North Coast closed to Chinook fishing - www.ifish.net
The Oregonian's Bill Monroe!

Go Back   www.ifish.net > Ifish Fishing and Hunting > Ifish Community

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-12-2019, 10:05 AM   #1
fishbait
King Salmon
 
fishbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Posts: 8,876
Default North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Sad but probably necessary

https://myodfw.com/recreation-report...northwest-zone

fishbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-12-2019, 03:30 PM   #2
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbait View Post

Yeah, the closure of those rivers is probably a good idea. I will be looking to see next spring what the managers do with the 2020 commercial seasons from Oregon to Alaska on the salmon of other classes from those rivers.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2019, 03:31 PM   #3
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbait View Post

Yeah, the closure of those rivers is probably a good idea. I will be looking to see next spring what the managers do with the 2020 commercial seasons from Oregon to Alaska on the salmon of other classes from those rivers.

In the spring of 2019, the PFMC in its Salmon Stock Abundance paper noted that 2018 saw reduced numbers of spawning fall chinook in North Coast Oregon rivers and that 2019 would see 2019 stocks of North Oregon Coast chinook below recent years' average abundance:

"Based on the density index of total spawners, the generalized expectation for NOC stocks in 2019 is below recent years’ average abundance. Specifically, the 2018 spawner density in standard survey areas for the NOC averaged 90 spawners per mile the lowest since 2010."

In its summary of 2018 salmon escapement and abundance in the report issued in conjunction with setting the 2019 seasons, the ODFW noted that it expected "Poor Returns" in 2019 for Oregon Coast North Migrating Chinook.

.
So, both agencies correctly predicted that North Coast Fall Chinook would have poor returns in 2019. But when the commercial seasons were set, it was business as usual. They'll have another chance in 2020 to get it right. Will they? I doubt it.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-12-2019 at 04:20 PM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-12-2019, 04:15 PM   #4
Rank Amateur
King Salmon
 
Rank Amateur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Vernonia Or.
Posts: 15,203
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

I imagine all the held up fish are on the move now. Counted 6 coho in 30 minutes this morning, those fish must have been hung up in the river waiting for the rain, they can't get here that fast from the bay.
__________________
"Rivers and the inhabitants of the watery elements are made for wise men to contemplate and for fools to pass without consideration."- Izaak Walton

Team Fair Chase.
Team Fair Exit.
Team don't feed the trolls.
Rank Amateur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 10:25 AM   #5
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

So, the ODFW noted that there were poor returns in the Wilson this fall before those that were stuck in lower river pools were infested by the parasite. Then the rest of the North Coast rivers were closed because of poor returns. Here is the perfect example of how messed up the fishery "managers" are with regard to Oregon coastal chinook and how they are willing to accept their demise and extinction in order to give the Alaska trollers as much money as possible before the chinook wink out as a species.

The Pacific Salmon Treaty determines how many chinook Alaska, Canada and United States of Extinction get to catch over the 10 year duration of each new plan under the treaty. The latest 10 year plan went into effect on January 1, 2019. In the previous 10 year plan, Alaska had to take a 15 per cent reduction in the number of chinook it got to harvest from what it got in the prior 10 year plan. (Poor Alaska, I have to take a break to regain my composure as I am so broken up over poor Alaska.) In the new 10 year plan, it appears that Alaska took another 7.5% reduction in the new treaty.

With the Oregon North Coast rivers closed to chinook fishing this fall due to poor returns, here is how the Executive Director of the Alaska Trollers Association described Alaska's plight under the new treaty:

“It is disappointing that our state did not recover the 15 percent harvest share from the 2009 agreement and agreed to further reduce Alaska’s proportional share of the catch, even when stocks rebounded,” Executive Director of the Alaska Trollers Association (ATA) Amy Daugherty said."

Yikes, she said that stocks rebounded, which is absolutely not true. Both the PFMC and ODFW noted in their spring assessment reports that 2018 chinook returns were far less than the recent years average and that poor returns were expected in 2019, which is exactly what happened, contrary to Ms. Daugherty's statement.

As is well known, 78% of the catch of the Alaska commercial trollers catch originates in British Columbia, Washington and Oregon. It is pretty clear why Oregon coastal fall chinook runs are in bad shape. Yet, the officials of the United States of Extinction and the ODFW do nothing about the overharvest by Alaska and British Columbia except to reduce their take by miniscule amounts. Way to go, Oregon and USE.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #6
CatchinCoho
Cutthroat
 
CatchinCoho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Aloha, Oregon
Posts: 31
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

I'm probably going to be very unpopular for this- We should close Chinook fishing for 5 years in AK, WA, OR and CA. A million reasons to do it, not a single reason not to.... in my opinion.

