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Old 11-05-2019, 10:19 AM   #1
Steel4Sam
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Default Cattle Grazing Observations

Listen,
I am all for multiple use on our NF but I wanted to share some interesting observations. Where we hunt here in Oregon the national forest is grazed hard. Generally speaking we find elk where the cattle have not yet been, once it's been grazed its rare to find elk in an area for more than a day. Each year the cattle are on the FS far beyond their allotted time (until sept. 15th) in fact we have observed cattle on the FS in december. I understand that ranchers cant always bring out all of their cows and sometimes are forced to leave a handful, my problem is that it appears that a couple ranchers don't even start collecting their cattle until October.

I recently hunted USNF ground in Idaho, we hunted along side some USFS employees from the region who shared that cattle in their area are only allowed to graze on BLM and state land. There was an obvious increase in available feed and with that a much greater population of elk.

I realize that to some degree I am comparing apples to oranges but it certainly feels like our elk can't catch a break between cattle, predators and poaching. The feed is grazed off on USFS so they end up on winter range early (private land in the case that I am referring to) then get shot up on depredation hunts.

Where is our happy medium? There is plenty that needs to be done but predators is not the only contributing factor.

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Old 11-05-2019, 02:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Listen,
I am all for multiple use on our NF but I wanted to share some interesting observations. Where we hunt here in Oregon the national forest is grazed hard. Generally speaking we find elk where the cattle have not yet been, once it's been grazed its rare to find elk in an area for more than a day. Each year the cattle are on the FS far beyond their allotted time (until sept. 15th) in fact we have observed cattle on the FS in december. I understand that ranchers cant always bring out all of their cows and sometimes are forced to leave a handful, my problem is that it appears that a couple ranchers don't even start collecting their cattle until October.

I recently hunted USNF ground in Idaho, we hunted along side some USFS employees from the region who shared that cattle in their area are only allowed to graze on BLM and state land. There was an obvious increase in available feed and with that a much greater population of elk.

I realize that to some degree I am comparing apples to oranges but it certainly feels like our elk can't catch a break between cattle, predators and poaching. The feed is grazed off on USFS so they end up on winter range early (private land in the case that I am referring to) then get shot up on depredation hunts.

Where is our happy medium? There is plenty that needs to be done but predators is not the only contributing factor.
I just got back from Idaho and I was hunting National Forest up above Elk City, and yes they do in fact allow grazing. I would be interested to hear where you were.

I'm not trying to defend or oppose your position, but just curious why the difference.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Where is our happy medium?

Forget medium. If you want to fix the problem pronto, there are two possible solutions that I can think of.



First, gov't should know who owns the cows, who has grazing rights, so we could simply fine them substantially like $100 / day / critter after the grazing period ends.


Second, we could simply say that any cattle on public ground w/o a valid grazing permit for that time are forfeit and eligible for anyone with a hunting license and a rifle to kill and take home to eat at no charge.


The fact o' the matter is you cannot play nice and get results with people who are making money from being not-nice, you have to kick them in the wallet, hard, to get their attention.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Forget medium. If you want to fix the problem pronto, there are two possible solutions that I can think of.



First, gov't should know who owns the cows, who has grazing rights, so we could simply fine them substantially like $100 / day / critter after the grazing period ends.


Second, we could simply say that any cattle on public ground w/o a valid grazing permit for that time are forfeit and eligible for anyone with a hunting license and a rifle to kill and take home to eat at no charge.


The fact o' the matter is you cannot play nice and get results with people who are making money from being not-nice, you have to kick them in the wallet, hard, to get their attention.
Not all forest service allotments end 9/15.

We've killed elk within a couple hundred yards of active cattle grazing.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

The area I archery hunted didn't seem to have that issue. What I did notice is the herd didn't move in until the cattle where removed from the area. Once that happened I saw that herd for the last 4 days of the season. I did get into small groups of elk but the big one didn't show up until the day after the cattle were moved out which was the 18th.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

Fwiw, unless you are there for a week or two in one spot, don’t be so sure Elk aren’t using the area. Our local herd seems to be on a seven day pattern most of the time. That is, 6 days you won’t see them and on the 7th a hundred or more may be close by. YMMV.
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I believe some Some federal grazing permits go to October 15th. Then there are the non fenced or very poorly fenced BLM/USFS parcels inside large ranches or Timber company grazing leases. That are in effect 365day grazing,
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by baltz526 View Post
I believe some Some federal grazing permits go to October 15th. Then there are the non fenced or very poorly fenced BLM/USFS parcels inside large ranches or Timber company grazing leases. That are in effect 365day grazing,
This is correct, not all areas close on Sept. 15th, however the area I am referring to has a Sept 15th closure.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I have asked OSP if it is ok to start harvesting cattle after their allotment date is over......seems kinda fair to me. He said no their private property. Cows were in areas a month past due. This has happened yearly. Maybe I should start calling them.

Agreed ranchers need to be fined, or some sort of allotment shortening.

This year the USFS allotments were HAMMERED in my area, pretty amazed at beautiful private property land adjacent to USFS land.
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Last edited by Justin's Fly; 11-05-2019 at 08:50 PM. Reason: missed a point
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

Just two fairly simple question.

Allotments / turn-outs have been around for decades even back in the good ol days. Why are they just now an issue?

Could we as hunters be grasping at straws as to why our success is not what we want it to be?
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Originally Posted by SquarePeg View Post
Forget medium. If you want to fix the problem pronto, there are two possible solutions that I can think of.



First, gov't should know who owns the cows, who has grazing rights, so we could simply fine them substantially like $100 / day / critter after the grazing period ends.


Second, we could simply say that any cattle on public ground w/o a valid grazing permit for that time are forfeit and eligible for anyone with a hunting license and a rifle to kill and take home to eat at no charge.


The fact o' the matter is you cannot play nice and get results with people who are making money from being not-nice, you have to kick them in the wallet, hard, to get their attention.
That approach didn't work out so well with the Bundy's
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:41 PM   #12
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[QUOTE=wildwood;16161099]Just two fairly simple question.

Allotments / turn-outs have been around for decades even back in the good ol days. Why are they just now an issue?

Could we as hunters be grasping at straws as to why our success is not what we want it to be?[/QUOTE

Based on my observations they have always been an issue. Frankly I’m tired of seeing our public ground grazed to dirt and seeing fellas profit off of it. One reason people don’t say anything is it’s “taboo” to criticize farmers/ranchers. Folks make it sound like they sacrifice so much to provide food to the masses. Such BS. They farm/ranch because they want to, our govt provides subsidies to ensure their market will always be there. We all make choices for what we want, ranching is a tough 7 day a week gig...don’t want it, don’t do it.

