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Old 10-26-2019, 08:19 AM   #1
Sallysea
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Default A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

A few days ago I attended an ODFW meeting in Port Orford. A statistician gave a presentation on hatchery v NS fish. He explained that hatchery fish influence the NS fish quality if they spawn in the river despite almost no change in the total number of NS fish in the river for the last 40 years. Assigning a risk number to hatchery fish, he put up a chart showing that all the fall chinook will be gone in less than 100 years. I pointed out that this was dangerous speculation but it was clear all the ODFW staff were eating it up. In addition, a new member to the ODFW commission was there and was in agreement.
Actual data shows a decrease in hatchery fish spawning in the river over the last 4-5 years but that did not seem to matter. And it did not matter that hatchery fish have been spawning in the river for 40 years or that broodstock is used in the hatchery.
Welcome to the new anti-hatchery propaganda approach.

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Old 10-26-2019, 08:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

NS = "native strain"?
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Old 10-26-2019, 08:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Do not believe any thing you hear until you see the power point by the hatchery wild co exists!! All based on true science!! Up to date science not 40 year old studies.
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

So goes the days of abundant fish in our rivers. I have a difficult time believing that the ODFW is that narrow sighted.

Who knows we may not be here in 100 years then does it matter?
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

What was the statitician's name? Is he an ODFW employee?
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Kingkiller View Post
So goes the days of abundant fish in our rivers. I have a difficult time believing that the ODFW is that narrow sighted.

Who knows we may not be here in 100 years then does it matter?
I am pretty sure I won't be here then...
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

We need more information on this matter.

Was the statistician referencing peer reviewed science?

Could you please post a copy of the "actual data" that shows fewer spawning fish in the rivers and their spawning presence has no effect on NS fish?
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

luckily for us, there is more literature all of the time showing they CAN coexist. I wish we had a better relationship with the tribes, they seem to know how to run an operation well, maintaining healthy wild stocks with lots of hatchery fish to harvest.

I think the data is out there, but in this day, politics will always muddy the waters.... the extremist groups are a pita
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Old 10-26-2019, 10:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Sallysea View Post
A few days ago I attended an ODFW meeting in Port Orford. A statistician gave a presentation on hatchery v NS fish. He explained that hatchery fish influence the NS fish quality if they spawn in the river despite almost no change in the total number of NS fish in the river for the last 40 years. Assigning a risk number to hatchery fish, he put up a chart showing that all the fall chinook will be gone in less than 100 years. I pointed out that this was dangerous speculation but it was clear all the ODFW staff were eating it up. In addition, a new member to the ODFW commission was there and was in agreement.
Actual data shows a decrease in hatchery fish spawning in the river over the last 4-5 years but that did not seem to matter. And it did not matter that hatchery fish have been spawning in the river for 40 years or that broodstock is used in the hatchery.
Welcome to the new anti-hatchery propaganda approach.

So ODFW isn't onboard with the hatchery fish rebranding campaign?
Maybe they didn't get the memo.
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Old 10-26-2019, 02:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Sorry to say I don't know the name of the guy who presented the information nor do I have any of his data. Yes he was with ODFW. I raised the issue about how dangerous it was to deliver such a concept and how a news source could easily abbreviate and misrepresent the conclusion. But it did not seem to matter. He used Elk river data from 1998 to I think 2014. I have charts provided by ODFW that show the number of hatchery fish v NS from the early 70's to 2018. The numbers of NS fish has remained constant over that time contrary to his smaller window. Since hatchery practices have not changed much over nearly 50 years on this river, based on his calculations, only half of the original population should be left. Not so.
I will try to get this guy's name. It might take a few days.
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Old 10-26-2019, 04:46 PM   #11
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

why dont we just shut down all retention of anadramous species? make all rivers catch and release. All of our fish are endangered. Look at the kamchatka russia project. they didnt let anyone fish there for years. let it be. those numbers have gone from nothing to flourishing. then everyone is happy when we actually have fish, regardless if they are NS or hatchery.