Last edited by CatchinCoho; 12-14-2019 at 10:53 AM.
CatchinCoho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 12:08 PM   #7
Rank Amateur
King Salmon
 
Rank Amateur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Vernonia Or.
Posts: 15,203
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Hopefully an ESA listing with overrule the PST, well at least in regards to Alaska, but I will not hold my breathe, we are fishing on listed Coho.........
__________________
"Rivers and the inhabitants of the watery elements are made for wise men to contemplate and for fools to pass without consideration."- Izaak Walton

Team Fair Chase.
Team Fair Exit.
Team don't feed the trolls.
Rank Amateur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 12:32 PM   #8
SalmonidSlayer
Steelhead
 
SalmonidSlayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchinCoho View Post
I'm probably going to be very unpopular for this- We should close Chinook fishing for 5 years in AK, WA, OR and CA. A million reasons to do it, not a single reason not to.... in my opinion.
I agree, it doesn't seem like things are going to get any better the way they are going now. It would be a small sacrifice if it were to help get the fish back on track.
SalmonidSlayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 03:14 PM   #9
Chris Nordling
 
Chris Nordling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Jennings Lodge
Posts: 3,159
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchinCoho View Post
I'm probably going to be very unpopular for this- We should close Chinook fishing for 5 years in AK, WA, OR and CA. A million reasons to do it, not a single reason not to.... in my opinion.
The Canadian commercial fleet would love that !
__________________
Now Booking--

Winter Steelhead
Clackamas ,Sandy, and Coast
Spring Chinook
Buoy 10
Sturgeon
(503) 866-0971
http://www.CatchSomeFish.Net
Fisherman's Marine&Outdoor Pro Staff
ClackaCraft Drift Boats Pro Staff

Twitter: @
CNordlingfishin
Facebook:http://tinyurl.com/CNguidefanpage


Chris Nordling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 03:26 PM   #10
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Nordling View Post
The Canadian commercial fleet would love that !
There will never be a closure of the commercial harvest of chinook on the Pacific Coast of Canada and the United States of Extinction until the chinook themselves disappear. Then, there will be a de facto closure, not a de jure closure, that is a closure by fact, rather than one by law. The politicians and managers of both Canada and the United States of Extinction share the blame equally. Meanwhile, in Oregon, the coastal fall chinook stocks are in really bad shape. According to ODFW and the commercial fleet, this is all Mother Nature's fault.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 03:26 PM   #11
jds10
Steelhead
 
jds10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 206
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchinCoho View Post
I'm probably going to be very unpopular for this- We should close Chinook fishing for 5 years in AK, WA, OR and CA. A million reasons to do it, not a single reason not to.... in my opinion.
It absolutely has to happen. I posted about this a while back and it was fairly unpopular among a lot of very selfish people here.
jds10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 03:49 PM   #12
Splash
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver USA
Posts: 3,940
Default

Some selfish, most probably informed. They set a harvest number and harvest up to that number. Any fish not caught by one group gets rolled into another. If Oregon decides to forego a season those fish roll back into other fisheries.

Apologies for the semi inept post but hopefully people get the idea.
__________________
Commercial friendly. Gillnet intolerant.
Splash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 04:22 PM   #13
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash View Post
Some selfish, most probably informed. They set a harvest number and harvest up to that number. Any fish not caught by one group gets rolled into another. If Oregon decides to forego a season those fish roll back into other fisheries.

Apologies for the semi inept post but hopefully people get the idea.
I'm not sure what you meant. Let's say that the commercial harvest of chinook is set at zero and there is a season for sport fishers both in the ocean and in river which sets the allowable take at some small numbers. Or let's say there is no harvest allowed for either commercial or sport?

How does what you said apply to either situation? For the sake of your response, please assume that these hypotheticals will be in place from California through Alaska, even though, as we all know, the PFMC would never stop the commercial harvest of chinook salmon, nor would the Canadians. Again, as we all know, both the PFMC and the Canadians would love to take the sport fishers out of the equation and eliminate them as a group that harvests chinook salmon.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-14-2019 at 07:55 PM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 06:00 PM   #14
garyk
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: On the BIG River, Columbia Co.
Posts: 15,649
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatchinCoho View Post
I'm probably going to be very unpopular for this- We should close Chinook fishing for 5 years in AK, WA, OR and CA. A million reasons to do it, not a single reason not to.... in my opinion.

