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Old 05-22-2020, 09:55 AM   #1
WiskeyJaR
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Default Churches are essential

President Trump just declared churches are essential and are to be open.
Not trying to be a Political post, but it is a good like the president recognized that churches should be open.

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Old 05-22-2020, 10:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: Churches are essential

I think people of all parties wanted this to happen. That’s not the same as saying that people at risk should attend in person.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Of course folks that are sick should not be going out in public, Stores, Bars, Churches or anywhere else, whether they have a simple cold or the flu or anything else.....
Healthy folks should be able to go to their churches and pray to their God for comfort.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Funny the level of outrage if government is offering to make a grant to a parochial school - separation of church and state - but it's just fine and dandy for government to tell churches they can't open to worshipers. And if they do, they will be closed permanently. People of faith have the inherent right to live the life they believe and to assemble and worship as they chose. Churches should never have been restricted in the first place.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: Churches are essential

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Originally Posted by WiskeyJaR View Post
Of course folks that are sick should not be going out in public, Stores, Bars, Churches or anywhere else, whether they have a simple cold or the flu or anything else.....
Healthy folks should be able to go to their churches and pray to their God for comfort.
The problem right now is carriers showing no symptoms. The states opening early are seeing increased incidents of the virus as are churches which are meeting in person. You can be a carrier and infect others putting them at risk. It's not just old folks like me at risk, it is all age groups. No one has to go to a physical church to pray, you can do it at home, on your boat, while on the bank of lake or stream, virtually anywhere.

We all miss congregating together to worship, but we also have a responsibility to those we miss to keep them healthy.
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Old 05-22-2020, 10:55 AM   #6
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Default Re: Churches are essential

From the stats I’ve seen, there are only small differences between the states when they are open and when they aren’t. Keep in mind that states have seen almost random increases while staying closed as well.

Of course, one of the main reasons why this country exists is that it offered freedom to practice whatever religion you want. Nobody gets to tell someone else they don’t have to pray with others which some would say is fundamental to their faith.

Besides, most people are at risk because they go to other “essential” places like liquor stores, grocery stores, retail stores, etc. Seems to me that if one person thinks they have to have their liquor, another person should be able to go to their house of worship if they want.

For anyone who goes outside the home, or has someone in the home go out, all risk is not eliminated.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Churches are essential

I can understand the part of being a courier and not show signs, so need to be careful in crowds.
If the "gentlemen's clubs" are open and operating, which they are, then how come a place of worship can not be open?
Seems like there not a constant ruling across the board as to what should and should not be opened. Media sure runs stories of people getting sick while attending churches, but not a single story of anyone getting sick while attending bar someplace, ya mean to tell me that never happened? Heck there all kinds of places that are open that are way more personal contact then churches in general. <shrugs> just me way of thinking, is all
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Churches are essential

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Originally Posted by WiskeyJaR View Post
I can understand the part of being a courier and not show signs, so need to be careful in crowds.
If the "gentlemen's clubs" are open and operating, which they are, then how come a place of worship can not be open?
Seems like there not a constant ruling across the board as to what should and should not be opened. Media sure runs stories of people getting sick while attending churches, but not a single story of anyone getting sick while attending bar someplace, ya mean to tell me that never happened? Heck there all kinds of places that are open that are way more personal contact then churches in general. <shrugs> just me way of thinking, is all
Not exactly true. What "gentlemen's clubs" were open? I saw one story about a drive through club, but never saw or heard of anything else open. But I don't drive by any either. And there was a big story that I saw on multiple news sources about a guy who visited 5 clubs in one night while actively shedding viruses and all the tracing they have to do now.

Everybody I know who goes to church (family and friends) have been "attending" church every Sunday. Participating in bible study too. Not all in the same building, but fully involved in fellowship.

The one church that is making the news for having services in their church is now closed down because so many families are now sick. All at the same time.

Things are opening back up, but just like when Legionnaire's and flus shut down schools, it will cause some things to shut down again.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Churches are essential

To me ALL are essential. you cant tell me 1 store or another or 1 thing or another is essential. That is not the governments job.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Churches are essential

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Originally Posted by oldsweng View Post
The problem right now is carriers showing no symptoms. The states opening early are seeing increased incidents of the virus as are churches which are meeting in person. You can be a carrier and infect others putting them at risk. It's not just old folks like me at risk, it is all age groups. No one has to go to a physical church to pray, you can do it at home, on your boat, while on the bank of lake or stream, virtually anywhere.

We all miss congregating together to worship, but we also have a responsibility to those we miss to keep them healthy.

So...no. The figures do not support the assertion that states that have opened are seeing an increase. Some may, others are not. And those that do are not showing a consistent pattern. Further, when you open on Friday and a larger number comes out for Saturday, it had nothing to do with opening, because there wasn’t sufficient time for any of those carriers to infect anyone new to then show symptoms or test positive. Those encounters would have happened before the reopen.

