why no 30-06 as long range rifles?

[spare link]

so i spent the afternoon watching the sniper show on the history channel. they took a bunch of different long/difficult shot and tried to recreate them with modern equipment. one of the shots was over 1000 meters with an Winchester model 70 in 30-06.

so now after watching this and reading the threads on long range rifles and people using huge fancy calibers, why is there no one going back to the roots of long range and shooing the 30-06?

the technology that we have is better than it was during Vietnam or either of the World Wars so i feel that we could easily be able to use the 30-06 for long range shooting.

is my thinking wrong? i understand that the other calibers might be better trajectory wise, but if a man can use a old 4x fixed power scope and hit 1000 meter target with enough to still pack a punch who does no one still do it today? i thinking more on the lines of target shooting and not as much as hunting, although it would be possible.

[upland bird hunter]

Originally Posted by spare link

so i spent the afternoon watching the sniper show on the history channel. they took a bunch of different long/difficult shot and tried to recreate them with modern equipment. one of the shots was over 1000 meters with an Winchester model 70 in 30-06.

so now after watching this and reading the threads on long range rifles and people using huge fancy calibers, why is there no one going back to the roots of long range and shooing the 30-06?

the technology that we have is better than it was during Vietnam or either of the World Wars so i feel that we could easily be able to use the 30-06 for long range shooting.

is my thinking wrong? i understand that the other calibers might be better trajectory wise, but if a man can use a old 4x fixed power scope and hit 1000 meter target with enough to still pack a punch who does no one still do it today? i thinking more on the lines of target shooting and not as much as hunting, although it would be possible.

I hunt with one. I think the reason people don't use the 30-06 is cause the people that would be interested are using the better round. It's the same reason the millitary switched. I also watched those shows today. I am not sure if you knew that chuck mawhinney is from lakeview oregon.

[Quaka Wacka]

Nothing really wrong with it for target shooting. It lacks a little HP whe it come to hunting big game long range. There are just better options out there for the long range game. And when guys are spending a bunch of money having rifles built, they choose the caliber carefully.

[Flatfish]

The long and short of it is time of flight.

We can manipulate this number thru velocity at the muzzle and BC of the bullet.

There are a bunch of other variables, but we can control these two.

We can have extreme high velocity and relatively low BC (See .17 Remington), and still have a fairly short time of flight simply because of the 4000+fps muzzle velocity...... Or we can go down to 'low' velocity (Say 2700fps) and extreme high BC and the slug takes the same amount of time to cover the same distance. Both will fall the same amount in that distance.

Bottom line is, shorter time of flight=less drop. The magnum chamberings (There is a pile to choose from) shoots heavier slugs at the same speeds as a 30-06 shoots lighter less efficient bullets.

The single biggest difference between hunting big game and hunting people during war is, you can wound a person and it could be considered a positive thing on the battlefield. But to wound big game is not acceptable.

I generally dislike the long range conversation that is very popular right now. But if you forced me to build a 500-1000 yard rifle for big game, it would be chambered in a large volume hull in a bore with very high BC slugs.

This is coming from a guy who has owned 4 30-06s.

[Dan360]

I agree. People are the thinnest of thin skinned game. For this, cartridges like the 308 and 30-06 (which were chosen out of convenience by military snipers, not out of preference) are just fine. The margin of error is much greater.

For animals, there is a much smaller margin of error because wounding isn't acceptable and quick kills are much more important. Faster cartridges decrease the effect of variables on the shot.

I don't think any of this means a lick until you get past 400 yards though. If you're a 400-or-less yard hunter like me, handling characteristics and reliability are far more important.

[ehunter]

A 308 is still considered a good long range rifle by some shooters. Probably because the 308 and 06 are so boring to some people. As Dan pointed out to 400 yards its all about how the gun feels in your hands after that a heavier rifle and excellent glass come into play. Heck I have trouble seeing game beyond 400 yards and I have tried to shoot ants with the Beebe gun when I was a kid I was not even good at that

[RS2G]

As flat fish said it’s all about the numbers. But too many people spend way too much time online and in the reloading manuals building the perfect dragon slayer in their mind. In the long-range community there is a trend towards bigger is better. It’s almost like some of these guys think that the game animals we are hunting develop thicker hides and bigger bones every year.( I just read a post claiming a 7mm rem mag was marginal at 500 yards on an elk???) In the post mortem interview of the game animals I have taken so far not one could identify the caliber let alone the muzzle velocity of the weapon I killed them with.