While I appreciate the willingness to forego and sacrifice, ceasing sport fishing would do nothing to resolve the factors that are driving our salmon stocks down to new low.

While you're willing to sacrifice, Tillamook County commissioner Yamamoto is lobbying against salmon habitat protections on State lands.
__________________
Welcome, to the days you've made.
IFisher 234

"Our best hatcheries, our most resilient, efficient and lasting hatcheries are in fact healthy rivers."

"Keep Public Lands Public - Now and Forever"
garyk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 06:11 PM   #15
Coastalhounddog
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wet some were
Posts: 324
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyk View Post

While you're willing to sacrifice, Tillamook County commissioner Yamamoto is lobbying against salmon habitat protections on State lands.

Please expand upon this to help people better understand.
I know you made a short comment prior but any more detailed information
would be very helpful to many IMO.
Thanks
Tracy
Coastalhounddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 07:07 PM   #16
garyk
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: On the BIG River, Columbia Co.
Posts: 15,649
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coastalhounddog View Post
Please expand upon this to help people better understand.
I know you made a short comment prior but any more detailed information
would be very helpful to many IMO.
Thanks
Tracy

Thank you for the interest. It's all online. A simple search will show his testimony/quote.


This guy is just last in a long line of Tillamook politicians who carry the timber industry's water.
__________________
Welcome, to the days you've made.
IFisher 234

"Our best hatcheries, our most resilient, efficient and lasting hatcheries are in fact healthy rivers."

"Keep Public Lands Public - Now and Forever"
garyk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2019, 08:00 PM   #17
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coastalhounddog View Post
Please expand upon this to help people better understand.
I know you made a short comment prior but any more detailed information
would be very helpful to many IMO.
Thanks
Tracy

The Oregon Department of Forestry released its forest plan for future management of Oregon forest lands, which included a number of plots set aside for conservation purposes. Of course, those purposes included preserving habitat for salmon. The group of Oregon counties opposed the plan and the head of the group, Yamamoto, the Tillamook county commissioner said that his group objected to the forestry plan because the conservation set asides were too large. He said before the counties would approve the plan, the ODF would have to cut back on the size of those conservation set asides so the counties would get more money from the additional trees cut.

It is just more bs from Oregon politicians to hammer the salmon into extinction and fill up the pockets of the timber industry and preserve the status quo which is to demolish salmon and salmon habitat in order to enrich the timber barons and their entourage. Salmon always lose in this immoral, pitiful state called Oregon. But, it is just one of the 50 United States of Extinction.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-14-2019 at 10:12 PM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 06:51 AM   #18
R Bob
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Yreka/Neotsu
Posts: 481
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Having attended many PFMC meetings, the annual regulation setting process involving all of the stakeholders is complicated but for the most part fair to recreational anglers. Commercial seasons have absolutely been closed or restricted all along the west coast over the past 20 years to protect various stocks. I have never had the sense that the PFMC favored commercial over recreational fisheries. I'm not sure how the North Pacific Fishery Management Council (managing Alaska stocks) is - maybe they are more pro commercial. My take is the Canadians can be difficult to deal with when it comes to commercial fisheries.
R Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2019, 07:04 AM   #19
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
Having attended many PFMC meetings, the annual regulation setting process involving all of the stakeholders is complicated but for the most part fair to recreational anglers. Commercial seasons have absolutely been closed or restricted all along the west coast over the past 20 years to protect various stocks. I have never had the sense that the PFMC favored commercial over recreational fisheries. I'm not sure how the North Pacific Fishery Management Council (managing Alaska stocks) is - maybe they are more pro commercial. My take is the Canadians can be difficult to deal with when it comes to commercial fisheries.
So, does having commercial harvest from Alaska through Oregon of Oregon chinook play any role in having so few returning chinook to the north coast Oregon rivers that the sport season must be stopped?
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 06:10 AM   #20
R Bob
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Yreka/Neotsu
Posts: 481
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

My understanding is that the primary reason that the sport season was stopped was due to results of extreme drought (disease, warm water temps).