Your other question is not applicable, my success rate is not the issue, I’m pleased with it. The issue is a declining mule deer population, elk under management objectives and no end in site.
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquarePeg View Post
Forget medium. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.ifish.net/board/images/smilies/smile1.gif[/IMG] If you want to fix the problem pronto, there are two possible solutions that I can think of.



First, gov't should know who owns the cows, who has grazing rights, so we could simply fine them substantially like $100 / day / critter after the grazing period ends.


Second, we could simply say that any cattle on public ground w/o a valid grazing permit for that time are forfeit and eligible for anyone with a hunting license and a rifle to kill and take home to eat at no charge.


The fact o' the matter is you cannot play nice and get results with people who are making money from being not-nice, you have to kick them in the wallet, hard, to get their attention.
Not all forest service allotments end 9/15.

We've killed elk within a couple hundred yards of active cattle grazing.
We also kill elk near cattle grazing. That doesn’t subjugate the issue.
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I run lots of trail cameras year round. I will have elk everyday in the spring till beef cows are turned out into the allotments. It usually takes 2 weeks after the cows are out for them to show back up. This happens every year in multiple locations. Beef cows 100% affect the elk in the areas I hunt. The years the allotments are rested the elk never leave. That being said i have seen on private ground hundreds of elk grazing with beef cows. Not sure the difference.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

Hard to see how the cattle would not be part of the discussion about what is going on with our deer and elk populations.

Are there real numbers one can get on the amount of cattle using public land every year...that might be an eye opener.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

On the east end of the ochoco unit, the changes in grazing practices have improved things, certainly not perfect, but better. My grandfather was actually the range rider for the wolf creek cattlemens association in the late 50's, and the number of cattle was on the range was far higher than it is today. I can't remember what the dates of grazing were back then, so that could be a negative change. Pastures were not rotated, water sources were not protected (still too many that aren't, but it is better), and the overall condition of the summer range was far worse than it is today. There were far more deer in the late 60's 7 or 8 times as many, in fact, but far less elk, although elk have been in decline the last 7-8 years.

I have read the proposed grazing allotment plan for our area to take effect in 2021, and there are a lot of improvements. Rotations would be tightened, and every pasture would be rested at least once every three years. Substantial year round road closures would also be implemented, to protect deer and elk calving/fawning habitat and winter range. It is the most wildlife friendly forest plan I have ever seen in 15 years of monitoring them on the Paulina Ranger District.

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Old 11-06-2019, 08:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Just two fairly simple question.

Allotments / turn-outs have been around for decades even back in the good ol days. Why are they just now an issue?

Could we as hunters be grasping at straws as to why our success is not what we want it to be?

I think they have always been an issue as well. To me it is pretty easy to think about..............were there thousands of cows naturally on the forest before man? Huh............. well if not maybe we should try and make sure at the very least they leave when they are required to.


I don't hunt the areas that I am mentioning..........although see the impacts to riparian areas.
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:40 AM   #18
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I have asked OSP if it is ok to start harvesting cattle after their allotment date is over......seems kinda fair to me. He said no their private property. Cows were in areas a month past due. This has happened yearly. Maybe I should start calling them.

Agreed ranchers need to be fined, or some sort of allotment shortening.

This year the USFS allotments were HAMMERED in my area, pretty amazed at beautiful private property land adjacent to USFS land.

I thought property left on blm/usfs was considered abandoned after 2 weeks.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I've used this term in business with regards to financial aspects but also applies here. "When a bucket has a bunch of holes in it but keeps getting filled up with water nobody cares, however when someone turns off the spigot everyone starts to pay a lot more attention to plugging holes before the bucket runs out of water."

In this case, nobody talks about cattle or any other detrimental issue that affect deer/elk when populations are high. It's when we start to notice population declines in a dramatic fashion we start to look at each and every reason more carefully. I don't think anyone is saying cattle are the sole reason, but they're definitely a hole in the bucket.

Historically I used to hunt a region in Silvies that held a lot of deer. In the last 10 years I noticed a significant increase in cattle. What it did was drain every water hole that used to have water throughout the summer to where the ranchers are now trucking in water, the springs are destroyed, and grass is munched down to bare earth. The result was I couldn't find a single doe in 3 days of hunting anywhere in a 10 mile radius that used to be filled with deer. I'm not saying they all died, but it's simple they were displaced. No food/water, the critters need to move to where it is.

Normally that's where cattle are not....elk seem to have a better way of dealing with cattle, maybe that's a size thing but deer are definitely more skiddish around them. I think everything that causes a detriment needs to be reviewed and enforced to help buck the current trend.

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I would think cattle left out after the deadline would be considered abandoned property.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:14 AM   #21
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I may be offbase here, but deer absolutely don't compete with cows for food. And I'm not sure Elk do either.
I've watched an area recover from overgrazing, and Elk populations didn't increase.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

To the OP or others agreeing with him/her; I'm curious now. Do you live in cattle country, or in the middle of a city? There is reasoning behind my question. While I understand you position I do not agree with it.

I live in the Willamette Valley and have for nearly 25 years but grew up in cattle country in a very small town (150 people) in N. CA. My parents own a fairly good size cow/calf operation, and my brother and I are 5th generation ranchers. We do not have turn-outs, but I know several neighbors that do. And I would like to think I'm fairly well versed in the subject.

It seems to me that folks like to develop these feelings based on their 2 or 3 weeks in the woods each year. Mostly because they believe its infringing on their own purposes, in the OP case elk hunting. However nearlyball are not there year around, nor are they educated on the matter.

Most never take the time to see what it takes to keep a ranch or farm alive especially a small family owned operation. Yes farmers do get subsidies of various kinds, but so do other business lines. For example, I work in the telecom sector now; traditional phone companies every year get millions of dollars just here in Oregon to keep their dying model alive. So if part of the argument is that farmers / ranchers shouldn't get subsidies then neither should any other industries; but be careful what you wish for because you would be surprised how deep this subsidies go and provide financial assistance to help other economic concerns.

But back to my point of your location, or the location of anyone really. This one little fact many times sets ones reality. All too often we see that in cases like this were one reality or truth some how is more important than someone else's reality or truth. If you dont think there are different perspectives based on your location, may be you should go sit down and talk with one of the ranchers that has a turn-out, or one of their neighbors, or employees. Ask how these turn-outs affect his or her business, their family, the hired men, the community.
Do you think towns like Pasiley, Frenchglen. Condon, or Lexington would exist if not for farms/ranches. Those places have far reaching affects on the rest of Oregon's economy. I believe farming and ranching is the largest business sector in Oregon. Can you imagine what would happen to Oregon's economy if these farms and ranches went away. Not sure any of us want to experience that impact. So before you villa vie ranchers/farmers you may want to step back and gain a little perspective.

But to your original point. Turn-outs are not the cause of management objectives being met. The fact is we have way too predators, ODFW is giving out way too may cow and doe tags, there are too many poachers, too many roads, etc.