I have a couple of friends that play with .30-.06’s out to 1,000 yards pushing a 210 SMK and do very well. It’s not providing the velocity of say a 300 win. But it gets the job done. I personally would not have a problem using an .06 I was very comfortable and practiced with on elk to around 700 depending on the conditions. It works fine; there are just others that work better, even with the same case.

The .06 case is a good one when used to drive the right caliber, my .280 rem is almost done and I can’t wait to play with it. I know of several elk that have been taken at 600+ yards with one shot kills with .280’s. You can load it up to nip at the heels of a 7mm Rem and provides way less felt recoil.

There are a lot of folks that think they have to have a case that lights up 90+ grains of powder at a whack to play. Big magnum cases are harder to shoot, expensive to load, and more expensive to build than anything built with an .06 case at its core. It’s just not “cool”.

[C-lice]

The reasons I've heard always seem to come down to "Magnums drop less." This is true, but to me, I'd rather see a person who knows precisely how much his .30-'06 drops at 500 (or 1000) yards take a shot than someone who figures it's 'about 3 feet' with their .300 TurboKillerMagnum.

I think it's more important to know your own gun, bullet, and load. I think that lots of people think they can narrow the learning curve by reducing the 'drop' without doing all the other necessary things to become good long-range shooters.

Having said that, I find it entirely reasonable that a good long-range shooter would prefer a load and cartridge that shoots flatter and hits harder at long range. I just don't see magnum velocities as a suitable substitute for knowledge, skill and experience.

[baltz526]

Shooting at a large sheet of paper at anything over 500yds with a 30-06 is a fine hobby. Hunting bullets are designed to perform inside a velocity range. Take a .308 180gr nosler ballistic tip. It is designed for impact velocitys between About 3000fps and 1800fps. If you start at 2800fps the 180gr ballistic tip is below its design velocity about 600yds from muzzle. On the best day the the 30-06 is a fair 500yrd deer rifle, retaining just over 1900fps With a bullet designed to expand at this impact velocity. Shoot all the targets you want with the 30-06 beyond 500yds, But bullet velocity for expansion fades very fast for hunting beyond 500yds. Bullet performance on impact is the limiting factor on all long range hunting. Mega magnums provide this retained velocity.

[Hunt'nFish]

Jerrod, I think caliber has little to do w/ sniping ability.
Snipers and the military in general have used the 1903 Springfield .30-06 to great effectiveness. Even in the early years of Vietnam I believe many of the Mod70's first used were .30-06's. Then considering the development of the M14, M60 and the .308nato round, they switched to that caliber. And even though the .308 produces LESS velocity than the .30-06, snipers still used it to great effectiveness.

But what I think is MORE important than caliber is optics & training.
I think if you issued a well trained sniper a .223 w/ a good scope, he would still remain effective....although limited in range. In fact I would say given the current std arms & optics on our M16's today each soldier, now in effect, IS a potential "entry level" sniper.

Which brings us to where I'm headed. Caliber has EVERYTHING to do w/ maximum range.
A .223 goes sub-sonic and starts to tumble MUCH closer than the .308, .30-06, or .300win.
And if you look at the progression of sniping equipment technology; bullets, rifles, optics, rangfinders and training, the only limitation has been the caliber. So as is only natural, as our young snipers have proven themselves increasingly more and more capable, we have been smart enough to place in their hands the very best technology has to offer.

Just look at what were using today...... the .50BMG in Barretts, Cheytac's and the like.
And I would not be surprised to hear a wide array of non-std arms are used as well.
I think if a sniper where on a hilltop and knew the enemy was "over there" & out of range he would be trying to mount a scope on the biggest "gun" available to him. Gunny Hathcock is proof of that.