The ocean abundance models which are used to manage the various stocks on the West Coast have struggled with handling the poor ocean conditions (AKA red blob). These models are constantly being tweeked in an effort to improve their performance. That being said, they are just mathematical models and as a former colleague from the USFWS used to like to say "all models are flawed, some models are useful". It's a tough business trying to manage any species that spends all or part of its life cycle in the ocean and especially challenging with salmon.

There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 individual Chinook stocks (not counting the Columbia River/Tribs) that migrate north from the Oregon Coast, mixing with the 100's of other West Coast/Canadian/Alaskan stocks. I'm not familiar with how the PFMC interacts with the Pacific Salmon Commission when it comes to managing the portion of Oregon Coast stocks that spend time outside US waters. I did read there have been coordination issues in the past and the recent improvements to the Treaty are supposed to address these issues.

Last edited by R Bob; 12-16-2019 at 06:11 AM. Reason: formatting
R Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 08:45 AM   #21
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
My understanding is that the primary reason that the sport season was stopped was due to results of extreme drought (disease, warm water temps).

The ocean abundance models which are used to manage the various stocks on the West Coast have struggled with handling the poor ocean conditions (AKA red blob). These models are constantly being tweeked in an effort to improve their performance. That being said, they are just mathematical models and as a former colleague from the USFWS used to like to say "all models are flawed, some models are useful". It's a tough business trying to manage any species that spends all or part of its life cycle in the ocean and especially challenging with salmon.

There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 individual Chinook stocks (not counting the Columbia River/Tribs) that migrate north from the Oregon Coast, mixing with the 100's of other West Coast/Canadian/Alaskan stocks. I'm not familiar with how the PFMC interacts with the Pacific Salmon Commission when it comes to managing the portion of Oregon Coast stocks that spend time outside US waters. I did read there have been coordination issues in the past and the recent improvements to the Treaty are supposed to address these issues.
You didn't really answer my question, but the information you posted has value. Here is a quote from the ODFW news release in which the closure all north coast oregon rivers for chinook angling was publicized:

"The closure is necessary to protect remaining fall Chinook adults to allow them to reach spawning grounds, according to Robert Bradley, district fish biologist for ODFW’s North Coast Watershed District. “The observed pre-spawn mortality is on top of a reduced run of fall Chinook this year,” said Bradley. “We need to protect the remaining spawners to help provide for future runs of fall Chinook on the North Coast.”

I highlighted the relevant part of the release for the purposes of our discussion. There is no doubt that there is a parasite in those rivers that is killing chinook. There is also no doubt that on top of the 2018 reduced run of fall chinook to those rivers, 2019 has seen further reduction in the number of fall chinook returning to those rivers.

So, I will pose this question to you:

So, does the commercial harvest of chinook salmon from Alaska through Oregon of north coast Oregon chinook play any role in the reduction of the numbers of returning chinook to the north coast Oregon rivers?

While your at it, you might want to try answering another question:

In view of the huge numbers of Oregon chinook that are harvested comercially in Alaska and BC and the current die-off of Oregon chinook in north coast rivers on top of poor returns of those same chinook, do you think there should be commercial harvest next year of chinook in the salt water from the Aleutians to Oregon?

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-16-2019 at 09:10 AM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 09:58 AM   #22
loper
King Salmon
 
loper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 6,202
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksalmon View Post
...as we all know...
ah; the royal we again
__________________
OHA Capitol Chapter (Life Member)
RMEF Life Member, OR-FNAWS Life Member, Pheasants Forever, Inland Northwest Wildlife Council, NW Predator Hunters Association, OBH, Oregon Shed Hunters, BHA
loper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 01:38 PM   #23
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by loper View Post
ah; the royal we again
Hey, man, how is the pheasant hunting going? Have they legalized the commercial harvest of all those pheasants you love? Or are you still enjoying hunting them without worrying about some commercial harvester coming along and ruining your pheasant season?
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 05:44 PM   #24
R Bob
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Yreka/Neotsu
Posts: 481
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Yes - commercial harvest plays a role in the number of returning Chinook to north coast Oregon rivers. So does recreation harvest, so do ling cod, so do orca, so does abundance of copepods and so does ocean conditions. I understand where you are going with this discussion. If I were playing head guy in the Salmon Harvest Head-Shed - I would restrict both commercial and ocean recreational harvest opportunities proportionally to insure good spawner escapement to Oregon North Coast rivers.