Turn-outs have existed for over 100 years. Earlier in this thread I commented on the good ol days. This fact is true. 40 years ago these turn-outs existed, and the numbers were great. So I ask why the difference now?

As for those making comments about shooting cows. That's ridiculous. Should I be able to shoot someone's dog running around in the forest. Kind of the same thing, you are advocating for killing ones private property. Now if the government wants to gather the animals and charge a fee to get them back, like a dog catcher, that's a different story, go for it.

Theres another post in the section from a rancher that killed a great buck, and a member here told him he wasnt a real hunter. Wow is all I can say. To most of our credits many defended the rancher and denounced the one members comments.

And now I see this thread, what is the deal with folks startung to turn their backs farmers and ranchers. I wonder how we would feel if the reverse were true. If farmers and ranchers turned their backs on us. Keep up this rhetoric folks and it will happen. Forget about knocking on doors and asking permission to hunt. It wont happen. You will start getting the door slammed in your face.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:06 AM   #23
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

IF ranchers are not allowed to run their cattle on national forest lands, how are their pastures supposed to attract wildlife during the winter, when the national forests have been grazed off, so they can get and sell their damage control tags? I personally think if they run on public land they shouldn't be able to apply for damage tags.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:31 AM   #24
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IF ranchers are not allowed to run their cattle on national forest lands, how are their pastures supposed to attract wildlife during the winter, when the national forests have been grazed off, so they can get and sell their damage control tags? I personally think if they run on public land they shouldn't be able to apply for damage tags.
I would totally agree with you, actually I would take one step further. I am not a supporter of commercializing wildlife. LOP tags should not be able to be sold period. They also should only be able to be issued to the immediate family of the rancher/farmer applying for the tags.

I forgot one part of my last post. I'm surprised that no one is talking about population numbers began to change about 5 or 6 years after we cut back our harvests on NFS and BLM forest grounds. Dramatically affecting a lot of habitat.

To the last point. I truly believe the lack of these clear cuts and thinnings are driving animals to lower wintering grounds. This has been supported by the biologists in the Heppner area.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Originally Posted by wildwood View Post
To the OP or others agreeing with him/her; I'm curious now. Do you live in cattle country, or in the middle of a city? There is reasoning behind my question. While I understand you position I do not agree with it.

I live in the Willamette Valley and have for nearly 25 years but grew up in cattle country in a very small town (150 people) in N. CA. My parents own a fairly good size cow/calf operation, and my brother and I are 5th generation ranchers. We do not have turn-outs, but I know several neighbors that do. And I would like to think I'm fairly well versed in the subject.

It seems to me that folks like to develop these feelings based on their 2 or 3 weeks in the woods each year. Mostly because they believe its infringing on their own purposes, in the OP case elk hunting. However nearlyball are not there year around, nor are they educated on the matter.

Most never take the time to see what it takes to keep a ranch or farm alive especially a small family owned operation. Yes farmers do get subsidies of various kinds, but so do other business lines. For example, I work in the telecom sector now; traditional phone companies every year get millions of dollars just here in Oregon to keep their dying model alive. So if part of the argument is that farmers / ranchers shouldn't get subsidies then neither should any other industries; but be careful what you wish for because you would be surprised how deep this subsidies go and provide financial assistance to help other economic concerns.

But back to my point of your location, or the location of anyone really. This one little fact many times sets ones reality. All too often we see that in cases like this were one reality or truth some how is more important than someone else's reality or truth. If you dont think there are different perspectives based on your location, may be you should go sit down and talk with one of the ranchers that has a turn-out, or one of their neighbors, or employees. Ask how these turn-outs affect his or her business, their family, the hired men, the community.
Do you think towns like Pasiley, Frenchglen. Condon, or Lexington would exist if not for farms/ranches. Those places have far reaching affects on the rest of Oregon's economy. I believe farming and ranching is the largest business sector in Oregon. Can you imagine what would happen to Oregon's economy if these farms and ranches went away. Not sure any of us want to experience that impact. So before you villa vie ranchers/farmers you may want to step back and gain a little perspective.

But to your original point. Turn-outs are not the cause of management objectives being met. The fact is we have way too predators, ODFW is giving out way too may cow and doe tags, there are too many poachers, too many roads, etc.

Turn-outs have existed for over 100 years. Earlier in this thread I commented on the good ol days. This fact is true. 40 years ago these turn-outs existed, and the numbers were great. So I ask why the difference now?

As for those making comments about shooting cows. That's ridiculous. Should I be able to shoot someone's dog running around in the forest. Kind of the same thing, you are advocating for killing ones private property. Now if the government wants to gather the animals and charge a fee to get them back, like a dog catcher, that's a different story, go for it.

Theres another post in the section from a rancher that killed a great buck, and a member here told him he wasnt a real hunter. Wow is all I can say. To most of our credits many defended the rancher and denounced the one members comments.

And now I see this thread, what is the deal with folks startung to turn their backs farmers and ranchers. I wonder how we would feel if the reverse were true. If farmers and ranchers turned their backs on us. Keep up this rhetoric folks and it will happen. Forget about knocking on doors and asking permission to hunt. It wont happen. You will start getting the door slammed in your face.
Your post makes way to much sense and asks to many good questions. This thread is suppose to be the annual ***** session. They would prefer you not present any information to the contrary of their complaining.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

Public land grazing and the damage done by cattle has been controversial for decades.




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Old 11-06-2019, 02:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw View Post
Not all forest service allotments end 9/15.

We've killed elk within a couple hundred yards of active cattle grazing.

I'm not intending any statement for or against grazing on USFS. I'm saying that there should be consequences for ranchers having their cattle on forest land outside of the time period they have paid for. No different than renting a piece of equipment and not returning it by the due date or staying in an apartment I've quit paying rent on. I'm just saying honor the contract you've signed or expect consequences.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:00 PM   #28
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To the OP or others agreeing with him/her; I'm curious now. Do you live in cattle country, or in the middle of a city? There is reasoning behind my question. While I understand you position I do not agree with it.

I live in the Willamette Valley and have for nearly 25 years but grew up in cattle country in a very small town (150 people) in N. CA. My parents own a fairly good size cow/calf operation, and my brother and I are 5th generation ranchers. We do not have turn-outs, but I know several neighbors that do. And I would like to think I'm fairly well versed in the subject.

It seems to me that folks like to develop these feelings based on their 2 or 3 weeks in the woods each year. Mostly because they believe its infringing on their own purposes, in the OP case elk hunting. However nearlyball are not there year around, nor are they educated on the matter.

Most never take the time to see what it takes to keep a ranch or farm alive especially a small family owned operation. Yes farmers do get subsidies of various kinds, but so do other business lines. For example, I work in the telecom sector now; traditional phone companies every year get millions of dollars just here in Oregon to keep their dying model alive. So if part of the argument is that farmers / ranchers shouldn't get subsidies then neither should any other industries; but be careful what you wish for because you would be surprised how deep this subsidies go and provide financial assistance to help other economic concerns.