So I would not get hung up on calibers, and discussions about WHY the .30-06 is no longer used, because the answer is as long as their is bigger & better, snipers will gravitate towards it. It's only natural. That's why it's called death from a far. We will ALWAYS prefer to shoot from ranges our enemies are not capable of returning fire from.
Our boys have SKILLS! The best skills, equipment and training in the world.

I believe someone above pointed out that humans are among the thinnest skinned animals on earth.
It really doesn't take much, by way of bullet energy & momentum to kill us.

Long range hunting is different, we need LOTS of energy & momentum to put down our quarry.
Many times the .308 & .30-06 are not enough to make humane long range one shot kills.
So that is why most long range hunters are building rifles on very large powerful cartridges.
I have always used 2000ft-lbs of impact energy combined w/ a good tough bullet 30cal 180gr or bigger bullet as my minimum requirement for elk. 1000ft-lbs for deer.
Now go look at what calibers produce 2000ft-lbs at 500yds, now compare which will carry that to 750yds.
I think you'll soon see a pattern. Bigger, faster, sleeker is ALWAYS better.

For instance take the .30-06 zero it at 250yds & compare the 150gr bullet to a 180gr bullet out to 500yds, bigger always wins.
I have never understood WHY folks use 150gr bullets in the .30-06, they aren't flatter if your sighted in correctly.


I also think Flatfish has very good points about time of flight.
Faster time of flight equals less drop AND wind drift. I agree 100%!!!
Hunt'nFish

[Dr Strangelove]

Anyone remember the rifle Carlos Hathcock used in Vietnam?

He used two:
Winchester Model 70 30/06 for up to 1000yds.
Browning 50cal for up to 2500yds.
Both with the same 8x Unertal scope.

The only caliber I would consider punching elk at 1000 yards, though morally reprehensible, would be a 338 Lapua or any Cheytac monster. If the 50 BMG were legal for big game, that would be OK too, but you carry it, OK?

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Anyone remember the rifle Carlos Hathcock used in Vietnam?

He used two:
Winchester Model 70 30/06 for up to 1000yds.
Browning 50cal for up to 2500yds.
Both with the same 8x Unertl scope.

The only caliber I would consider punching elk at 1000 yards, though morally reprehensible, would be a 338 Lapua or any Cheytac monster. If the 50 BMG were legal for big game, that would be OK too, but you carry it, OK?

That was who I was referring to.
I don't think it would've mattered what caliber he used, he was a hunter on the most dangerous safari of them all. And he had skills.


Oh and no I didn't know Chuck Mawhinney is from Lakeview, OR. That IS cool. He is another hunter with skills. In fact if I'm not mistaken I believe he actually had a few more confirms than Carlos had. Both men are legendary idols IMO.
Hunt'nFish

[Central OR Bowhunt]

I love these kind of threads, learn so much from em.

[RS2G]

The short answer to why the .06 is no longer used by military snipers…..the ammunition is not in the supply chain. In combat a sniper can go up to any platoon and get a resupply of ammo. Be it 5.56, 7.62 or .50. Its one stop shopping.

As far as each soldier being an “entry level sniper”…… I don’t think so. You ever shot a rack grade M4 or M16? I don’t care what optic you put on them, your darn lucky to get under a minute and a half with ball ammo. The army came out with a program called the squad designated marksmen around 2004. It’s a M16A-4 with an ACOG in the hands of the best shooter in the squad. It’s a 300 meter qualification course. There is far more to being a “sniper” than the gun in his hands let alone what it’s chambered in.

The moral absurdity that it’s o.k. to kill people with a .308 or even a .223 but you have to use a testosterone infused magnum to kill a game animal at comparable distances still blows my mind. I guess I owe more to the game I now hunt than the insurgents I fought against in combat.

The vast majority of hunters are walking around over gunned. You can draw the line in the sand at any distance you want, but I know plenty of folks packing around wby’s and ultra mags that can’t shoot accurately past a distance an .06 would be plenty for.

[spare link]

thanks guy nice to hear from someone who know a lot more than me. i was thinking the same as what was said above just want to hear what everyone else thought.

[elkhuntr28]

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

. . . If the 50 BMG were legal for big game, that would be OK too, but you carry it, OK?