Since I'm not...I can't really say for sure what's going to happen. My experience has been with recreational harvest management of California and Southern Oregon stocks - those stocks remain primarily off California and Oregon coasts - so way less complicated. For all West Coast stocks, the "harvestable surplus" is determined for each stock or cluster of stocks. That number is plugged into harvst models which are used for crafting seasons for recreational and commercial fisheries. There's a certain percentage extracted from the ocean recreational harvest which is maintained for in-river harvest. It's nowhere near an exact science.

Last edited by R Bob; 12-16-2019 at 05:45 PM. Reason: formatting
R Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2019, 09:07 PM   #25
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
Yes - commercial harvest plays a role in the number of returning Chinook to north coast Oregon rivers. So does recreation harvest, so do ling cod, so do orca, so does abundance of copepods and so does ocean conditions. I understand where you are going with this discussion. If I were playing head guy in the Salmon Harvest Head-Shed - I would restrict both commercial and ocean recreational harvest opportunities proportionally to insure good spawner escapement to Oregon North Coast rivers.

Since I'm not...I can't really say for sure what's going to happen. My experience has been with recreational harvest management of California and Southern Oregon stocks - those stocks remain primarily off California and Oregon coasts - so way less complicated. For all West Coast stocks, the "harvestable surplus" is determined for each stock or cluster of stocks. That number is plugged into harvst models which are used for crafting seasons for recreational and commercial fisheries. There's a certain percentage extracted from the ocean recreational harvest which is maintained for in-river harvest. It's nowhere near an exact science.

It certainly is not an exact science. But, when both the the ODFW and the PFMC in their 2019 abundance forecasts said that there would be poor returns to the North Coast Oregon streams and then commercial seasons were set with quotas about where they were for 2018 when the returns were also poor, it seems like a plan to get the last few chinook into the commercial coffers. I know you disagree, but it looks that way to me.

Instead of conservation, there is commercial harvest. Instead of preserving chinook to spawn in Oregon rivers, they are commercially harvested in Alaska to be sold all over the world. If you like that situation, so be it. I don't.

The main difference between myself and those of you who want chinook commercially harvested is that I do not believe in the commodification of chinook anymore. The days of abundant chinook such that the commercial harvest did not threaten their very existence are over. But, the vast of majority of people on this website and in "society" want that commodification to continue. I believe that the chinook should be listed as a game fish, preserved for sport fishers, much like ducks and geese are preserved for sport hunters. If you think the chinook should be treated as a commodity to be exchanged for dollars, I guess that is your right to think that. We simply disagree. I guess I have a stronger affiinity for the sport side of the equation. But, that is just my preference, which is meaningless in the scheme of things in this country where the dollar counts the most.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-16-2019 at 09:34 PM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 05:25 AM   #26
R Bob
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Yreka/Neotsu
Posts: 481
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Actually, I don't entirely disagree with you about commercial harvest of Chinook. Waterfowl were once harvested commercially until their populations plummeted and it eventually stopped. Ditto for deer and elk.

Just to clear up my background - my professional career was in wetlands and aquatic habitat management. After retirement, I represented a group of Northern California coastal sport anglers in the salmon regulation setting process (essentially a lobbyist). I attended PFMC and salmon related state meetings so I am very familiar with the culture (from my profession) and the process.

I have not at all followed the plight of the North Coast Oregon Chinook (until this fall) - and was only passing on my experience with how California and Southern Oregon stocks are managed. It's not an exact science and the stock abundance forecast has been way off up and down the coast. Chetco and Winchuck Rivers come to mind. Those fish were heavily fished commercially in 2018 which forced a complete closure for the terminal fisheries in 2019.

During my career, I worked with a large group of cattle ranchers (aka water users) that were legally extracting water out of streams that supported salmon and steelhead. They advocated for the closure of commercial harvest of Chinook - their reasoning was so that they were under the "pressure" to maintain adequate aquatic habitat for fish. My point is that while commercial harvest probably is impacting salmon populations, I suspect that stopping it alone will not recover Oregon coastal stocks. The private forest practice regulations in Oregon appear to be quite archaic.
R Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 06:13 AM   #27
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
Actually, I don't entirely disagree with you about commercial harvest of Chinook. Waterfowl were once harvested commercially until their populations plummeted and it eventually stopped. Ditto for deer and elk.