But back to my point of your location, or the location of anyone really. This one little fact many times sets ones reality. All too often we see that in cases like this were one reality or truth some how is more important than someone else's reality or truth. If you dont think there are different perspectives based on your location, may be you should go sit down and talk with one of the ranchers that has a turn-out, or one of their neighbors, or employees. Ask how these turn-outs affect his or her business, their family, the hired men, the community.
Do you think towns like Pasiley, Frenchglen. Condon, or Lexington would exist if not for farms/ranches. Those places have far reaching affects on the rest of Oregon's economy. I believe farming and ranching is the largest business sector in Oregon. Can you imagine what would happen to Oregon's economy if these farms and ranches went away. Not sure any of us want to experience that impact. So before you villa vie ranchers/farmers you may want to step back and gain a little perspective.

But to your original point. Turn-outs are not the cause of management objectives being met. The fact is we have way too predators, ODFW is giving out way too may cow and doe tags, there are too many poachers, too many roads, etc.

Turn-outs have existed for over 100 years. Earlier in this thread I commented on the good ol days. This fact is true. 40 years ago these turn-outs existed, and the numbers were great. So I ask why the difference now?

As for those making comments about shooting cows. That's ridiculous. Should I be able to shoot someone's dog running around in the forest. Kind of the same thing, you are advocating for killing ones private property. Now if the government wants to gather the animals and charge a fee to get them back, like a dog catcher, that's a different story, go for it.

Theres another post in the section from a rancher that killed a great buck, and a member here told him he wasnt a real hunter. Wow is all I can say. To most of our credits many defended the rancher and denounced the one members comments.

And now I see this thread, what is the deal with folks startung to turn their backs farmers and ranchers. I wonder how we would feel if the reverse were true. If farmers and ranchers turned their backs on us. Keep up this rhetoric folks and it will happen. Forget about knocking on doors and asking permission to hunt. It wont happen. You will start getting the door slammed in your face.

Here are my responses to your questions. I am from Central Oregon, 5 generations deep. My family comes from a long line of beef and dairy operations, while most of that ended with in the last decade I still have a fair number of family and friends who run a variety of sized operations from 20 head to a couple hundred. My grandfather was a member of the Hampton Butte Grazing association for a very long time. I am well aware of what it takes to run a cattle operation and the struggles that it brings, you may have missed my point earlier, all that doesnt matter. We need to play by the rules. Cattle should be out at 9/15, they should be out. Stubble height should be X"s then it should be managed for X"s, pastures should be rotated X times, they should be rotated.
While I do not reside in the area that I speak I spend time there all year as we have family property near and spend nearly every weekend and holiday on the exact land I am speaking about. I am well informed. I am not here to claim that cattle are the only reason (see original post). I am here to say that we should not be walking on egg shells around cattle and ranchers. We should be looking at all of the issues. We need to manage predators, we need to log USFS, we need to hold ranchers accountable for the damage their property does to public lands, we need to limit doe and cow tags yadda yadda yadda.
Grazing came to my mind because of my recent experience in Idaho, a place with more predators (wolves), more hunters, less grazing and far more feed for elk. Guess what, the amount of game we saw was exceptional. This is simply anecdotal observations. It appears I am not alone. I am more concerned about folks who are unwilling to look at the impact than those who are open minded.

My solutions: Like I said, I am not opposed to cattle grazing and multiple use. I am opposed to those who abuse that. USFS Rangers need to be out inspecting these pastures, ensuring that cattle are moved, stubble height is adequate and fences are maintained. After all, they are getting a pretty damn good deal. $1.35 per AUM on the forest I am referring to.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:57 PM   #29
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Here are my responses to your questions. I am from Central Oregon, 5 generations deep. My family comes from a long line of beef and dairy operations, while most of that ended with in the last decade I still have a fair number of family and friends who run a variety of sized operations from 20 head to a couple hundred. My grandfather was a member of the Hampton Butte Grazing association for a very long time. I am well aware of what it takes to run a cattle operation and the struggles that it brings, you may have missed my point earlier, all that doesnt matter. We need to play by the rules. Cattle should be out at 9/15, they should be out. Stubble height should be X"s then it should be managed for X"s, pastures should be rotated X times, they should be rotated.
While I do not reside in the area that I speak I spend time there all year as we have family property near and spend nearly every weekend and holiday on the exact land I am speaking about. I am well informed. I am not here to claim that cattle are the only reason (see original post). I am here to say that we should not be walking on egg shells around cattle and ranchers. We should be looking at all of the issues. We need to manage predators, we need to log USFS, we need to hold ranchers accountable for the damage their property does to public lands, we need to limit doe and cow tags yadda yadda yadda.
Grazing came to my mind because of my recent experience in Idaho, a place with more predators (wolves), more hunters, less grazing and far more feed for elk. Guess what, the amount of game we saw was exceptional. This is simply anecdotal observations. It appears I am not alone. I am more concerned about folks who are unwilling to look at the impact than those who are open minded.

My solutions: Like I said, I am not opposed to cattle grazing and multiple use. I am opposed to those who abuse that. USFS Rangers need to be out inspecting these pastures, ensuring that cattle are moved, stubble height is adequate and fences are maintained. After all, they are getting a pretty damn good deal. $1.35 per AUM on the forest I am referring to.

Yeah, there good deal hasn't risen to the price it should be. Not sure how long 1.35's been around, but it seems like it should be raising with all other costs of doing business.

Plenty of issues, but each one needs to be looked at and not thrown under the rug..........agreed.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:35 PM   #30
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I may be offbase here, but deer absolutely don't compete with cows for food. And I'm not sure Elk do either.
I've watched an area recover from overgrazing, and Elk populations didn't increase.
I have a seen a herd of Beef on critical deer winter range. Eating bitter brush the main food of deer on winter range. The beef had already eaten all the grass. This chunk of public land is Oregon State property. I have watch beef eating bitter-brush in other areas when they still had plenty of grass. So yes deer absolutely compete with beef for food. Beef are winning.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:44 PM   #31
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Yeah, there good deal hasn't risen to the price it should be. Not sure how long 1.35's been around, but it seems like it should be raising with all other costs of doing business.

Plenty of issues, but each one needs to be looked at and not thrown under the rug..........agreed.