I can not find any restriction against the .50 BMG for hunting big game. Only minimum of .22 cal centerfire for deer and minimum .24 cal for elk.

But you are correct. . . who would want to carry one. . . .

[hilclimber]

Originally Posted by upland bird hunter

I hunt with one. I think the reason people don't use the 30-06 is cause the people that would be interested are using the better round. It's the same reason the millitary switched. I also watched those shows today. I am not sure if you knew that chuck mawhinney is from lakeview oregon.

He may be from there, but he has lived in Baker City area for 20+ years...I worked with his son back in the day, and bumped into him again last summer.

[Quaka Wacka]

Originally Posted by RS2G

The moral absurdity that it’s o.k. to kill people with a .308 or even a .223 but you have to use a testosterone infused magnum to kill a game animal at comparable distances still blows my mind. I guess I owe more to the game I now hunt than the insurgents I fought against in combat.
.

Your comparing apples and oranges. Somebody hit on it earlier. But, when shooting at people, you are trying to make them "combat ineffective" and dead or wounded both work. In most cases wounded is better, because they will require aid from the other guys that are still shooting at you, reducing thier combat effectiveness. Wounding a human in war is not the same as wounding and losing a game animal. You are not in a fight for your life while chaseing elk, your hunting. Not to say that animal has more value than a human life, but the circumstances are completely different.

Nobody said you need a magnum to kill game, but you need more than ball ammo and 200ft/lbs. An elk can weigh more than 7 times as much as a 160lb man. It would be foolish to think you can kill them just as easy. I'd say it'd be a push when it comes to deer to man comparison.(depending on the species of deer)

It is completely irrisponsible to hunt game at ranges where your weapon lacks the energy to humanely and consistantly kill game. "Humanely and consistantly" is hard to define, but I'm similar to Mikes thinking and use 1000ft/lbs for deer and 1500ft/lbs as a cutoff for elk. These aren't arbitrary numbers, they have been preeched by expierenced hunters and exsperts for decades. Some people will push it a little when it comes to these numbers, some will push it a lot. Unfortunatly when they roll the dice and lose, a game animal gets wasted.

[RS2G]

Originally Posted by Quaka Wacka

Your comparing apples and oranges. Somebody hit on it earlier. But, when shooting at people, you are trying to make them "combat ineffective" and dead or wounded both work. In most cases wounded is better, because they will require aid from the other guys that are still shooting at you, reducing thier combat effectiveness. Wounding a human in war is not the same as wounding and losing a game animal. You are not in a fight for your life while chaseing elk, your hunting. Not to say that animal has more value than a human life, but the circumstances are completely different.

Nobody said you need a magnum to kill game, but you need more than ball ammo and 200ft/lbs. An elk can weigh more than 7 times as much as a 160lb man. It would be foolish to think you can kill them just as easy. I'd say it'd be a push when it comes to deer to man comparison.(depending on the species of deer)

It is completely irrisponsible to hunt game at ranges where your weapon lacks the energy to humanely and consistantly kill game. "Humanely and consistantly" is hard to define, but I'm similar to Mikes thinking and use 1000ft/lbs for deer and 1500ft/lbs as a cutoff for elk. These aren't arbitrary numbers, they have been preeched by expierenced hunters and exsperts for decades. Some people will push it a little when it comes to these numbers, some will push it a lot. Unfortunatly when they roll the dice and lose, a game animal gets wasted.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most if not all of what your saying. Heck I own and hunt with a .338-.378 wby.... I think it's just crazy when folks start talking about the "ethics" of a cartrige or shot on a hunting forum.

Just sit back and think about it for a minute. I don't think it's as apples and oranges as folks like to think.

These animals are not bullet proof, people have been killing them with sharp sticks and fast flying rocks for thousands of years. I just see the trend of bigger is allways better as something that needs to be checked sometimes.

[Flatfish]

Originally Posted by RS2G

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most if not all of what your saying. Heck I own and hunt with a .338-.378 wby.... I think it's just crazy when folks start talking about the "ethics" of a cartrige or shot on a hunting forum.

Just sit back and think about it for a minute. I don't think it's as apples and oranges as folks like to think.