Just to clear up my background - my professional career was in wetlands and aquatic habitat management. After retirement, I represented a group of Northern California coastal sport anglers in the salmon regulation setting process (essentially a lobbyist). I attended PFMC and salmon related state meetings so I am very familiar with the culture (from my profession) and the process.

I have not at all followed the plight of the North Coast Oregon Chinook (until this fall) - and was only passing on my experience with how California and Southern Oregon stocks are managed. It's not an exact science and the stock abundance forecast has been way off up and down the coast. Chetco and Winchuck Rivers come to mind. Those fish were heavily fished commercially in 2018 which forced a complete closure for the terminal fisheries in 2019.

During my career, I worked with a large group of cattle ranchers (aka water users) that were legally extracting water out of streams that supported salmon and steelhead. They advocated for the closure of commercial harvest of Chinook - their reasoning was so that they were under the "pressure" to maintain adequate aquatic habitat for fish. My point is that while commercial harvest probably is impacting salmon populations, I suspect that stopping it alone will not recover Oregon coastal stocks. The private forest practice regulations in Oregon appear to be quite archaic.
Thanks for your response. By the way, as to your first paragraph about the termination of the commercial exploitation of ducks and geese, you are the third person on this website to recognize that occurred. I like your story about the cattle ranchers as it simply confirms my belief that salmon are a thorn in the side of many humans and therefore many of the latter are on a mission to make salmon go extinct as it would make their businesses more profitable and easier to run. Salmon are a menace.

As for Oregon forest practices, I have read many times that this immoral state's forest practices are the worst on the Pacific coast. Make a buck and kill a salmon is the state motto. It may be that stopping the commercial harvest of Oregon coastal stocks will not recover them. However, to me, since there are so few salmon returning to spawn every extra one that can make it back instead of being shipped off to feed some rich diners is worth a try. Habitat protection would also be needed.

By the way, I do not object to commercial harvest of salmon as with the sockeye runs of Bristol Bay. Where salmon are so plentiful that they are able to withstand commercial harvest, it is fine with me if that occurs. However, when their numbers are so small and rivers must be shut down to sport fishing because of a lack of spawners, I say it is time to stop the commercial slaughter. If the runs ever again achieve abundance, then, perhaps, commercial harvest can be resumed. But, people learned to live without commercially killed ducks and geese and they can learn to get by on sockeye and farmed Atlantics. They don't need to eat commercially killed chinook.

In the final analysis, though, I am a realist. None of these things will occur to help chinook salmon. They are headed for extinction at the hands of the humans they fed for so many centuries. It is sad to me that humans treat the salmon with so much disrespect and disdain. The Oregon counties rejection of the management plan of the Oregon Department of Forestry because it contained too much land set aside for the protection of fish and wildlife is all the proof I need of how disgusting humans are when it comes to salmon.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-17-2019 at 07:55 AM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2019, 08:31 AM   #28
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
Yes - commercial harvest plays a role in the number of returning Chinook to north coast Oregon rivers. So does recreation harvest, so do ling cod, so do orca, so does abundance of copepods and so does ocean conditions. I understand where you are going with this discussion. If I were playing head guy in the Salmon Harvest Head-Shed - I would restrict both commercial and ocean recreational harvest opportunities proportionally to insure good spawner escapement to Oregon North Coast rivers.

Since I'm not...I can't really say for sure what's going to happen. My experience has been with recreational harvest management of California and Southern Oregon stocks - those stocks remain primarily off California and Oregon coasts - so way less complicated. For all West Coast stocks, the "harvestable surplus" is determined for each stock or cluster of stocks. That number is plugged into harvst models which are used for crafting seasons for recreational and commercial fisheries. There's a certain percentage extracted from the ocean recreational harvest which is maintained for in-river harvest. It's nowhere near an exact science.
Given your familiarity with California/Southern Oregon stocks, let me pick your brain on the Chetco River. To me, without having studied the issue, the presence of all National Forest land in the upper watershed of the Chetco (basically all above Ice Box, or the First Bridge over the river and Loeb State Park for a couple of miles below that), the habitat should be in pretty good shape. Yet, we have seen a steady decline in the limits allowed to sport fishers of chinook on that river. (This is not a whine for sport fishers, it is merely the use of their limits as an indicator of the health of the Chetco chinook stocks). It used to be 2 a day, wild or hatchery and 20 per year. Now, it is been 1 wild per day and 2 per year. That is a sign that the run is in very bad shape.