Further, if it did occur, so what ? We do not have a hospital bed shortage or icu shortage or even a ppe shortage. The curve has been flattened, we have the capacity to treat and test. It is time to get functioning again.

Zero infection rate is not realistic as a standard, nor is it reasonable to impose ICU level sterile environments as the new standard for out in public spaces.

Everyone’s job is essential to them and their family. Some of us are still working because we can, and that is keeping the funding going to pay people not to work and build field hospitals that never treat a single patient because the need did not materialize.


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Old 05-22-2020, 04:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Wash your hands and say your prayers
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Maybe they could start paying taxes.

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Old 05-22-2020, 05:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Crazy. Liquor stores are essential! But not AA meetings.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Are you surprised at this ignoring of state's rights?

You shouldn't be.
The president's re-election depends on evangelical Christians.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Churches are essential

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Originally Posted by garyk View Post
Are you surprised at this ignoring of state's rights?

You shouldn't be.
The president's re-election depends on evangelical Christians.
State rights do not surpass Constitutional rights, Barr is ready to pounce on any who disagree.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Churches are essential

You mean Roy Cone.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Churches are essential

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You mean Roy Cone.
I think you meant Roy Cohn even though that he had nothing to do with religion.

It seems you think that only one side is religious and wants to pray in person. My prediction is the states will back off or lose support from left/right/middle. Of course, some of the govs have already lost a ton of support, so maybe they don’t care any more.

The only people they’ll keep are those who never want to open or who are atheists. By my count, that’s not enough to win any race.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Churches are essential

I've only been in a church a few times in my adult life. I'll let you guys in on a little 'secret'. They are not essential. It is possible to get along in life just fine without going into a church.

Also, unless I am missing something, they are not being singled out for any special shutdown. The rules that they are subject to are for meeting of large groups, including movie theaters, concerts, clubs, bars, restaurants, gyms, museums, libraries, shopping malls, bowling allies, etc. Since they are not being singled out for any positive or negative treatment, there is nothing unconstitutional about regulating them along with similar places of gathering anymore than it is unconstitutional to require a church building to meet fire codes.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:37 PM   #19
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Hmmm. Thats the measure ? Ok, I’ll play. I’ve only been in the hospital a few times in my life. I also reckon that most people visit the ER less than 10 times their whole life. Guess that makes them nonessential, too ?

I’ll let you in on a little secret. It is not for any of us to decide whether anything is essential to anyone else. Especially in the matter of their church.

Or shall we mandate the wearing of hazmat suits outside the home, so nobody is at risk of any kind of germs ?


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Old 05-23-2020, 12:04 AM   #20
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Hmmm. Thats the measure ? Ok, I’ll play. I’ve only been in the hospital a few times in my life. I also reckon that most people visit the ER less than 10 times their whole life. Guess that makes them nonessential, too ?

I’ll let you in on a little secret. It is not for any of us to decide whether anything is essential to anyone else. Especially in the matter of their church.

Or shall we mandate the wearing of hazmat suits outside the home, so nobody is at risk of any kind of germs ?


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Yeah, I've only been to the hospital a few times also. But it was for health and life issue that were pretty essential. A difference in importance, that out ways the infrequency of visit. Non-essential medical care was stopped also with this pandemic also, with far more damage that a few months without church will ever so.

To your second point. We live in a social society were our actions effect others. When it comes actions that have the potential effect others, yes the others have a right to some say in to what extent those actions should be controlled. But it is a balancing act between the rights of an individual and rights of others to not be adverse affected by those actions. One has no right to willingly make themselves a vector of disease to the larger society. In the last few weeks/months it looked like gatherings of people in certain ways could essentially be doing that. So places where people gather have had rules applied to them based on the current understanding of the pandemic conditions at that time. Churches are noting special in this case as long as they are treated fairly and equally. In fact, it they are given special treatment, that would be an argument for unconstitutionality. The Government is supposed to be neutral on religion according tot the First Amendment.

To your third point. There is not abdication with this diseae that wearing a hazmat suit would have much more effect that staying 6 feet away form people, wearying a mask when that can't be avoided. So in that case, no that would place too much of a burden on an individual with little benefit to others.
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Old 05-23-2020, 04:51 AM   #21
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Default Re: Churches are essential

Actually, churches have been singled out by some govs which includes threats to churches. In one case, the church wasn’t “allowed” to hold service in their cars in the church parking lot. As ridiculous as that sounds, govs have been ridiculous.

Again, it’s not up to those who don’t go to church to tell others they shouldn’t attend and that includes governors. That’s like me saying you don’t need groceries because I have plenty. Like it or not, and in spite of what some guys/gals on tv want to tell you many countries and that includes the US have their foundations rooted in religion. So yeah, churches are special in this and many other countries.

Finally, other businesses that are open aren’t completely safe either. It’s some messed up logic to allow everyone to go to a store at once as many times as they want, but disallow any churches from meeting no matter how much social distancing they have.

But, we’ll see how it plays out. Stay tuned.
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