These animals are not bullet proof, people have been killing them with sharp sticks and fast flying rocks for thousands of years. I just see the trend of bigger is allways better as something that needs to be checked sometimes.

The main reason I feel a magnum is helpful in long range hunting (Wartime objectives have already been covered) is terminal bullet performance.

As you likely know, solid spitzer bullets do not necessarily penetrate the target in a straight line. Often times, they will tumble. Once a bullet tumbles, it's anybody's guess as to what direction it will eventually travel in.

Hunting (Expanding) bullets begin to act as a solid when velocity goes below what will cause expansion.

When we give away straight line penetration due a pointed bullet that does not expand, we give up reliable kills.

Since the original post was about the 30-06, a chambering with medium velocity with hunting weight bullets of mediocre BC, I feel it is necessary to take these variables into consideration.

Go shoot some low velocity loads with spitzer bullets into a pile of wet newspaper. It may suprise you how drastic the dircetional changes are from original flight path.

[Quaka Wacka]

Originally Posted by RS2G

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most if not all of what your saying. Heck I own and hunt with a .338-.378 wby.... I think it's just crazy when folks start talking about the "ethics" of a cartrige or shot on a hunting forum.

Just sit back and think about it for a minute. I don't think it's as apples and oranges as folks like to think.

These animals are not bullet proof, people have been killing them with sharp sticks and fast flying rocks for thousands of years. I just see the trend of bigger is allways better as something that needs to be checked sometimes.

Ethics will always be a topic on hunting forums, and its important to promote good ethics in these discussions. There are lots of new hunters out there who aren't being "taught" by dad and grandpa, like a lot of us were. They are essentially setting thier moral compass to the norms of the hunting board comunity (here and other sites). While I don't buy into every little bit of hype about losing our gun ownership and hunting rights; when it comes right down to it, these rights and privliges our really "ours to lose". So promoting good ethics, and responsible gun ownership is really the best way to protect these rights and privliges.

All the preachy stuff aside, I agree people have been killing these critters for thounds of years with lesser weapons, but I think its fair to assume they have wounded them too. The point most of us were trying to get at about the 3006, is it has its limits. Every cartridge does. Theres a point, where every cartridge no longer can make reliable kills. Everybody should know that cutoff before the head to the woods and stick to it. With some of my rifles they run out of energy before I run out of ability, with others I'm the limiting factor. I just have to shoot enought ot know where that is.

Your comment about trending towards bigger and faster is indisputable. A lot of guys, "want a long range setup" before they thier skill level surpasses the range you could ethically do with a 30.06. I see them up at the public sight in days at Clark every year. They tell me all about thier new custom 300 Ultra, and who made it, what barrel, action.... All sitting next to the box of factory ammo, using the ballistic table on the back. Then I watch as they can barely scrape together a 5" group at 100. It would appear that most guys assume you can buy a long range setup, and it will make 700yard shots just as easy as 300yard. All with a rifle that kicks 50-70% more. Guess thats why a lot of these end up back in the classifieds.

[afp]

Much of the time, when we think of a 30-06, we think of a 22" barreled rifle shooting 180 grain factory ammo at 2600-2700 fps. However, that is not the combination anyone would use for long range. A 30" barreled 30-06 will probably shoot a 200 grain Accubond at 2850+ fps. At that velocity, the bullet is traveling 1500 fps at 1000 yds--that will make a 30 caliber hole in the vitals of a deer or elk.

A 300 RUM shooting that same bullet at 3300 fps would be going 1800 fps at 1000 yds. The bullet probably won't expand and will likely make a 30 cal hole in the vitals.

Not a lot of practical difference, though I prefer a big 338 for that application.

[Headhunter]

RS2G thank you for your service

[RS2G]

Originally Posted by Quaka Wacka

Your comment about trending towards bigger and faster is indisputable. A lot of guys, "want a long range setup" before they thier skill level surpasses the range you could ethically do with a 30.06. I see them up at the public sight in days at Clark every year. They tell me all about thier new custom 300 Ultra, and who made it, what barrel, action.... All sitting next to the box of factory ammo, using the ballistic table on the back. Then I watch as they can barely scrape together a 5" group at 100. It would appear that most guys assume you can buy a long range setup, and it will make 700yard shots just as easy as 300yard. All with a rifle that kicks 50-70% more. Guess thats why a lot of these end up back in the classifieds.