From what I can find grazing fees went up to $1.69 in 2015, but on state lands it is $4.25. Why can't the federal grazing fees go up to the $4.25 with extra going towards repairing damage done by cattle on the forests, IE rebuilding stream banks or such
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:35 PM   #32
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From what I can find grazing fees went up to $1.69 in 2015, but on state lands it is $4.25. Why can't the federal grazing fees go up to the $4.25 with extra going towards repairing damage done by cattle on the forests, IE rebuilding stream banks or such
It was .80 some cents just a few years ago...for the cow/calf pair....per month.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:30 PM   #33
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Here are my responses to your questions. I am from Central Oregon, 5 generations deep. My family comes from a long line of beef and dairy operations, while most of that ended with in the last decade I still have a fair number of family and friends who run a variety of sized operations from 20 head to a couple hundred. My grandfather was a member of the Hampton Butte Grazing association for a very long time. I am well aware of what it takes to run a cattle operation and the struggles that it brings, you may have missed my point earlier, all that doesnt matter. We need to play by the rules. Cattle should be out at 9/15, they should be out. Stubble height should be X"s then it should be managed for X"s, pastures should be rotated X times, they should be rotated.
While I do not reside in the area that I speak I spend time there all year as we have family property near and spend nearly every weekend and holiday on the exact land I am speaking about. I am well informed. I am not here to claim that cattle are the only reason (see original post). I am here to say that we should not be walking on egg shells around cattle and ranchers. We should be looking at all of the issues. We need to manage predators, we need to log USFS, we need to hold ranchers accountable for the damage their property does to public lands, we need to limit doe and cow tags yadda yadda yadda.
Grazing came to my mind because of my recent experience in Idaho, a place with more predators (wolves), more hunters, less grazing and far more feed for elk. Guess what, the amount of game we saw was exceptional. This is simply anecdotal observations. It appears I am not alone. I am more concerned about folks who are unwilling to look at the impact than those who are open minded.

My solutions: Like I said, I am not opposed to cattle grazing and multiple use. I am opposed to those who abuse that. USFS Rangers need to be out inspecting these pastures, ensuring that cattle are moved, stubble height is adequate and fences are maintained. After all, they are getting a pretty damn good deal. $1.35 per AUM on the forest I am referring to.
Well at least you seem to have some working knowledge of the subject. Have you thought to ask your friends or family that run cattle how they feel about this? It would be great to get an opinion of someone actually using a turn-out, if any of them utilize this program. How about your grandfather, if hes still around?

I see your point as a two headed complaint. 1st that the rangers aren't enforcing the turn-out agreements. And 2nd is that the ranchers arent pulling their animals out by the 15th. I'm all for keeping ones word. So if ranchers have agreed to certain terms then it's their responsibility to live up to those.

I still am curious what part of Idaho you were talking about. Because turn-outs on FS ground do exist in Idaho.

As a side, I have responded to this same issue before, so I will keep this as a summary. The $1.35 is cheap compared to going pasture lease rates, but the quality of feed along with other factors set private lease rates.

With this all said, the turn-outs have been around for generations. I dont see these as being as impactful as claimed. As a direct point to this, one of the first places that elk made their way back to where I grew up was Miller Mt, Goose Nest, Grass lake, area. This area is absolutely chuck full of turn-outs, yet the elk have flourished in this area.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:42 PM   #34
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Here are my responses to your questions. I am from Central Oregon, 5 generations deep. My family comes from a long line of beef and dairy operations, while most of that ended with in the last decade I still have a fair number of family and friends who run a variety of sized operations from 20 head to a couple hundred. My grandfather was a member of the Hampton Butte Grazing association for a very long time. I am well aware of what it takes to run a cattle operation and the struggles that it brings, you may have missed my point earlier, all that doesnt matter. We need to play by the rules. Cattle should be out at 9/15, they should be out. Stubble height should be X"s then it should be managed for X"s, pastures should be rotated X times, they should be rotated.
While I do not reside in the area that I speak I spend time there all year as we have family property near and spend nearly every weekend and holiday on the exact land I am speaking about. I am well informed. I am not here to claim that cattle are the only reason (see original post). I am here to say that we should not be walking on egg shells around cattle and ranchers. We should be looking at all of the issues. We need to manage predators, we need to log USFS, we need to hold ranchers accountable for the damage their property does to public lands, we need to limit doe and cow tags yadda yadda yadda.
Grazing came to my mind because of my recent experience in Idaho, a place with more predators (wolves), more hunters, less grazing and far more feed for elk. Guess what, the amount of game we saw was exceptional. This is simply anecdotal observations. It appears I am not alone. I am more concerned about folks who are unwilling to look at the impact than those who are open minded.

My solutions: Like I said, I am not opposed to cattle grazing and multiple use. I am opposed to those who abuse that. USFS Rangers need to be out inspecting these pastures, ensuring that cattle are moved, stubble height is adequate and fences are maintained. After all, they are getting a pretty damn good deal. $1.35 per AUM on the forest I am referring to.
Well at least you seem to have some working knowledge of the subject. Have you thought to ask your friends or family that run cattle how they feel about this? It would be great to get an opinion of someone actually using a turn-out, if any of them utilize this program. How about your grandfather, if hes still around?

I see your point as a two headed complaint. 1st that the rangers aren't enforcing the turn-out agreements. And 2nd is that the ranchers arent pulling their animals out by the 15th. I'm all for keeping ones word. So if ranchers have agreed to certain terms then it's their responsibility to live up to those.

I still am curious what part of Idaho you were talking about. Because turn-outs on FS ground do exist in Idaho.

As a side, I have responded to this same issue before, so I will keep this as a summary. The $1.35 is cheap compared to going pasture lease rates, but the quality of feed along with other factors set private lease rates.

With this all said, the turn-outs have been around for generations. I dont see these as being as impactful as claimed. As a direct point to this, one of the first places that elk made their way back to where I grew up was Miller Mt, Goose Nest, Grass lake, area. This area is absolutely chuck full of turn-outs, yet the elk have flourished in this area.
I’m sure some forests in idaho allow grazing. The forest (which will remain nameless) I was on did not. Thanks for your input, we are in agreement for some of it.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:22 PM   #35
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I’m sure some forests in idaho allow grazing. The forest (which will remain nameless) I was on did not. Thanks for your input, we are in agreement for some of it.
Well isn't that convenient?! Why remain nameless?
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:36 PM   #36
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Heres a good read for those wanting to know more about how rates are set:

https://www.fs.fed.us/news/releases/...9-grazing-fees
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:37 PM   #37
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I’m sure some forests in idaho allow grazing. The forest (which will remain nameless) I was on did not. Thanks for your input, we are in agreement for some of it.
Well isn't that convenient?! Why remain nameless?
Haha! For one, it’s inconsequential to the argument, two I owe it to my hunting partners and the locals we met to keep the area quiet.