Oh, and cut back on commercial fishing too
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Old 10-26-2019, 04:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Sallysea View Post
Sorry to say I don't know the name of the guy who presented the information nor do I have any of his data. Yes he was with ODFW. I raised the issue about how dangerous it was to deliver such a concept and how a news source could easily abbreviate and misrepresent the conclusion. But it did not seem to matter. He used Elk river data from 1998 to I think 2014. I have charts provided by ODFW that show the number of hatchery fish v NS from the early 70's to 2018. The numbers of NS fish has remained constant over that time contrary to his smaller window. Since hatchery practices have not changed much over nearly 50 years on this river, based on his calculations, only half of the original population should be left. Not so.
I will try to get this guy's name. It might take a few days.
It's impossible to say whether the unclipped fish are native or not. They could be a miss clipped fish from hatchery. or even a fish from a native hatchery that doesnt clip. you never know...
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Old 10-26-2019, 04:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by carlosjr View Post
It's impossible to say whether the unclipped fish are native or not. They could be a miss clipped fish from hatchery. or even a fish from a native hatchery that doesnt clip. you never know...

Federal law mandates all hatchery fish released must be fin clipped.
The only exception is for repropagation and research purposes.
These laws apply to Native Americans as well.
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Old 10-26-2019, 07:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by carlosjr View Post
why dont we just shut down all retention of anadramous species? make all rivers catch and release. All of our fish are endangered.:
Why is catch and release okay? I’m not allowed to chase elk around on my ATV just for fun; harassing wildlife is illegal. It seems hypocritical to me that several of the most outspoken proponents of closing hatcheries happen to be C&R fly fishing guides.


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Old 10-26-2019, 08:01 PM   #15
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Lightbulb Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Simple solutions...
1.Habitat! First and foremost. This includes logging practices.

2.Keep hatchery fish away from mixing with wild fish. Don't say it cannot be done because it was done in the past
3.Increased daily limit on all hatchery fish. Every hatchery fish NOT harvested is wasted money.
4.Close all upper rivers, with a viable wild population, to fishing of any kind from March 31st until Memorial Day weekend.


The link to future sports fishing is wild fish! Wouldn't it make sense to do all we can to enhance and protect them?
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Old 10-26-2019, 08:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Jerry Dove View Post
Do not believe any thing you hear until you see the power point by the hatchery wild co exists!! All based on true science!! Up to date science not 40 year old studies.
I think the hatchery wild co exist science makes the most sense for everyone.....but since when does the ODFW use science & data to make decisions? It's all about the $$$ anymore.

The O.P's subject is frightening. If the powers that be can save money by cutting hatcheries, I believe they will. It doesn't matter what it does to fish or fisherman.
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Old 10-26-2019, 08:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
Federal law mandates all hatchery fish released must be fin clipped.
The only exception is for repropagation and research purposes.
These laws apply to Native Americans as well.

If my memory is correct, unclipped hatchery coho are retained in Puget Sound every year. I can't recall the general area but it seems I recall one of the fish counters telling me that is why we can keep them.
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Old 10-26-2019, 08:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
Why is catch and release okay? I’m not allowed to chase elk around on my ATV just for fun; harassing wildlife is illegal. It seems hypocritical to me that several of the most outspoken proponents of closing hatcheries happen to be C&R fly fishing guides.


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Good point. Touche. I don't mean for the following to be targeting you, just thinking out loud, so correct me or add on if i'm an idiot ahahha

If we can't catch and release, and we only catch and keep, where does that get us? Lets just shut down all fisheries and not fish at all, right? same goes for elk season if thats the same analogy. In the hunting world, you either go out and hunt, bag your elk for the year and you're done. Or, you don't hunt at all. Maybe a proposed bag limit on anadramous fish should be in place? say, 10 fish per person for the year. After that limit, you are done. Couldn't that be something worth looking at?
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

All of our river could be like this if we drain the swamp. full of steelhead and salmon. let the tribes have the money and take over the complete system. watch episode 24 you can hear logging in the back ground.