Originally Posted by Headhunter

RS2G thank you for your service

Your welcome, I loved every minute of it.

[SeanD]

Some guys shoot the 30-06 long range, but its not as popular for some reason. Loaded with a 208amax (bc=0.648) or a 155 lapua scenar (bc=0.508) the 30-06 is kind of impressive.

[basic instinct]

Originally Posted by upland bird hunter

I hunt with one. I think the reason people don't use the 30-06 is cause the people that would be interested are using the better round. It's the same reason the millitary switched. I also watched those shows today. I am not sure if you knew that chuck mawhinney is from lakeview oregon.

Everyone from Lakeview is COOL!!!

[Aksportjon]

7mm ultra mag is what i would shoot.

[Duckwheat]

Not sexy enough. Does not generate the testosterone surge that a big gun will among all of the shooters bud's. It does not matter wether he can shoot it, just the story leading up to shooting it.

DW

[afp]

If I ever get back into 1K BR, I think I'll build a 30-06. The trend has been away from ultra high BC bullets and competitors have often found 187 to 200 grain bullets provide the best accuracy with the least drift with a 30 cal. A 30" barreled 30-06 will keep such bullets supersonic to 1000 yds and will have double the barrel life of even a 300 WSM. That is a lot to like.

[jonn5335]

Originally Posted by RS2G

As flat fish said it’s all about the numbers. But too many people spend way too much time online and in the reloading manuals building the perfect dragon slayer in their mind. In the long-range community there is a trend towards bigger is better. It’s almost like some of these guys think that the game animals we are hunting develop thicker hides and bigger bones every year.( I just read a post claiming a 7mm rem mag was marginal at 500 yards on an elk???) In the post mortem interview of the game animals I have taken so far not one could identify the caliber let alone the muzzle velocity of the weapon I killed them with.

I have a couple of friends that play with .30-.06’s out to 1,000 yards pushing a 210 SMK and do very well. It’s not providing the velocity of say a 300 win. But it gets the job done. I personally would not have a problem using an .06 I was very comfortable and practiced with on elk to around 700 depending on the conditions. It works fine; there are just others that work better, even with the same case.

The .06 case is a good one when used to drive the right caliber, my .280 rem is almost done and I can’t wait to play with it. I know of several elk that have been taken at 600+ yards with one shot kills with .280’s. You can load it up to nip at the heels of a 7mm Rem and provides way less felt recoil.

There are a lot of folks that think they have to have a case that lights up 90+ grains of powder at a whack to play. Big magnum cases are harder to shoot, expensive to load, and more expensive to build than anything built with an .06 case at its core. It’s just not “cool”.

I agree I read a post not to long ago saying 280's were to small at any distance for elk and I would bet money more elk have died at the hands of a 22lr than a 300 ultra as far as an .06 I would'nt shoot more than 200-300 yards not because of the round just because I can't hit spit beyond 300 well at least I admit it

[connerroper]

would a .270 be better than a 30-06 at long ranges?

[Magnum61]

To Make a .270 not in the Varmint LR category you would need a lot more velocity with a 150gr.+ bullet, in generics. But by the time you achieve that hot post of BC to Velocity and accuracy, you would realize you could've done it better, more efficiently, and with same recoil with a 7mm option and stepped into something that proven itself out at distances.

A good place to start for big game is looking at having a bullet that has .500+ in BC and starts out at 2850-3000fps. That velocity is a real efficient zone to be consistent. You can get A LOT faster but your accuracy and consistency dwindles more readily and you lose it other numbers also.

I've had quite a bit of experience with LR and shooting everything from 22-250s to a 338 Big Baer. I'm really happy with my 300 Win Mag shooting 210 Bergers. You usually end up backing down a 300 RUM within 80fps of a 300 Win to get super consistent accuracy. If you want efficient and cost effective but great range then the next logical step is the 338 Edge, easy reloading compared to some 338s.