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Old 11-06-2019, 08:19 PM   #38
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From what I can find grazing fees went up to $1.69 in 2015, but on state lands it is $4.25. Why can't the federal grazing fees go up to the $4.25 with extra going towards repairing damage done by cattle on the forests, IE rebuilding stream banks or such

BLM reported it to be 1.35 effective 3/1/2019, decreased from 1.41 in 2018. The fees have gone down from 1.69 since 2015.



https://www.blm.gov/press-release/bl...s-lowered-2019
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:23 PM   #39
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BLM reported it to be 1.35 effective 3/1/2019, decreased from 1.41 in 2018. The fees have gone down from 1.69 since 2015.



https://www.blm.gov/press-release/bl...s-lowered-2019
The link I posted above explains the various factors that go into setting these prices. Beef prices have been down for the the last several years. Definitely part of the reason the price went down.
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:24 PM   #40
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I don't know how much it takes to raise beef for production............and really our family of five eats less than 20 lbs of beef per year so not sure what it costs at a store either. It just seems goofy to set prices based on the 70's and 80's. It seems like we know now in 2019 that our natural resources are more expensive/valuable than that.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:29 AM   #41
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The link I posted above explains the various factors that go into setting these prices. Beef prices have been down for the the last several years. Definitely part of the reason the price went down.
Beef prices at the consumer lever are not down.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:01 AM   #42
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Beef prices at the consumer lever are not down.
At producer level they are.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:41 PM   #43
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Beef prices at the consumer lever are not down.
The % of the total value that ranchers receive for the end product is at the smallest level in history. Or was a few weeks ago. Packers are making a killings. Four packers own 80% of the slaughter capacity in the United States.

You guys talking about being off the last day of the permit are so full of it. Because I’m sure none of you ever speed when nobody is watching, I’m sure none of you have drank and drive before. Ever stayed in two hour parking longer than two hours? Ever made a mistake that was gonna cost you money and you tried to talk your way out of it. I could list hundreds of scenarios! The few late gather cattle that are left on these Huuuge permits do nothing to harm your hunting. That’s besides the fact that this time of year the grass is dead and gone anyway, a few cattle can’t hurt anything and body condition on those cows will decrease so fast I promise you no ranchers wants them left out there anyway.


Want some facts here ya go: Cattle grazing on public lands is at its lowest level in history. Find a place where the cattle have hit an area to hard then MOVE. Because it all doesn’t look like that, sometimes it’s not always cattle either. Wild horses around maybe, maybe a herd of elk? I have seen herds of elk decimate pastures, why do you think there is depredation hunts? Duhhhh!!!!

I have asked time and time and time again!!! If cows are so bad for habitat then why are private ranches stacked with the best hunting. Most private landowners stock their ranches at two or three times what the stocking rate is allowed on USFS permits. A 100,000 acre permit will have maybe 400-600 cows. I promise you a private landowner would have atleast twice that many on the same ground yet they still have better hunting than public ground. Ever stop to think maybe. Those private landowners know a things or two about range management, predator control etc etc etc and doesn’t have the bureaucracy of the govt hamstringing it’s every move.


But goooo ahead!! Keep blaming cows!!!!!
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:49 PM   #44
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The % of the total value that ranchers receive for the end product is at the smallest level in history. Or was a few weeks ago. Packers are making a killings. Four packers own 80% of the slaughter capacity in the United States.

You guys talking about being off the last day of the permit are so full of it. Because I’m sure none of you ever speed when nobody is watching, I’m sure none of you have drank and drive before. Ever stayed in two hour parking longer than two hours? Ever made a mistake that was gonna cost you money and you tried to talk your way out of it. I could list hundreds of scenarios! The few late gather cattle that are left on these Huuuge permits do nothing to harm your hunting. That’s besides the fact that this time of year the grass is dead and gone anyway, a few cattle can’t hurt anything and body condition on those cows will decrease so fast I promise you no ranchers wants them left out there anyway.


Want some facts here ya go: Cattle grazing on public lands is at its lowest level in history. Find a place where the cattle have hit an area to hard then MOVE. Because it all doesn’t look like that, sometimes it’s not always cattle either. Wild horses around maybe, maybe a herd of elk? I have seen herds of elk decimate pastures, why do you think there is depredation hunts? Duhhhh!!!!

I have asked time and time and time again!!! If cows are so bad for habitat then why are private ranches stacked with the best hunting. Most private landowners stock their ranches at two or three times what the stocking rate is allowed on USFS permits. A 100,000 acre permit will have maybe 400-600 cows. I promise you a private landowner would have atleast twice that many on the same ground yet they still have better hunting than public ground. Ever stop to think maybe. Those private landowners know a things or two about range management, predator control etc etc etc and doesn’t have the bureaucracy of the govt hamstringing it’s every move.


But goooo ahead!! Keep blaming cows!!!!!
All great points.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:04 AM   #45
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The % of the total value that ranchers receive for the end product is at the smallest level in history. Or was a few weeks ago. Packers are making a killings. Four packers own 80% of the slaughter capacity in the United States.

You guys talking about being off the last day of the permit are so full of it. Because I’m sure none of you ever speed when nobody is watching, I’m sure none of you have drank and drive before. Ever stayed in two hour parking longer than two hours? Ever made a mistake that was gonna cost you money and you tried to talk your way out of it. I could list hundreds of scenarios! The few late gather cattle that are left on these Huuuge permits do nothing to harm your hunting. That’s besides the fact that this time of year the grass is dead and gone anyway, a few cattle can’t hurt anything and body condition on those cows will decrease so fast I promise you no ranchers wants them left out there anyway.


Want some facts here ya go: Cattle grazing on public lands is at its lowest level in history. Find a place where the cattle have hit an area to hard then MOVE. Because it all doesn’t look like that, sometimes it’s not always cattle either. Wild horses around maybe, maybe a herd of elk? I have seen herds of elk decimate pastures, why do you think there is depredation hunts? Duhhhh!!!!

I have asked time and time and time again!!! If cows are so bad for habitat then why are private ranches stacked with the best hunting. Most private landowners stock their ranches at two or three times what the stocking rate is allowed on USFS permits. A 100,000 acre permit will have maybe 400-600 cows. I promise you a private landowner would have atleast twice that many on the same ground yet they still have better hunting than public ground. Ever stop to think maybe. Those private landowners know a things or two about range management, predator control etc etc etc and doesn’t have the bureaucracy of the govt hamstringing it’s every move.


But goooo ahead!! Keep blaming cows!!!!!
I will. Thanks for your permission. Most hunters in eastern Oregon have seen the ranches with great condition forage. And all the surrounding BLM eaten down to dirt. Deer forage so sparse on the public land. It will support few deer. The real deer numbers on the public land prove this. Then when you observe where the Beef are on these large ranches. You see many are in low elevation feed lot pastures. These Beef on some large ranches never see the rest of the ranch. They see the feed pasture and the grazing allotments. Sure some Beef will see the prime ranch areas. The prize Bulls will be seen. Along with the Elk. Which are treated like a cash crop on some ranches, A pest on others.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:34 AM   #46
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

The couple ranches I've hunted had big piles of alfalfa sitting around, no public roads through them, and were on the best watered areas of the surrounding public land. Even had people running off the predators. I'd be there too if I were an elk.