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Old 10-26-2019, 11:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Here is the chart that I have from ODFW on Elk River Fish. It goes to 2010, my error. But notice the linear average for the "wild " fish. It is linear. When the hatchery fish numbers are up, so are the "wild" fish numbers leading one to believe the problem of the Wild fish is not the hatchery fish but external issues that effect the success of both fishes.
It also shows that the total numbers of hatchery fish do not impact the returns of the "wild" fish.
Keep this chart handy when you go to your next ODFW hatchery meeting.
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Old 10-27-2019, 01:16 AM   #21
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Good point. Touche. I don't mean for the following to be targeting you, just thinking out loud, so correct me or add on if i'm an idiot ahahha

If we can't catch and release, and we only catch and keep, where does that get us? Lets just shut down all fisheries and not fish at all, right? same goes for elk season if thats the same analogy. In the hunting world, you either go out and hunt, bag your elk for the year and you're done. Or, you don't hunt at all. Maybe a proposed bag limit on anadramous fish should be in place? say, 10 fish per person for the year. After that limit, you are done. Couldn't that be something worth looking at?
I didn't mean to imply that you were an idiot; I just don't understand the catch and release mentality. No matter how careful people are, there is some release mortality. The proposal to close consumptive fisheries in favor of C&R raises my hackles as competition between user groups masked as conservation.

I also don't agree with the 10 per year proposal. This seems to be brought up regularly by folks that only catch a few fish per year but want to keep seasons open longer in their backyards instead of fishing more often when the seasons are open. I fish where and when the runs are good in different areas, which means I support the economy from Astoria all the way up the gorge, and along the coast from Astoria to Gold Beach. If I were only allowed 10 fish per year, I would normally be done by June 1st. I follow the per-day and per-season limits in all of the fisheries I participate in. If there is a legitimate reason for tight per-season limits like we've seen in Tillamook systems in recent years, then I support ODFW for being proactive. However, I think creating artificial limits such as you are proposing doesn't seem right. We all have equal opportunity to catch fish if we're willing to drive to where they're running; penalizing those of us that make fishing a priority doesn't make sense to me. It would hurt coastal economies; it would give the states / feds / BPA an excuse to produce less fish; and it would leave more fish on the table for netters to have to "mop-up."

We need to work together to get more fish in the systems, both wild and hatchery, or none of us will be fishing.
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Old 10-27-2019, 08:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
I didn't mean to imply that you were an idiot; I just don't understand the catch and release mentality. No matter how careful people are, there is some release mortality. The proposal to close consumptive fisheries in favor of C&R raises my hackles as competition between user groups masked as conservation.

I also don't agree with the 10 per year proposal. This seems to be brought up regularly by folks that only catch a few fish per year but want to keep seasons open longer in their backyards instead of fishing more often when the seasons are open. I fish where and when the runs are good in different areas, which means I support the economy from Astoria all the way up the gorge, and along the coast from Astoria to Gold Beach. If I were only allowed 10 fish per year, I would normally be done by June 1st. I follow the per-day and per-season limits in all of the fisheries I participate in. If there is a legitimate reason for tight per-season limits like we've seen in Tillamook systems in recent years, then I support ODFW for being proactive. However, I think creating artificial limits such as you are proposing doesn't seem right. We all have equal opportunity to catch fish if we're willing to drive to where they're running; penalizing those of us that make fishing a priority doesn't make sense to me. It would hurt coastal economies; it would give the states / feds / BPA an excuse to produce less fish; and it would leave more fish on the table for netters to have to "mop-up."

We need to work together to get more fish in the systems, both wild and hatchery, or none of us will be fishing.
Hahaha beefcake, I was implying that I myself, am an idiot. At least thats what my friends and lady tell me hahahahahaa

I understand where you are coming from. The 10 fish limit was just an arbitrary number I pulled out of the blue as an example. All I mean is to put a cap on the amount of fish we as anglers catch, rather than filling up a 20 fish card, then going out and getting another, and another, and another, and then going to washington to get another. Get what I mean?