[waterbobber]

Originally Posted by afp

If I ever get back into 1K BR, I think I'll build a 30-06. The trend has been away from ultra high BC bullets and competitors have often found 187 to 200 grain bullets provide the best accuracy with the least drift with a 30 cal. A 30" barreled 30-06 will keep such bullets supersonic to 1000 yds and will have double the barrel life of even a 300 WSM. That is a lot to like.

I'm a big 30-06 fan as well, especially with newer powders. I'll bet a good -06 with a high quality barrel against about anything out to 1000 yards or so ....and with good barrel life and low recoil. Doping the wind and other atmospheric conditions and good trigger control separates the winners from the novices far more than supermags and expensive optics. There's no shortcut to experience in the long range game. A 190 Matchking at about 2750-2850 fps is a serious load for the long range game.

Lapua Brass, 60.5 grns RL-22, 190 MK, FED. primers = 2870fps

[Brian_w_l]

Originally Posted by waterbobber

I'm a big 30-06 fan as well, especially with newer powders. I'll bet a good -06 with a high quality barrel against about anything out to 1000 yards or so ....and with good barrel life and low recoil. Doping the wind and other atmospheric conditions and good trigger control separates the winners from the novices far more than supermags and expensive optics. There's no shortcut to experience in the long range game. A 190 Matchking at about 2750-2850 fps is a serious load for the long range game.

Lapua Brass, 60.5 grns RL-22, 190 MK, FED. primers = 2870fps

whats the barrel length, and whos the maker?

[lingslayer]

Originally Posted by Magnum61

To Make a .270 not in the Varmint LR category you would need a lot more velocity with a 150gr.+ bullet, in generics. But by the time you achieve that hot post of BC to Velocity and accuracy, you would realize you could've done it better, more efficiently, and with same recoil with a 7mm option and stepped into something that proven itself out at distances.

A good place to start for big game is looking at having a bullet that has .500+ in BC and starts out at 2850-3000fps. That velocity is a real efficient zone to be consistent. You can get A LOT faster but your accuracy and consistency dwindles more readily and you lose it other numbers also.

Odd you should use those numbers for criteria, while discounting the .270.
The 150gr SST or interbond in .277 has a b.c of .525, and the same sectional density as a 180gr .30 cal slug.
Then there's the fact that a .270Win cartridge has no problem pushing one ~2900fps out of a 24" barrel, and will make 2850fps from a 22" tube pretty easily.

You just made a great case for the .270 on elk, even beyond 300yds.
But then again, many of us have known that for years!

[olddon]

Why spend $50.00 for high caliber ammo when you can spend $15.00 on 30-06 and still get-ur-done. Just be the hunter.

[Norm]

Originally Posted by waterbobber

I'm a big 30-06 fan as well, especially with newer powders. I'll bet a good -06 with a high quality barrel against about anything out to 1000 yards or so ....and with good barrel life and low recoil. Doping the wind and other atmospheric conditions and good trigger control separates the winners from the novices far more than supermags and expensive optics. There's no shortcut to experience in the long range game. A 190 Matchking at about 2750-2850 fps is a serious load for the long range game.

Lapua Brass, 60.5 grns RL-22, 190 MK, FED. primers = 2870fps

That a load is "probably way" over SAAMI spec for a 30-06 and could be dangerous in a factory rifle. Custom benchrest rifles are in a different world than most of us play. I've seen some factory 30-06 180gr factory ammo rated at over 2800fps. Most 180gr 30-06 loads would be lucky to hit 2700 in a 24 barrel.

With the high BC of some modern bullets and new powders there are some people pushing the boundaries of the old 30-06. I've seen guys posting amazing velocities with RL17, but they were in uncharted territory as far as chamber pressure .

[colddeadfingers]

is it respectfull to the game animal if you are shooting past 500 yards .i know there is capable amo .but i mean in a moral sence.400 yards use to be long range for hunting and 30 06 was great.my boss killed an elk at 400 yards with his 270 and it droped like a rock.useing cheap 150 grain core loct,s.i think people have goten caried awy with the mine is biger faster and goes farther

[Central OR Bowhunt]

Dont forget that these long range rigs are also used primary for target shooting or competition shooting. Or that is what my understanding on a lot of the long range guys use them for.