A question on maintaining water on the lease. The guzzlers I've seen on blm/usfs, even on private land on at least one ranch, were paid for by the agency or groups like OHA to improve habitat. It's not an expense born by the lessee. Just fix it if your cows break it seems like how it works. That the same for all of them?
The problem is not the cows. Nobody has anything against a family rancher, but there aren't very many left. It's the politics that games the system and gives a subsidy for primarily corporate and billionaire hobby ranchers. No reason we should subsidize any of that.
BTW, according to BLM only 50% of the grazing fees go back into the grazing program. The rest goes to the Treasury.

How about this? If a family ranch stays in the family, carry on. If it's sold to a third party, leases go up for auction. Maybe they are only worth 10-15% of market. Let's find out.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:35 AM   #47
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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The % of the total value that ranchers receive for the end product is at the smallest level in history. Or was a few weeks ago. Packers are making a killings. Four packers own 80% of the slaughter capacity in the United States.

You guys talking about being off the last day of the permit are so full of it. Because I’m sure none of you ever speed when nobody is watching, I’m sure none of you have drank and drive before. Ever stayed in two hour parking longer than two hours? Ever made a mistake that was gonna cost you money and you tried to talk your way out of it. I could list hundreds of scenarios! The few late gather cattle that are left on these Huuuge permits do nothing to harm your hunting. That’s besides the fact that this time of year the grass is dead and gone anyway, a few cattle can’t hurt anything and body condition on those cows will decrease so fast I promise you no ranchers wants them left out there anyway.


Want some facts here ya go: Cattle grazing on public lands is at its lowest level in history. Find a place where the cattle have hit an area to hard then MOVE. Because it all doesn’t look like that, sometimes it’s not always cattle either. Wild horses around maybe, maybe a herd of elk? I have seen herds of elk decimate pastures, why do you think there is depredation hunts? Duhhhh!!!!

I have asked time and time and time again!!! If cows are so bad for habitat then why are private ranches stacked with the best hunting. Most private landowners stock their ranches at two or three times what the stocking rate is allowed on USFS permits. A 100,000 acre permit will have maybe 400-600 cows. I promise you a private landowner would have atleast twice that many on the same ground yet they still have better hunting than public ground. Ever stop to think maybe. Those private landowners know a things or two about range management, predator control etc etc etc and doesn’t have the bureaucracy of the govt hamstringing it’s every move.


But goooo ahead!! Keep blaming cows!!!!!

Honestly,
It isn't hard to make the converse argument to your points.
  • Because other people break the law does not excuse someone else from doing it.
  • There is poor feed on the allotment pastures, which means the feed that is eaten by cattle is even more important to the ungulates left to survive on it into winter. Especially post rut.
  • Ranches are located on higher quality ground. (River Bottoms, Winter Range etc)
  • Their properties are in good shape BECAUSE their cattle feed on public allotments

My point was never to solely blame cattle, it was however to include them as one of many negative factors.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:25 PM   #48
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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Honestly,
It isn't hard to make the converse argument to your points.
  • Because other people break the law does not excuse someone else from doing it.
  • There is poor feed on the allotment pastures, which means the feed that is eaten by cattle is even more important to the ungulates left to survive on it into winter. Especially post rut.
  • Ranches are located on higher quality ground. (River Bottoms, Winter Range etc)
  • Their properties are in good shape BECAUSE their cattle feed on public allotments

My point was never to solely blame cattle, it was however to include them as one of many negative factors.

You think that’s it’s easy to refute my response because you throw every single ranch and rancher into exactly the same category which shows your complete disregard and lack of understanding these issues .

Much of the best summer pasture in the nw is on allotments not on private property. High summer mountain feed is the best place to for cows to spend the summer. If you want those reasons I’ll oblige you.

Again to say all allotments have poor forage is absolutely absurd. I’m sure some probably do. Do you know there is winter pasture permits in some areas?

Private ranches offer different feed at different times of year, to day private land is all around better is extremely incorrect. Maybe more productive farm ground, maybe better winter, but most don’t have the best place for a cow all summer. Winter grounds and bottom as you describe are not ideal places to summer cattle as they burn Up early.

I visit countless ranches every year that are overstocked and they are full of game. To say they are Pristine is to say ranchers only turn out cows to summer pasture and never take cows home.

Keep trying though
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:39 PM   #49
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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I will. Thanks for your permission. Most hunters in eastern Oregon have seen the ranches with great condition forage. And all the surrounding BLM eaten down to dirt. Deer forage so sparse on the public land. It will support few deer. The real deer numbers on the public land prove this. Then when you observe where the Beef are on these large ranches. You see many are in low elevation feed lot pastures. These Beef on some large ranches never see the rest of the ranch. They see the feed pasture and the grazing allotments. Sure some Beef will see the prime ranch areas. The prize Bulls will be seen. Along with the Elk. Which are treated like a cash crop on some ranches, A pest on others.
I know in some the high desert range ecosystems you see more tougher allotment conditions than I. Certainly to say all pasture conditions are created equal is absolutely false. There are absolutely places that get taken advantage of as in all walks of life. I can and would be happy to show any of you on any given day what ungrazed, un utilized pastures do for wildlife.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:33 AM   #50
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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I know in some the high desert range ecosystems you see more tougher allotment conditions than I. Certainly to say all pasture conditions are created equal is absolutely false. There are absolutely places that get taken advantage of as in all walks of life. I can and would be happy to show any of you on any given day what ungrazed, un utilized pastures do for wildlife.
Not required. I see ungrazed protected for wildlife areas of BLM/USFS every year. In the Cascades I hunted an area that had a beef allotment for years. The Beef kept a lot of area open for wildlife. Then the USFS closed the allotment. The habitat became over grown in just a few years. I suspect it was closed, Because the fencing cost more to maintain. Than a couple hundred beef could support. Round up was impossible once the beef walked right over the down fence in hundreds of places from beetle kill. When the beef owner was only repairing fence seen from roads.
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:38 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Steel4Sam View Post
Honestly,
It isn't hard to make the converse argument to your points.
  • Because other people break the law does not excuse someone else from doing it.
  • There is poor feed on the allotment pastures, which means the feed that is eaten by cattle is even more important to the ungulates left to survive on it into winter. Especially post rut.
  • Ranches are located on higher quality ground. (River Bottoms, Winter Range etc)
  • Their properties are in good shape BECAUSE their cattle feed on public allotments

My point was never to solely blame cattle, it was however to include them as one of many negative factors.

You think that’️s it’️s easy to refute my response because you throw every single ranch and rancher into exactly the same category which shows your complete disregard and lack of understanding these issues .

