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Old 06-01-2020, 07:12 AM   #61
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Originally Posted by MattPark View Post
A few short years ago, GPH was all anyone had to work with. Reliable GPS didn't exist. That has changed.

I'd be willing to bet most here know what they are burning at any given moment. I don't have the latest electronics, but they still show instant GPH, MPG, total fuel burned, fuel remaining, etc.

MPG is simple mathematical equation using GPH (MPH/GPH). MPG does not become irrelevant as conditions change, it changes along with it. Knowing what that number is can help you strike the best balance between comfort and fuel efficiency. GPH doesn't stay constant when conditions change and you speed up or slow down. Keeping track of MPG each trip gives a guy a good idea of range in the situations that he commonly encounters. You can't have MPG without GPH, but that doesn't make it any less useful.
Agreed. GPH means nothing to me without SOG so I can calculate MPG.

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Old 06-01-2020, 07:50 AM   #62
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

so you decided to go chase tuna. you have just run for 2 hours, how much fuel have you burned?? throttle up and down but you are wondering about fuel remaining and whether or not you can make it back to port. think your mpg is going to help out?? and your GPS has not much to do with fuel burn either.

be safe out there even if you didn't take the time to figure this out.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:16 AM   #63
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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so you decided to go chase tuna. you have just run for 2 hours, how much fuel have you burned?? throttle up and down but you are wondering about fuel remaining and whether or not you can make it back to port. think your mpg is going to help out?? and your GPS has not much to do with fuel burn either.

be safe out there even if you didn't take the time to figure this out.
17.36 gallons burned, with 72.64 gallons remaining, but thanks for checking.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:04 AM   #64
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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so you decided to go chase tuna. you have just run for 2 hours, how much fuel have you burned?? throttle up and down but you are wondering about fuel remaining and whether or not you can make it back to port. think your mpg is going to help out?? and your GPS has not much to do with fuel burn either.

be safe out there even if you didn't take the time to figure this out.
I average 4MPG-4.5MPG. One tuna trip last year we went 145 miles, burned ~33 gallons, ~19 gallons still in the tank. Yep, MPG is the most useful number. GPH don't help me much.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:21 AM   #65
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Twins with SEPERATE FUEL AND ELECTRICAL are the most secure arrangement for ocean fishing. I'd guess that you get close to the same power out of either set up, because of lower unit drag, but a main engine, even if it's one of two, is far superior to a kicker for getting home. And, quiet often, people just hook their kicker to the same fuel and electrical. NOT GOOD! You never want a single point of failure to leave you stranded. its a BIG ocean


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What are the pro's and cons of these two motor combinations. Would be attached to a Hewescraft ocean pro 24ft?
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:31 AM   #66
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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17.36 gallons burned, with 72.64 gallons remaining, but thanks for checking.
glad you understand how to manage your fuel supply.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:54 AM   #67
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I'm truly confused how gallons per hour could work. On a flat ocean is one thing but on and off the throttle is another. It seems it would very quit a bit at least on my Honda 250 it does. You could change burn rates a significant amount by throttling up and down. My honda 250 at different rates per the chart.

3k rpm 3.9 gph
3500 = 5.2
4 k = 7.4
4500= 10.9
All stick to mpg for simplicity.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:34 AM   #68
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

As noted before... GPH burned has been around forever as a way to ball park fuel consumption in boats, including really big boats that go really slow and would measure MPG in gallons per mile. MPG in marine use is relatively new, and has only really been possible since the advent of very accurate GPS.

To why good skippers still use both... GPH is showing you your rate of fuel burn, MPG is showing you the amount of fuel you are consuming to go 1 mile. One is a real-time instant readout of how efficiently your engine is using fuel, the other is a coarser measurement of fuel consumed over distance.

I set my engine's multi-function tach/display to show me engine trim % and GPH I am burning. From that, I can adjust my engine trim, trim tabs, and RPM's to get the best fuel burn rate in the current sea conditions and comfortable cruising speed in real time. That allows me to burn less fuel while maintaining the same speed/ride comfort.

MPG is better for tracking overall fuel consumption and how much fuel I have remaining, and for showing total fuel consumed at the end of the day. I set up my chart plotter to display this. You can use MPG to estimate real time efficiency, but it is a coarser measurement.

Learn how to use both, but it is easier for people who are used to cars and trucks to understand MPG.
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:41 PM   #69
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Best thing I’ve installed is a fuel flow sensor. No more guessing about how much gas I’m burning, it all shows in real time.


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Old 06-02-2020, 08:04 AM   #70
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Originally Posted by Brine Shrimp View Post

What am I missing?
You aren't missing anything at all. Old school seems to think just because they used GPH primarily back in the day, it's the only way

Matt Park said it well just above. MPG does the job quite well. Better in fact because you don't have to keep calculating MPG in your head!

My boat is super consistent with MPG. In Rough conditions it gets 1.75 mpg and on a nice ocean over 25 mph or so, it gets 2 mpg. I always error on the side of caution and use 1.75. Done, now I know my range. Heck, I don't even need to calculate it because Garmin does! And if I lose all those electronics, I know where I was at when I lost them and simply head home. Because I always practice the rule of thirds, I know I am pretty safe on fuel.

Stick with what works for you. MPG works better for me because I'm used to it and I know the boat based on that figure.