I also understand the idea that doing just C&R seems like it may just be coming from NFS fly anglers. I get it, I am a fly angler too. But I don't support NFS. I know hatcheries play a supportive role in fish populations too. I want there to be fish for everyone and for future fishermen, however, it is just insane what is happening to our fish populations and I'd rather see all of our rivers shut down temporarily (yes that means worse economy too, I get that), than see our fish become extinct and then no fish and no economy. It has to get worse at some point before it can get better.
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Old 10-27-2019, 09:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Many talk about money. A friends step-dad came to visit him for S. Dakota. Visiting with his step-dad we started talking bird hunting. The pheasant opener was going to start the next weekend. He was explaining the millions of dollars $$$$ that just the opener brings to the State.

These dollars use to be brought into Oregon for the off shore salmon season as well as fishing in the Columbia and other rivers. We have lost all of that or most of that money.

When our Representatives look at funding hatcheries or funding schools they pick the later. Those should never be in the same circle.
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Old 10-27-2019, 10:49 AM   #24
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Many talk about money. A friends step-dad came to visit him for S. Dakota. Visiting with his step-dad we started talking bird hunting. The pheasant opener was going to start the next weekend. He was explaining the millions of dollars $$$$ that just the opener brings to the State.

These dollars use to be brought into Oregon for the off shore salmon season as well as fishing in the Columbia and other rivers. We have lost all of that or most of that money.

When our Representatives look at funding hatcheries or funding schools they pick the later. Those should never be in the same circle.
Oregon has two groups of politicians, one groups advocates for a thriving timber industry with little to no regard for environmental impacts to salmon.
The other group advocates for environmental responsiblitiy.
Which group do you think is bigger?
Bear in mind the environment can't funnel large sums of money into politicians PAC accounts.
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Old 10-27-2019, 12:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
Why is catch and release okay? I’m not allowed to chase elk around on my ATV just for fun; harassing wildlife is illegal. It seems hypocritical to me that several of the most outspoken proponents of closing hatcheries happen to be C&R fly fishing guides.


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Always been a disturbing subject to me also. It seems pretty hypocritical to get yours then tell me that I can have mine because it is different from your choice.
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Old 10-27-2019, 02:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Sallysea View Post
Sorry to say I don't know the name of the guy who presented the information nor do I have any of his data. Yes he was with ODFW. I raised the issue about how dangerous it was to deliver such a concept and how a news source could easily abbreviate and misrepresent the conclusion. But it did not seem to matter. He used Elk river data from 1998 to I think 2014. I have charts provided by ODFW that show the number of hatchery fish v NS from the early 70's to 2018. The numbers of NS fish has remained constant over that time contrary to his smaller window. Since hatchery practices have not changed much over nearly 50 years on this river, based on his calculations, only half of the original population should be left. Not so.
I will try to get this guy's name. It might take a few days.

And as we are talking about a study which appears specific to the Elk River note that there has not been any logging in the Elk River drainage in nearly 30 years.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by carlosjr View Post
why dont we just shut down all retention of anadramous species? make all rivers catch and release. All of our fish are endangered. Look at the kamchatka russia project. they didnt let anyone fish there for years. let it be. those numbers have gone from nothing to flourishing. then everyone is happy when we actually have fish, regardless if they are NS or hatchery.

Oh, and cut back on commercial fishing too

In the mean time we can all put on our rainbow panties and ride through fields of butterflies on our unicorns.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
Simple solutions...
1.Habitat! First and foremost. This includes logging practices.

2.Keep hatchery fish away from mixing with wild fish. Don't say it cannot be done because it was done in the past
3.Increased daily limit on all hatchery fish. Every hatchery fish NOT harvested is wasted money.
4.Close all upper rivers, with a viable wild population, to fishing of any kind from March 31st until Memorial Day weekend.


The link to future sports fishing is wild fish! Wouldn't it make sense to do all we can to enhance and protect them?

I am sorry, but the whole Wild Fish Agenda has brought about an end to something we as Americans as a whole have spent Millions of Dollars to save. If not Billions. Clearly you got the Government to agree with the Wild Fish Agenda by way of cost.



Promoting every hatch fish that is not harvested is wasted money is very anti hatchery and FOREMOST anti salmon. Had it not been for the efforts to the private land owner putting up hatch boxes to the feds putting up Mitchell Act Hatcheries in the 1950's there would not be even half the fish today.



There is technology out there that works in hatcheries. There is no doubt much needed improvements needs and funding to do so.



