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Old 04-11-2019, 08:22 AM   #1
KingSlew
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Default 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

...

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Old 04-11-2019, 09:43 AM   #2
Dave G
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Lesson: Don't anchor in the Bar.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

that rescue boat on the 3rd one is a sweet boat! doesn't look like anything special (cannot think of the name of those hulls) but they are popular dive harvest boats in that part of the world, and for some reason (i'm sure a long list of reasons) they work REALLY well in really poor conditions.

they will certainly be on my shopping list in a few years when I decide to buy a work boat myself.

my take on bar crossings is a boat with plenty of power, or a really big boat. I want no part of a boat like that yellow one that got lucky at the end... not big enough to take the waves, and too slow to have full control. horsepower gets you a long ways in bad bar conditions. the dive boat I work on is 32', and has 850hp, and we cross a lot of snotty bars, and it's usually more exciting trying to sneak out without eating a big one.... coming in isn't bad, because we have the hp to stay where we need to (in relation to the waves)

I remember one night coming in from crabbing, it was huge swell, and just after low water, and about a half hour before dark and getting worse, we didn't plan on that situation, but the ocean got bad quick that night, so we decided to come in while we had daylight in our favor despite of the tide not being ideal. swell was coming up and the wind was blowing, and that leaves luck at play once it's dark and you cannot pick your spot.

that was a little more exciting than I care for, but it worked out fine.... that boat was fast... for what it was, haha.... it was 11kts, which is scootin' for a 73' boat that draws 12ft. if it's gonna be slow (I consider slow not being able to stay exactly where you need to be and outrun/stay ahead of waves) it needs to be big, if rough bars are part of the equation. if you rely on luck, one day it's gonna run out.

most of those wrecks were like "WTH??!!" what were they doing, and what were they thinking? made no sense.... but I have seen it in person as well. I would be perfectly fine never crossing a dangerous bar again, but of course that's not really in the cards for me.... and I realize luck is not good enough.

the types of places you plan to fish out of should be a very serious consideration when boat shopping. on the ocean, safety has to be #1, if it's not, you're asking for it. there is no feature on any boat worth compromising practical safety
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

I grew up fishing out of Florence and Winchester Bay, but maybe I need to take a hard look at Newport. You guys talk about it a lot.
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Old 04-11-2019, 02:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roosevelt View Post
that rescue boat on the 3rd one is a sweet boat! doesn't look like anything special (cannot think of the name of those hulls) but they are popular dive harvest boats in that part of the world, and for some reason (i'm sure a long list of reasons) they work REALLY well in really poor conditions.

they will certainly be on my shopping list in a few years when I decide to buy a work boat myself.
I'm missing something. How did that rescue boat get the capsized boat back up?

The NZ and Aussie folks are an adventurous lot for sure, much like we were 50 years ago.
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Old 04-11-2019, 02:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

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I'm missing something. How did that rescue boat get the capsized boat back up?

The NZ and Aussie folks are an adventurous lot for sure, much like we were 50 years ago.
I would like to know as well, haha... and yes they are! NZ is high on my vacation list, they seem like a cool culture of folks
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Anyone know the water temps in that area?

That kinda adds a degree of difficulty in our area. Heck it might be kinda fun to bob around in a PFD out at a rough bar.... in warm water.

Cool video, I too was wondering how they got that one boat looking so downright perky again. Must've taken some time.

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Old 04-11-2019, 10:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Whoever wrote the “lessons” failed to state the obvious “and wear a life jacket” & none of the four police were!

CW
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

CCW, good call. if we are crossing a really bad bar (like gold beach in a 8-10ft swell) I wear a life jacket, or if we are heading back in, i'll leave my drysuit on.