Much of the best summer pasture in the nw is on allotments not on private property. High summer mountain feed is the best place to for cows to spend the summer. If you want those reasons I’️ll oblige you.

Again to say all allotments have poor forage is absolutely absurd. I’️m sure some probably do. Do you know there is winter pasture permits in some areas?

Private ranches offer different feed at different times of year, to day private land is all around better is extremely incorrect. Maybe more productive farm ground, maybe better winter, but most don’️t have the best place for a cow all summer. Winter grounds and bottom as you describe are not ideal places to summer cattle as they burn Up early.

I visit countless ranches every year that are overstocked and they are full of game. To say they are Pristine is to say ranchers only turn out cows to summer pasture and never take cows home.

Keep trying though
You’ve got your perspective, which you believe to be the only correct line of thinking. I’ve got mine. I appreciate your effort and can agree that not all allotments or ranches or ranchers are the same. In fact one of the pastures near where we spend our time is grazed by an operation that work hard to maintain fences, move their cows and gather on time. There is a noticeable difference between their allotment and the one across the fence. That’s where my “beef” is. I’m not interested in continuing the measuring contest with you. You obviously have more knowledge about ranching than me. You also have bias in that regard. I have my own bias. Agree to disagree and move on?


Have a good one.
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Old 11-09-2019, 01:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

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You’ve got your perspective, which you believe to be the only correct line of thinking. I’ve got mine. I appreciate your effort and can agree that not all allotments or ranches or ranchers are the same. In fact one of the pastures near where we spend our time is grazed by an operation that work hard to maintain fences, move their cows and gather on time. There is a noticeable difference between their allotment and the one across the fence. That’s where my “beef” is. I’m not interested in continuing the measuring contest with you. You obviously have more knowledge about ranching than me. You also have bias in that regard. I have my own bias. Agree to disagree and move on?


Have a good one.
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Old 11-10-2019, 04:12 PM   #53
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

https://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/feed.png
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:08 AM   #54
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It’s not been my experience that private cattle property has good deer hunting or deer numbers - where I live in CA there is a lot of rolling hills grassland with oaks, and in areas without cattle it is loaded with blacktail. In areas with cattle, hard to see even 1 deer. Lots of turkeys around the cattle, but I have seen enough contrast of “lots of deer over here”, and “no deer over there”. Same with wild pigs - deer don’t want to be around them either.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:53 PM   #55
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Pics don't lie...
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:28 PM   #56
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Every cow you see on public land is worth two elk.

In South Africa lots of the cattle ranchers gave up. Sold their cows took down their fences,,,game animal populations came back big time and landowners are making so much more money in the hunting buisness,

Cattle really hurt salmon recovery,,,all their activities cause breeding streams to be a few critical degrees warmer. Oxygen levels drop.

Keep the cattle out of streams except to drink every quarter mile, water cools off salmon return.

Cattle in national forest, actually plow the forest floor with their hooves, then fertilize the soil,,,end results, lots of brush plants that do not get eaten and form a perfect wild fire ladder.

All through the southwest those cow ponds are an unnatural breeding grounds for tropical mosqutoes brought up by the Arizona monsoons now carrying Dengue fever and encephalitis.

All this hurrah about ranches being great for hunting depends on an unnatrual food source, They are feed lots without fences,It is more shooting than hunting.

I was wandering around some small National Forest mountains in Nevada where the cattle where kept out to protect an endangered grouse in the high country

Turned into a hunters paradise for deer and bighorn sheep population came right up.

The fence line said it all,,,bounty one side,,,overgrazed to dust on the other side..
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:48 PM   #57
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I had an interesting observation this past weekend while helping my son on his spike hunt this last weekend in Northeast OR. There were cattle and elk grazing side by side on an open hillside and remained that way for at least an hour. Eventually there were 200 elk with about 15 beef cows. I have noticed similar events many times in my lifetime. The elk, deer, and cattle can coexist. My family had a USFS allotment for 75+ years and as Traks44 mentioned those pastures often provided better nutrition than most lower elevation pastures. If areas are getting overgrazed then the ranchers and government officials need to rectify that. Rarely in our allotment was anything overgrazed and those areas tended to be the meadows or meadow-like areas. In many instances, those areas would be fenced to not allow that to happen in the future. In most cases that was at the expense of the ranchers and not the government. Cattle are always going to eat the very best grass first and continue to do so if it regrows. Our wildlife does so to an extent as well. In my opinion, all parties need to work closely together in these situations and certain areas may have different situations. BLM and USFS allotments may be handled in different manners depending upon the part of the state they are in. Consistency and cooperation is required to remedy some of the issues that has been stated.
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Old 11-12-2019, 03:21 AM   #58
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I just got back from Idaho and I was hunting National Forest up above Elk City, and yes they do in fact allow grazing. I would be interested to hear where you were.

I'm not trying to defend or oppose your position, but just curious why the difference.

How was your hunt? I hunted in that area a decade ago and had a blast
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:48 AM   #59
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Default Re: Cattle Grazing Observations

I was hunting Chesnimnus 1st season and they were still rounding up cows during the entire season.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:56 AM   #60
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I had an interesting observation this past weekend while helping my son on his spike hunt this last weekend in Northeast OR. There were cattle and elk grazing side by side on an open hillside and remained that way for at least an hour. Eventually there were 200 elk with about 15 beef cows. I have noticed similar events many times in my lifetime. The elk, deer, and cattle can coexist. My family had a USFS allotment for 75+ years and as Traks44 mentioned those pastures often provided better nutrition than most lower elevation pastures. If areas are getting overgrazed then the ranchers and government officials need to rectify that. Rarely in our allotment was anything overgrazed and those areas tended to be the meadows or meadow-like areas. In many instances, those areas would be fenced to not allow that to happen in the future. In most cases that was at the expense of the ranchers and not the government. Cattle are always going to eat the very best grass first and continue to do so if it regrows. Our wildlife does so to an extent as well. In my opinion, all parties need to work closely together in these situations and certain areas may have different situations. BLM and USFS allotments may be handled in different manners depending upon the part of the state they are in. Consistency and cooperation is required to remedy some of the issues that has been stated.



Exactly. We raise cattle as a small family farm and if I over-graze my pastures, my cows have no food. Overgrazing can cause problems in any situation, be it in a small pastured family farm or a huge forest allotment. This does not mean that everyone that has an allotment overgrazes those areas.


That picture above is a great example of over grazing, but we also do not know the situation behind the pic. For all I know that could be some farmers pasture.... Im not saying thats the case, but it is easy to jump on the back of something that we may not have a good understanding.


I know personally quite a few ranchers that run cattle on forest allotments, and they are true stewards of the land. They are constantly trying to improve habitat. Of course there are bad apples in every bunch, but in my opinion, most of these ranchers are good hard working people that are trying very hard to do the right thing.....
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