If habitat is the key issue, why do you let big companies and developers grow houses along river beds and streams using killers like Roundup? Ever been up to the Sandy Hatchery? I am sure you have, ever seen the land owners nice pretty manicured lawns on the drive in? It is proven there are many detrimental effects downstream to a salt product that readily binds itself to H2O.



I think there is a lot better things your organization could be doing instead of attacking the Sports Fishing Industry and then say you are trying to help it. I can also clearly see there are many on here that do not agree with the current politics running our fisheries.


I would bet your organization could do way more good by going out and spending some of your hard earned donations by doing stream restoration in a big way.


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Old 10-29-2019, 10:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Both hatchery and wild fish are subject to the same 1-5 years of ocean conditions and fisheries so it makes perfect sense that the graphs of both types of fish would at least mirror each other from a population standpoint. In my opinion, no way would the hatchery fish as propagated ever wipe out the wild run in elk river, other conditions will override those concerns in both the short and long term given the current hatchery practices.



Chinook are easy to rear and release and can help sport fisheries, but what priority and cost is this program given over others? Is it a nice to have fisheries or an actual positive money generator? I showed over 30 years ago in the Curry Economic Development Plan that raising Chinook on the south coast in low tech facilities was a boon to the area economy. Other biologist in the 1960's and 70's showed the exact same thing.



Elk River Chinook have a long history of supporting both inland and ocean target fisheries up and down the pacific coast. The state has supported the program with sport license dollars at a greater and greater cost each year. If the state stops funding the hatchery program it will force the legislature to fund it or get the Canadian and California benefactors to pony up. Otherwise we have to rely on a much smaller return of fish for sport anglers for both the Chetco and Elk and the nearshore fisheries, just like in all the other south coast streams.


The south coast rivers have always contributed to the Northern California and Oregon coast fisheries, but with the domination of hatchery Chinook from California hatcheries do we need to support a small hatchery program for the Chetco and Elk Rivers? If you love wild fish you should support this hatchery program because without it as a buffer for wild fish, Jim Lichatowich has stated this inriver fisheries will die and wild fish will get hammered even more. What more do you need to know?
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

This is true:


The south coast rivers have always contributed to the Northern California and Oregon coast fisheries, but with the domination of hatchery Chinook from California hatcheries do we need to support a small hatchery program for the Chetco and Elk Rivers? If you love wild fish you should support this hatchery program because without it as a buffer for wild fish, Jim Lichatowich has stated this inriver fisheries will die and wild fish will get hammered even more. What more do you need to know?



You can go to any system and see this with your own eyes.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:52 PM   #31
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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I would bet your organization could do way more good by going out and spending some of your hard earned donations by doing stream restoration in a big way.
Are you saying they don't? I don't think that's the case; it's not an either/or choice so even if you don't agree w/ some of their positions it doesn't mean they aren't still helping in other areas.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:16 PM   #32
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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In the mean time we can all put on our rainbow panties and ride through fields of butterflies on our unicorns.
but actually though... just shut down the entire fishery...
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:35 PM   #33
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I am sorry, but the whole Wild Fish Agenda has brought about an end to something we as Americans as a whole have spent Millions of Dollars to save. If not Billions. Clearly you got the Government to agree with the Wild Fish Agenda by way of cost.



Promoting every hatch fish that is not harvested is wasted money is very anti hatchery and FOREMOST anti salmon. Had it not been for the efforts to the private land owner putting up hatch boxes to the feds putting up Mitchell Act Hatcheries in the 1950's there would not be even half the fish today.



There is technology out there that works in hatcheries. There is no doubt much needed improvements needs and funding to do so.



If habitat is the key issue, why do you let big companies and developers grow houses along river beds and streams using killers like Roundup? Ever been up to the Sandy Hatchery? I am sure you have, ever seen the land owners nice pretty manicured lawns on the drive in? It is proven there are many detrimental effects downstream to a salt product that readily binds itself to H2O.



I think there is a lot better things your organization could be doing instead of attacking the Sports Fishing Industry and then say you are trying to help it. I can also clearly see there are many on here that do not agree with the current politics running our fisheries.