To me, that says that the Chetco chinook stocks are in pretty bad shape. Why do you think that is? Or, do you disagree and believe they are healthy, thriving and abundant? I think they are in a pitiful state. What do you think about this river system and its fall chinook?

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-18-2019 at 07:01 AM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 06:20 AM   #29
R Bob
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Yreka/Neotsu
Posts: 481
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

You are correct that the Chetco River watershed is relatively healthy - especially when compared to others along the Oregon Coast. Harvest stats suggest that the Chetco has had a relatively stable return until it began to slip in 2017. Given the sometimes extreme cyclic nature of salmon populations - I think it's a tad premature to suggest that the Chetco stock is tanking. Have returns been weak these past few years? Absolutely...

The terminal sport and commercial ocean bubble fishery has hammered staging fish in recent years and was finally closed for the 2019 season. The hatchery program (using wild fish) which targets the lower river/estuary fishery has cut stocking by 15% (currently 170,000 smolts). Hatchery fish have typically made up about half of the fish caught in the estuary. Finally, the 170,000 acre Chetco Bar Fire burned almost entirely within the watershed back in 2017. While fire is not necessarily a bad thing, this one was both unusually large and quite hot - it'll take awhile for the watershed to recover from this event.

ODFW did the right thing to restrict harvest this year. If the stock doesn't rebound in the next few years, then that would be cause for concern.

Last edited by R Bob; 12-18-2019 at 06:38 AM. Reason: formatting
R Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2019, 07:13 AM   #30
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bob View Post
You are correct that the Chetco River watershed is relatively healthy - especially when compared to others along the Oregon Coast. Harvest stats suggest that the Chetco has had a relatively stable return until it began to slip in 2017. Given the sometimes extreme cyclic nature of salmon populations - I think it's a tad premature to suggest that the Chetco stock is tanking. Have returns been weak these past few years? Absolutely...

The terminal sport and commercial ocean bubble fishery has hammered staging fish in recent years and was finally closed for the 2019 season. The hatchery program (using wild fish) which targets the lower river/estuary fishery has cut stocking by 15% (currently 170,000 smolts). Hatchery fish have typically made up about half of the fish caught in the estuary. Finally, the 170,000 acre Chetco Bar Fire burned almost entirely within the watershed back in 2017. While fire is not necessarily a bad thing, this one was both unusually large and quite hot - it'll take awhile for the watershed to recover from this event.

ODFW did the right thing to restrict harvest this year. If the stock doesn't rebound in the next few years, then that would be cause for concern.
In the meantime, the commercial harvest in the Klamath Zone and from Humbug Mtn to the OR/CA border continues merely to supply people who can afford the outrageous prices with chinook at the expense of the species' health. Why can't they eat sockeye and farmed Atlantics instead? Why continue to commercially kill the chinook, a species that is in bad shape throughout its range? Makes no sense to me, but I don't place the same value on making a buck off a species that is not abundant that the rest of the world does.

You said that if the Chetco stock does not rebound in the next few years, it would be cause for concern. What would the "managers" do then? Close the sport seasons and give some of their quota to the commercials to reduce the overall take from the prior year and call it a victory for chinook? What would be wrong with closing the commercial seasons now; and then, if the stocks rebound in the next few years, reopening them?

As you mentioned earlier, the commercial killing of ducks and geese was stopped 100 years ago. Why have societal mores deteriorated in that time period to still sanction the commercial killing of the chinook salmon? Because ducks and geese are cuter than chinook? Because ducks quack and chinook don't make any detectable noise? Because ducks are visible to the casual observer, while chinook exist in secrecy beneath the waves and rapids? Why does it always come down to having the last few fish around before society takes any action to protect them? Why not protect them wen there are still enough to produce a real rebound, if there is ever again a real up time in the cycle? It seems with all the problems in the ocean, things are different this time and call for different approaches to preserving and enhancing the chinook salmon. But, that would be way too proactive and conservation oriented for this "we want it all" society which is the United States of Extinction.

Last edited by jacksalmon; 12-18-2019 at 10:09 AM.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2019, 09:07 AM   #31
jacksalmon
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: portland
Posts: 3,826
Default Re: North Coast closed to Chinook fishing

First, there is not enough water to get the chinook upstream; then they get eaten alive by parasites and now, whatever nests they built will get flooded out. Those poor chinook just can't catch a break.
jacksalmon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Cast to



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:11 PM.

Terms of Service
 
Page generated in 0.36724 seconds with 44 queries