I watched one video from that part of the world, and it was a coast guard type boat, and an inflatable, but it was a really cool video. the tide was ebbing, and it was a very ugly bar, and they took a really big wave that ended up killing their power.... they were so well trained, without thought, one of the guys instantly through a drogue off of the bow, the line became taught quickly, and that kept their bow oriented into the waves and bought them the time they needed to get the motor fired back up and out of danger.... it was a cool video
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:04 AM   #10
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

I've used two of those clips in my Bar Crossing seminars at the Salt Water Sportsman's Show over the past few years. The main point is to stay on the back side of a wave and follow it in. Never get on the front (shoreward) side since you will end up surfing, which is disastrous, as shown in the videos. In the first clip, neither the captain nor crew had any situational awareness of the wave coming up behind them. Had they come in with more speed, on the back (seaward) side of a wave, they would have been fine.

The clip that starts at 3:00 is one of my favorites. You can see the captain slow down once he is inside the jetty, probably because he thinks he made it in safely. Again, no situational awareness of the wave building behind him. Like on the first clip, had he come in faster on the back of a wave, he would have been fine.

But it's important to note that most of us should never find ourselves on breaking bars like that. If you do, consider you've made an error in planning and judgement. The whole point is to avoid such situations in the first place. Proper planning the night before, plus on-the-water evaluation, should keep you out of those situations. That said, it's still essential to know how to cross a bad bar, since unexpected things happen on the ocean.

Good post and topic
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:42 AM   #11
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Sometimes a double ender is just a smidge better in following seas. But not always.
All the advice above still stands as great advice.
The old boat I worked on was a double ender, but a slow one. And I felt her get squirrely on us a few times, she could get slapped sideways pretty easily I imagine, but it never happened.
Riding on the backs of those waves could be a real rush at times.
Just my .
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

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Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I've used two of those clips in my Bar Crossing seminars at the Salt Water Sportsman's Show over the past few years. The main point is to stay on the back side of a wave and follow it in. Never get on the front (shoreward) side since you will end up surfing, which is disastrous, as shown in the videos. In the first clip, neither the captain nor crew had any situational awareness of the wave coming up behind them. Had they come in with more speed, on the back (seaward) side of a wave, they would have been fine.

The clip that starts at 3:00 is one of my favorites. You can see the captain slow down once he is inside the jetty, probably because he thinks he made it in safely. Again, no situational awareness of the wave building behind him. Like on the first clip, had he come in faster on the back of a wave, he would have been fine.

But it's important to note that most of us should never find ourselves on breaking bars like that. If you do, consider you've made an error in planning and judgement. The whole point is to avoid such situations in the first place. Proper planning the night before, plus on-the-water evaluation, should keep you out of those situations. That said, it's still essential to know how to cross a bad bar, since unexpected things happen on the ocean.

Good post and topic
This is where people get in trouble on the Columbia also. Although some skill and the proper boat allows some to get away with crossing it in these conditions, it's a different beast when those waves may be encountered for miles instead of a couple hundred yards like most bars. And with multiple current directions the waves are almost impossible to ride the back for a length of time as you'll get mixing and the wave doubles or dies and you've lost the backside you were on.

Best is to avoid any bar like this but especially the Columbia on an outgoing that meets any ocean swell like Charles says. The striper I run most of the time doesn't have the power to catch up to the next wave when the one you're following dies so it's not too fun when the next one catches up in a boat that bow steers to begin with

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Old 04-12-2019, 09:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

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Originally Posted by Quiet Riot View Post
This is where people get in trouble on the Columbia also. Although some skill and the proper boat allows some to get away with crossing it in these conditions, it's a different beast when those waves may be encountered for miles instead of a couple hundred yards like most bars. And with multiple current directions the waves are almost impossible to ride the back for a length of time as you'll get mixing and the wave doubles or dies and you've lost the backside you were on.

Best is to avoid any bar like this but especially the Columbia on an outgoing that meets any ocean swell like Charles says. The striper I run most of the time doesn't have the power to catch up to the next wave when the one you're following dies so it's not too fun when the next one catches up in a boat that bow steers to begin with

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Excellent advise.


Speed control is paramount in these situations. One must maintain enough speed to stay on the back side yet not to much speed which will cause the vessel to over run and crossover to the face of the wave.


USCG Lt Scott McGrew former Commander of Cape D spoke at the Illwaco Tuna Club a few years back. Scott was a former surfman before he was promoted up the ranks. He spent a lot of time under difficult conditions on the CR Bar. He maintained one of the key elements to a safe bar crossing was speed control. It wasn't about going fast is was about control as in neither too fast nor too slow. Of course he recommended against fighting the bar on a strong ebb, and being aware of swell height.
I remember and still use the advise and tactics he passed along.


