you want to argue with me because I am in favor of making archery elk a draw in units with low bull ratios.

Also, you don't care that I hunt with archery already, but you say I should pick up a bow if I think archery seasons are so good.

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It's not an arguement. I'm just pointing out that rifle hunters have opportunity. But comparing archery and rifle side by side is just not fair comparison. The take rate of archery hunters is well below that of rifle hunters. Likewise the number of bow hunters versus rifle hunters isn't even close.

I will do some digging to get the latest stats. That show total hunters and harvest rates.

I don't agree with their current plan, but it's a step in the right direction. The major issue is that a draw in some units and unlimited OTC in others will concentrate hunters in the OTC areas. I think the unintended consequence of there current plan will be a dramatic increase in the OTC rifle hunts. Which you are right will result in greater limitations on rifle hunters. Then the have to bow hunters will show back up, and so goes the spiral.
 
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