I would bet your organization could do way more good by going out and spending some of your hard earned donations by doing stream restoration in a big way.


Welcome to the new LIGHT!

Excuse me? Pal, you do not know me at all so don't try to tell me what I am thinking!!! Got that?
One of "my" groups is Trout Unlimited....perhaps you've heard of them and their stream restoration work

Why do I let big companies build house along the river? Do you understand just how ridiculous that statement is?
I am able to hold a serious and intelligent discussion with most of the people that might have a differing opinion than me. I've done it many times in fact.
There are times though, when the person I'm talking to just pull their opinions out of their rear end. This is one of those times



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Old 10-29-2019, 05:33 PM   #34
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
Federal law mandates all hatchery fish released must be fin clipped.
The only exception is for repropagation and research purposes.
These laws apply to Native Americans as well.
yet every year I see a native / unclipped chinook that has a tag in its nose LOL
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:10 PM   #35
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Its Clearly Apparent.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:52 PM   #36
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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yet every year I see a native / unclipped chinook that has a tag in its nose LOL

And you can tell this not a research or repopulation fishy how? LOL
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:41 AM   #37
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

What we will be needing is a branding of fish. When you catch one just look at its side for the brand and see if it is wild,native, hatchery, research, redistributed or from a native American hatchery.

I really think we (IFish) has fought this war on many other threads.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Presentation was by;

Dr. David Noakes (OSU, OHRC)-OHRC Research
Dr. Maryam Kamran (OSU)- Olfactory imprinting
Dr. Matt Falcy (ODFW)- Population variability of Elk River Fall Chinook
Dr. Marc Johnson (ODFW)- ODFW approach to managing genetic risks from hatchery salmon.

You can check out their resumes and published work to determine if they are qualified or not.


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Old 10-30-2019, 04:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

The issue is not the qualifications of the presenters, the issue is the controversial topic. Making a 100 year prediction on the salmon population in Elk River is crazy. No one knows what the salmon populations will be in 100 years. Information like this could easily be utilized by others with an agenda. Not that ODFW doesn't have one. I did a projection chart in Excel from 2011 to 2018, the latest pHOS data from Elk River. The last column is pHOS. It looks like hatchery fish will be almost gone from the spawning beds in a few years. But, in reality, no one has any idea what the next year will look like until the counts are made. Want projections, I can make them too. Projections are speculative at best.
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Spinitrode View Post
Are you saying they don't? I don't think that's the case; it's not an either/or choice so even if you don't agree w/ some of their positions it doesn't mean they aren't still helping in other areas.
I’ll say it, the NFS has nothing to do with fish, fishing, or restoration. It’s about moving money from donors to lawyers using lawsuits as the means, the secondary function is about control. Who fishes, where, how... at the end of the day our freedom to roam is what they hate the most. If they could control our access to rivers by some other means, they wouldn’t bother with the fish. However, if they can kill off our reason for going, that’s a win for them.

So now we have two dink tributaries (Elk and Hood River) deterring our entire system?
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:44 PM   #41
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

College boys, what the heck do they know?
Our fisheries should be run by armchair biologists with advanced degrees in hatchery fish.
And disregard any study that doesn't say hatchery fish are great.
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
College boys, what the heck do they know?
Our fisheries should be run by armchair biologists with advanced degrees in hatchery fish.
And disregard any study that doesn't say hatchery fish are great.



Blowing smoke up peoples a.. is getting ridiculous at times =/
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:35 PM   #43
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

It wasn't a study, it was manipulation of data. A quote from Ray Hilborn, a noted fisheries biologist at the UW. "An advocate knows the answer and looks for evidence to support it. A scientist asks nature how much support there is for a competing hypothesis."