He used to post here on the Salty Dogs and was a great source of salty knowledge, and boat handling. I hope the Coast Guard is treating him well.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Riot View Post
This is where people get in trouble on the Columbia also. Although some skill and the proper boat allows some to get away with crossing it in these conditions, it's a different beast when those waves may be encountered for miles instead of a couple hundred yards like most bars. And with multiple current directions the waves are almost impossible to ride the back for a length of time as you'll get mixing and the wave doubles or dies and you've lost the backside you were on.

Best is to avoid any bar like this but especially the Columbia on an outgoing that meets any ocean swell like Charles says. The striper I run most of the time doesn't have the power to catch up to the next wave when the one you're following dies so it's not too fun when the next one catches up in a boat that bow steers to begin with

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Same issue at times with the Garibaldi bar. Prevailing wave set out of the northwest that meets a secondary out of the southwest. Somewhere about the middle of the bar it meets, combines and then washes out into the trough of the next wave set. Lot of bubbly water with reduced traction. There will be times you get a snotty bar coming in regardless of how well you plan and totally agree with speed control and ample power.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

"The ocean is the largest court in the world, and all decisions are final."

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Old 04-18-2019, 04:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Lets discuss boat/situation #2 a bit. That hull design most resembles mine and that sure went down quickly... I have no idea why they slowed down when they did initially (intentional?), nor do I know what their trim (motor and/or tab) situation was, but lets just say me or one of us finds ourselves in the same situation starting at about 3:26 in the video clip. Is it too late at that point?, or is there a response that could have turned this into a close call instead of a broaching? Seems like more power at that point would only make the situation worse... Maybe if you already had trim tabs all the way up and the motor trimmed high enough a carefully timed burst of throttle could have lifted the bow? But probably not... What about a well timed burst of reverse throttle as the swell started to push the stern past the bow?

Not that it's a situation anyone intends to get into, but having a plan for all contingencies is never a bad idea. Experience has taught me that with my deep-V hull, any trim tab at all on a following sea is a bad idea, and that any motor trim beyond neutral on an incoming bar crossing can be downright dangerous. The hull already has an tendency to bow steer/stuff the bow, tab or motor trim only aggravates the tendency.

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Old 04-19-2019, 06:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymart View Post
Lets discuss boat/situation #2 a bit. That hull design most resembles mine and that sure went down quickly... I have no idea why they slowed down when they did initially (intentional?), nor do I know what their trim (motor and/or tab) situation was, but lets just say me or one of us finds ourselves in the same situation starting at about 3:26 in the video clip. Is it too late at that point?, or is there a response that could have turned this into a close call instead of a broaching? Seems like more power at that point would only make the situation worse... Maybe if you already had trim tabs all the way up and the motor trimmed high enough a carefully timed burst of throttle could have lifted the bow? But probably not... What about a well timed burst of reverse throttle as the swell started to push the stern past the bow?

Not that it's a situation anyone intends to get into, but having a plan for all contingencies is never a bad idea. Experience has taught me that with my deep-V hull, any trim tab at all on a following sea is a bad idea, and that any motor trim beyond neutral on an incoming bar crossing can be downright dangerous. The hull already has an tendency to bow steer/stuff the bow, tab or motor trim only aggravates the tendency.

Good questions. To further the discussion look at this video which shows the process unfolding in more detail.



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Old 04-19-2019, 07:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

The rest of the story...

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Old 04-19-2019, 07:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Just a couple of thing that might have helped this fellow.


One, when operating the boat you have to become part of the boat and feel it as it moves. The moment the boat starts to verve to port add power and counter steer to starboard only putting in enough steering input to bring the bow about. Steering input and power needs to happen the moment one feels the stern start to come around. It is similar to driving a car on ice but with added dimensions.