[SeanD]

Originally Posted by Norm

That a load is "probably way" over SAAMI spec for a 30-06 and could be dangerous in a factory rifle. Custom benchrest rifles are in a different world than most of us play. I've seen some factory 30-06 180gr factory ammo rated at over 2800fps. Most 180gr 30-06 loads would be lucky to hit 2700 in a 24 barrel.

With the high BC of some modern bullets and new powders there are some people pushing the boundaries of the old 30-06. I've seen guys posting amazing velocities with RL17, but they were in uncharted territory as far as chamber pressure .

I have seen reports of pressure testing with RL 17. Pretty much matches RL 22 for velocity/pressure with a 180. Around 2850fps with a 24" barrel was around 62ksi.

[afp]

Originally Posted by Norm

With the high BC of some modern bullets and new powders there are some people pushing the boundaries of the old 30-06. I've seen guys posting amazing velocities with RL17, but they were in uncharted territory as far as chamber pressure .

The problem is 30-06 loads are usually understated becasue of the old rifles the round was originally chambered for. When you load up a 30-06 to the same SAAMI safe pressures as a 270 or 7mm mag, the 30-06 steps up quite a bit.

[afp]

Originally Posted by Magnum61

To Make a .270 not in the Varmint LR category you would need a lot more velocity with a 150gr.+ bullet, in generics. But by the time you achieve that hot post of BC to Velocity and accuracy, you would realize you could've done it better, more efficiently, and with same recoil with a 7mm option and stepped into something that proven itself out at distances.

A good place to start for big game is looking at having a bullet that has .500+ in BC and starts out at 2850-3000fps. That velocity is a real efficient zone to be consistent. You can get A LOT faster but your accuracy and consistency dwindles more readily and you lose it other numbers also.

I've had quite a bit of experience with LR and shooting everything from 22-250s to a 338 Big Baer. I'm really happy with my 300 Win Mag shooting 210 Bergers. You usually end up backing down a 300 RUM within 80fps of a 300 Win to get super consistent accuracy. If you want efficient and cost effective but great range then the next logical step is the 338 Edge, easy reloading compared to some 338s.

It's clear you do have significant long range shooting experience. I too came to the same conclusion, that a .500-.550 BC bullet at 2850-3000 fps is a very hard combination to top out to 1000 yds, probably even 1200. In fact, that is the conclusion many long range competitors seem to come to.

[waterbobber]

Originally Posted by Brian_w_l

whats the barrel length, and whos the maker?

HS Prec 24" This is not a "rocks and dynamite" load, as Nosler lists a maximum load for 180 Partitions at 61.0 grains of RL-22 AND 2872 FPS. Sierras generally don't give as much pressure as Partitions and as has been stated, most manuals don't load the 06 to maximum pressure with deference to old Enfields & Springfields still out there. I'm not saying this is a mild load either. H-4350, and SC-H4831 work well in the old 30-06. I don't think you could hit maximum pressure in the 30-06 with 190-210 grain bullets and H4831 even with high compression. It's just too slow...but can be quite accurate and you can get over 2700fps with a 190MK in a 24" bbl. It also used to be a pretty cheap powder to load.

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by waterbobber

HS Prec 24" This is not a "rocks and dynamite" load, as Nosler lists a maximum load for 180 Partitions at 61.0 grains of RL-22 AND 2872 FPS. Sierras generally don't give as much pressure as Partitions and as has been stated, most manuals don't load the 06 to maximum pressure with deference to old Enfields still out there. I'm not saying this is a mild load either. H-4350, and SC-H4831 work well in the old 30-06. I don't think you could hit maximum pressure in the 30-06 with 190-210 grain bullets and H4831 even with high compression. It's just too slow...but can be quite accurate and you can get over 2700fps in a 24" bbl. It also used to be a pretty cheap powder to load.

You can load a 200gr partition using h4831sc in the 30-06 case over pressure, It takes some work to settle the powder, then a crimp is needed to keep the bullet in the case. But it is possible to get to the point of blowing primers. Military brass helps with cci250 primers to light it.