We also call this elimination theory- the conclusion must consider and include mall possibilities that cannot be disproven until new information becomes available.
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:42 PM   #44
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Coastalhounddog View Post
Blowing smoke up peoples a.. is getting ridiculous at times =/

That would be a better title to this thread.
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:58 PM   #45
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
College boys, what the heck do they know?
Our fisheries should be run by armchair biologists with advanced degrees in hatchery fish.
And disregard any study that doesn't say hatchery fish are great.
"College boys"...yeah, they're the ones that run most govt. agencies and make up most of congress and make most of the decisions in running this country. Inspiring! And, I'm guessing anyone calling themselves "freespool" (aka out-of-control) is an armchair biologist with advanced degrees in sport fishing prevention
and arrogance.
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:47 PM   #46
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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"College boys"...yeah, they're the ones that run most govt. agencies and make up most of congress and make most of the decisions in running this country. Inspiring! And, I'm guessing anyone calling themselves "freespool" (aka out-of-control) is an armchair biologist with advanced degrees in sport fishing prevention
and arrogance.

I'm not the flat earther saying the science is wrong.
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Old 10-30-2019, 08:03 PM   #47
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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I'm not the flat earther saying the science is wrong.

But your evasive way of communicating 89% of the time does make me wonder.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:09 PM   #48
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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It wasn't a study, it was manipulation of data. A quote from Ray Hilborn, a noted fisheries biologist at the UW. "An advocate knows the answer and looks for evidence to support it. A scientist asks nature how much support there is for a competing hypothesis."

We also call this elimination theory- the conclusion must consider and include mall possibilities that cannot be disproven until new information becomes available.

30-40 years of studies does not equate to a hill of beans compared to what it took mother nature thousands of years.


Again just plant the seed to harvest and keep things going until habitat is brought into a better state.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:22 PM   #49
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Here is the chart that I have from ODFW on Elk River Fish. It goes to 2010, my error. But notice the linear average for the "wild " fish. It is linear. When the hatchery fish numbers are up, so are the "wild" fish numbers leading one to believe the problem of the Wild fish is not the hatchery fish but external issues that effect the success of both fishes.
It also shows that the total numbers of hatchery fish do not impact the returns of the "wild" fish.
Keep this chart handy when you go to your next ODFW hatchery meeting.
I offer a different, more obvious interpretation of these data. Simply that Wild fish populations are relatively stable. Hatchery populations are boom and bust.

This pattern exists in other rivers, too.

This dichotomy has clear implications for how we should prioritize management to sustainably manage fisheries.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:01 AM   #50
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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If my memory is correct, unclipped hatchery coho are retained in Puget Sound every year. I can't recall the general area but it seems I recall one of the fish counters telling me that is why we can keep them.
I think that story has mutated a bit over time. Due to the recent past's very poor spawning conditions and the ocean Blob non-tribal fishers in Puget Sound have generally been able to retain only clipped Coho the past several years.

Prior to that there were management areas (most) where both clipped and unclipped Coho could be retained.

I hope better conditions and the allowing of unclipped fish back to the rivers will soon bring back those wild fish to numbers which allow their harvest.
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Old 10-31-2019, 06:47 AM   #51
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

Good, what can be excluded is that the hatchery population did not influence the natural spawning fish based on information in this chart. What causes the fluctuation of the hatchery fish is a new question. Unknowns could include the percent of hatchery fish fin clipped, total number of fish released each year, and a host of other questions. But possible extinction of salmon based on this information is not supported.
In this river, the source of the hatchery fish was a creek across from the hatchery. Broodstock has been used since the beginning for each year. 100% fin clipping is only a recent procedure. The differences, if any, cannot be much between hatchery and NS fish. This may not be the case in every river and that is why there needs to be a quantitative approach to this issue.
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Old 10-31-2019, 09:06 AM   #52
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by jagosh View Post
I’ll say it, the NFS has nothing to do with fish, fishing, or restoration. It’s about moving money from donors to lawyers using lawsuits as the means, the secondary function is about control. Who fishes, where, how... at the end of the day our freedom to roam is what they hate the most. If they could control our access to rivers by some other means, they wouldn’t bother with the fish. However, if they can kill off our reason for going, that’s a win for them.
Wow, dude... Where's the black helicopter emoji? The few guys I know of on here who are NFS members also like to fish a lot, and not only w/ fly gear either.