Key to this is having your props in the water. The lower the bow goes the higher the stern rises. If the stern rises to high one will lose the ability to steer. Rymart is correct regarding trim tabs, they must be up not down in this kind of water. They add a lot of unwanted surface area for the wave to push on.


Not sure if it was inattention or lack of experience but it seemed there as a lack of awareness and failure to take quick at the right time to correct the movement of the boat.


In these water the pilot need to be completely focused on the task. No distractions and feel the movement of the boat.


Yes staying on the back side of the wave would be optimum position as Little Buck points out.
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Old 04-19-2019, 08:34 AM   #20
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A few years ago I was coming into Bandon in a buddies 26 footer. Usually a strong boat with no problem crossing the Coquille river bar. I guess we got lazy after a long day of tuna fishing. Hit the bar at ebb. Didn't look too bad but the troughs were narrow and stacking. We went off the top and a breaker caught us from behind and spun us sideways and the deep vee buried the bow. Jerked us around like a tin can. We regained control and just looked at each other. We both were experienced enough to know what had happened.
My advice would be to ride the back of the incomer , glance back at the stern to see what's coming from the back. If you see a wave closing, speed up, but don't go off the top of the one your riding. Wait for your roller to peter out then goose the motor to speed up to the next riser. Never go off the top or let one catch you from behind. It takes some throttle control and concentration. I think it may be easier in a smaller boat with quick acceleration potential. Power is your friend here. My Thanks for the video. Good stuff on what not to do.

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Old 04-19-2019, 09:35 AM   #21
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

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A few years ago I was coming into Bandon in a buddies 26 footer. Usually a strong boat with no problem crossing the Coquille river bar. I guess we got lazy after a long day of tuna fishing. Hit the bar at ebb. Didn't look too bad but the troughs were narrow and stacking. We went off the top and a breaker caught us from behind and spun us sideways and the deep vee buried the bow. Jerked us around like a tin can. We regained control and just looked at each other. We both were experienced enough to know what had happened.
My advice would be to ride the back of the incomer , glance back at the stern to see what's coming from the back. If you see a wave closing, speed up, but don't go off the top of the one your riding. Wait for your roller to peter out then goose the motor to speed up to the next riser. Never go off the top or let one catch you from behind. It takes some throttle control and concentration. I think it may be easier in a smaller boat with quick acceleration potential. Power is your friend here. My Thanks for the video. Good stuff on what not to do.
Ditto. Well put...
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Viewing the second video slowly one can see the pilot/captain is distracted and not looking forward at the critical point. His head is turned to port and looking down. I do not think he knew he was about to loose it. Had he keep his eyes forward perhaps he would of had better situational awareness, and taken the appropriate action.


Riding the back of the wave as demonstrated by the last boat coming in on the second video is the safe position. My response was addressing Rymarts question on the "what if" you end up on the face of a wave. Not getting into that position by paying attention is always a good plan.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Few things scarier than an under powered boat on a sporty bar.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

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Viewing the second video slowly one can see the pilot/captain is distracted and not looking forward at the critical point. His head is turned to port and looking down. I do not think he knew he was about to loose it. Had he keep his eyes forward perhaps he would of had better situational awareness, and taken the appropriate action.


Riding the back of the wave as demonstrated by the last boat coming in on the second video is they safe position. My response was addressing Rymarts question on the "what if" you end up on the face of a wave. Not getting into that position by paying attention is always a good plan.
That last boat that made the good crossing is the same one that aborted his previous attempt. There is a time to act and it's always better to have the breaking wave on your bow instead of your stern which is usually a really bad deal. He clearly was paying attention, knew to abort and wait for a better opportunity.
Instead of just steaming down the channel, one should seek the quieter water that's usually present. Of course that means you need to be able to recognize it and that takes experience and knowledge.
Seasoned mariners can get themselves into predicaments, but the majority of wrecks and accidents happen to neophytes...
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Great Job on the reminders and lessons learned here Gentlemen...............
Seems like perfect timing Mr. KingSlew.
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Old 04-19-2019, 02:45 PM   #26
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

When I am in a following seas situation, I pretty much bark at my crew that it is one person's job to watch the stern - and only the stern. I want one crew member covering our 'behind' - literally.

These are great videos to demonstrate how a following sea will broach a boat - and just how important it is to
1) Know what is happening at your stern.
2) Have enough power to be able to push through when wave sets disappear or combine in spite of your best efforts to stay on the back side.
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

I find it interesting how long the first boat in the original video was able to bob around in the midst of the breakers before it finally got rolled, yet how quickly it almost went down when it was overtaken by a breaker while under power. Would he have been better off to just cut power before he was overtaken (assuming he was unable to outrun the breaker)? Then get back on the throttle before the next one overtook him...

I definitely try to stay on the back side of swells and not get overtaken. And hesitate to cross the swells when on anything but an ideal bar crossing. I usually ask everyone to watch behind us as we come in on a less-than-ideal bar, but don't always trust the that they know what to look for. We've crossed a few sketchy bars, all with minimal drama so far, even in the dark ...

What worries me with my deep-V Hull is theres a sluggish area between hull speed and plane (somewhere in the range of 6 kts - 16kts), where my vessel isn't always as responsive as I'd like it to be. We've had scenarios where we couldn't run fast enough to stay on plane without overtaking the swell ahead of us, but would fall off plane if I cut throttle. Once that happened, the next swell would be on us very quickly. We'd be hard on the throttle, bogging down a bit, trying to climb back up on plane before being overtaken. Although more trim (especially tabs) would help us plan faster and avoid the following swell, it could be catastrophic to be caught by the following swell/breaker in that trim configuration (as the extra trim would force our bow to stuff hard and stop momentum at the front of the boat, whilst the rear of the boat was still being powered and surfed)...

Luckily it seems that the long period swells that really stack up into breakers, are also traveling a bit faster. We've had some success in this situation either zig-zagging to maintain speed but not overtake the swell, or running up the back of the swell in front of us just enough to bleed off some speed but not enough to pass it... This ends up being a balancing act with regards to throttle control, as it is easy to still fall off plane or to have the swell unexpectedly roll underneath you in that position. Always learning & most days I enjoy the challenge.

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Old 04-19-2019, 03:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Watch your 6.
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Old 04-19-2019, 04:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: 10 minutes worth of what can happen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymart View Post
I find it interesting how long the first boat in the original video was able to bob around in the midst of the breakers before it finally got rolled, yet how quickly it almost went down when it was overtaken by a breaker while under power. Would he have been better off to just cut power before he was overtaken (assuming he was unable to outrun the breaker)? Then get back on the throttle before the next one overtook him...

I definitely try to stay on the back side of swells and not get overtaken. And hesitate to cross the swells when on anything but an ideal bar crossing. I usually ask everyone to watch behind us as we come in on a less-than-ideal bar, but don't always trust the that they know what to look for. We've crossed a few sketchy bars, all with minimal drama so far, even in the dark ...

What worries me with my deep-V Hull is theres a sluggish area between hull speed and plane (somewhere in the range of 6 kts - 16kts), where my vessel isn't always as responsive as I'd like it to be. We've had scenarios where we couldn't run fast enough to stay on plane without overtaking the swell ahead of us, but would fall off plane if I cut throttle. Once that happened, the next swell would be on us very quickly. We'd be hard on the throttle, bogging down a bit, trying to climb back up on plane before being overtaken. Although more trim (especially tabs) would help us plan faster and avoid the following swell, it could be catastrophic to be caught by the following swell/breaker in that trim configuration (as the extra trim would force our bow to stuff hard and stop momentum at the front of the boat, whilst the rear of the boat was still being powered and surfed)...

Luckily it seems that the long period swells that really stack up into breakers, are also traveling a bit faster. We've had some success in this situation either zig-zagging to maintain speed but not overtake the swell, or running up the back of the swell in front of us just enough to bleed off some speed but not enough to pass it... This ends up being a balancing act with regards to throttle control, as it is easy to still fall off plane or to have the swell unexpectedly roll underneath you in that position. Always learning & most days I enjoy the challenge.
The long duration swell days also have better lulls between sets, though the big sets look intimidating on the approach, if you wait outside, on big interval swell, you can generally find a pretty mellow window to run in on
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