Don't agree w/ a lot of their suits trying to stop hatchery production, but they've also sued dam owners/operators like the Army CoE & PGE for increased spill to help flush smolts downstream and make passage improvements for adults headed up. If you don't think either of those help both wild and hatchery fish, I don't know what else to tell you...
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Old 10-31-2019, 10:02 AM   #53
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Shane Stewart View Post
Simple solutions...
1.Habitat! First and foremost. This includes logging practices.

2.Keep hatchery fish away from mixing with wild fish. Don't say it cannot be done because it was done in the past
3.Increased daily limit on all hatchery fish. Every hatchery fish NOT harvested is wasted money.
4.Close all upper rivers, with a viable wild population, to fishing of any kind from March 31st until Memorial Day weekend.


The link to future sports fishing is wild fish! Wouldn't it make sense to do all we can to enhance and protect them?
You forgot terminating the commercial harvest of chinook salmon on the Pacific Coast. They did it with ducks, geese, elk and deer and it all worked out fine. It is time to do it with the termination of commercial chinook harvest. Just do it!!
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Old 10-31-2019, 10:32 AM   #54
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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You forgot terminating the commercial harvest of chinook salmon on the Pacific Coast. They did it with ducks, geese, elk and deer and it all worked out fine. It is time to do it with the termination of commercial chinook harvest. Just do it!!

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Old 10-31-2019, 10:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by Spinitrode View Post
Wow, dude... Where's the black helicopter emoji? The few guys I know of on here who are NFS members also like to fish a lot, and not only w/ fly gear either.

Don't agree w/ a lot of their suits trying to stop hatchery production, but they've also sued dam owners/operators like the Army CoE & PGE for increased spill to help flush smolts downstream and make passage improvements for adults headed up. If you don't think either of those help both wild and hatchery fish, I don't know what else to tell you...
I’m not wrong but the black helicopter comment is just plain awesome!

For the NFS members on here, your money lines the pockets of lawyers.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:15 AM   #56
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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You forgot terminating the commercial harvest of chinook salmon on the Pacific Coast. They did it with ducks, geese, elk and deer and it all worked out fine. It is time to do it with the termination of commercial chinook harvest. Just do it!!
Duck, geese, deer and elk were never subject to large "hatchery" supplementation to boost their numbers. There numbers were, and still are, enhanced by habitat protection and restoration efforts. Habitat is and always will be the primary factor - it worked with ducks, geese, deer and elk.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:17 AM   #57
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For the NFS members on here, your money lines the pockets of lawyers.
I'm still trying to figure out where all that money we sports put into M81 went... Lawyers maybe?
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:19 AM   #58
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Always been a disturbing subject to me also. It seems pretty hypocritical to get yours then tell me that I can have mine because it is different from your choice.
Some, if not most, are C&R because they personally believe it is ethically the right thing to do and not because they would't like the opportunity to harvest a fish.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:43 AM   #59
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Duck, geese, deer and elk were never subject to large "hatchery" supplementation to boost their numbers. There numbers were, and still are, enhanced by habitat protection and restoration efforts. Habitat is and always will be the primary factor - it worked with ducks, geese, deer and elk.

Jacksalmon want's us to believe the problem is commercial exploitation, but the problem with that position is optics, it's one harvester group pointing the finger at another harvester group.
Jack says he's a lawyer, so I assume he's aware of that fact, so that means something else is pushing his assertions.
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:49 PM   #60
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Default Re: A disturbing new approach to the hatchery fish issue

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Originally Posted by joe_camo View Post
Duck, geese, deer and elk were never subject to large "hatchery" supplementation to boost their numbers. There numbers were, and still are, enhanced by habitat protection and restoration efforts. Habitat is and always will be the primary factor - it worked with ducks, geese, deer and elk.
The state of habitat is what it is for each group, ducks, geese elk and deer versus chinook salmon. What is different is that the former species are not commercially exploited while the latter species is. If you are suggesting that habitat improvement for chinook would help their numbers, I would be in full agreement. If you are suggesting that commercial exploitation of chinook has nothing to do with their dwindling numbers, I would be in full disagreement. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that you would ever argue with a straight face that commercial exploitation of chinook has nothing to do with their dwindling numbers. But, you can argue that if you want.
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