(All of this assumes you have fuel flow plumbed from your engines into your GPS of course, or a fuel flow sensor in your line)

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Old 06-02-2020, 01:18 PM   #71
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

You want the single 300 with the 240 Alaskan. In 2009 I bought a new 220 OP with a F150 Yamaha due to fuel economy (up to 4 mpg). At the time gas in Alaska was almost $6/gal so fuel economy was my priority. But when it came to actually being out on the water I wanted a faster cruise. I kicked myself for getting the F150 vs the 225hp. At that time the 220 OP was only rated for 225hp vs the new model 250hp. The boat performed just fine with the F150, but more HP would have meant a faster cruise speed. Today I have a 26' ACB with twin 150 outboards. But it is a commercial tour boat. Maintenance is 2x and the fuel economy isn't as good as a single 300, but that isn't my main concern as a tour operator. If I owned the ACB as a personal boat it would have a single. Get a single Yamaha 225 (but suggest the 300) and get a 25 EFI Yamaha Hight Thrust kicker, not a 9.9 HT. For a personal boat half the maintenance costs and slightly better fuel economy is the way to go. I am considering a Hewescraft Alaskan with a Yamaha 425 XTO and a 25 HT kicker.

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Old 06-02-2020, 04:31 PM   #72
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threeweight View Post
As noted before... GPH burned has been around forever as a way to ball park fuel consumption in boats, including really big boats that go really slow and would measure MPG in gallons per mile. MPG in marine use is relatively new, and has only really been possible since the advent of very accurate GPS.

To why good skippers still use both... GPH is showing you your rate of fuel burn, MPG is showing you the amount of fuel you are consuming to go 1 mile. One is a real-time instant readout of how efficiently your engine is using fuel, the other is a coarser measurement of fuel consumed over distance.

I set my engine's multi-function tach/display to show me engine trim % and GPH I am burning. From that, I can adjust my engine trim, trim tabs, and RPM's to get the best fuel burn rate in the current sea conditions and comfortable cruising speed in real time. That allows me to burn less fuel while maintaining the same speed/ride comfort.

MPG is better for tracking overall fuel consumption and how much fuel I have remaining, and for showing total fuel consumed at the end of the day. I set up my chart plotter to display this. You can use MPG to estimate real time efficiency, but it is a coarser measurement.

Learn how to use both, but it is easier for people who are used to cars and trucks to understand MPG.
Actually, if you could get your multifunction display to show instantaneous MPG you'd be better off. There is no better measure of fuel economy than MPG. GHP is an indirect measure of efficiency because there's no GPS data.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:06 PM   #73
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Actually, if you could get your multifunction display to show instantaneous MPG you'd be better off. There is no better measure of fuel economy than MPG. GHP is an indirect measure of efficiency because there's no GPS data.
Re-read my post. My multi-function gauge shows GPH and trim % at the same time, and chart plotter tracks estimated MPG and total fuel consumed per trip. You should learn how to use both, and the differences between the two.

There is no such thing as instantaneous MPG. MPG is an estimate of fuel that will be consumed over distance based on your current speed and rate of consumption. The computer in your plotter calculates it based on the same data that is displayed when you set your gauges or plotter to GPH. MPG is the best way to measure total fuel consumed, and to project your remaining rrange, especially to people mostly familiar with how fuel economy is estimated for cars and trucks.

But you can't estimate MPG without first knowing your rate of fuel consumption, generally measured in gallons per hour.

GPH is also a finer unit of measurement, particularly on big boats that might only get 1.5 MPG, or even less. A skipper might make trim tab adjustments on such a boat and never see any change in his MPG display, and assume that the tabs make no difference. If he had a way of displaying his fuel burn in GPH, he would see those smaller increments of improvement.

I totally agree that MPG is easier for people to understand.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:43 PM   #74
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Originally Posted by Threeweight View Post
Re-read my post. My multi-function gauge shows GPH and trim % at the same time, and chart plotter tracks estimated MPG and total fuel consumed per trip. You should learn how to use both, and the differences between the two.

There is no such thing as instantaneous MPG. MPG is an estimate of fuel that will be consumed over distance based on your current speed and rate of consumption. The computer in your plotter calculates it based on the same data that is displayed when you set your gauges or plotter to GPH. MPG is the best way to measure total fuel consumed, and to project your remaining rrange, especially to people mostly familiar with how fuel economy is estimated for cars and trucks.

But you can't estimate MPG without first knowing your rate of fuel consumption, generally measured in gallons per hour.

GPH is also a finer unit of measurement, particularly on big boats that might only get 1.5 MPG, or even less. A skipper might make trim tab adjustments on such a boat and never see any change in his MPG display, and assume that the tabs make no difference. If he had a way of displaying his fuel burn in GPH, he would see those smaller increments of improvement.

I totally agree that MPG is easier for people to understand.
I read your post. I have an in-line fuel flow meter for my Lowrance, but it's not as accurate as my Mercury Smart Craft fuel flow meter. In fact, it's way off at idle, and will read up to 2GPH. The Mercury gauge doesn't talk to my MFD, so has no gps data. If it did, it would be able to display a very accurate MPG. And yes, MPG can be updated very frequently as it's just calculated from GPH and MPH. One can use MPG to adjust trim, which I do from my MFD.
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Old 06-03-2020, 05:27 AM   #75
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

When I upgraded to a 250 V-Max the dealer Y-Marine upgraded the engine to include all sensors into the nmea2000 and to my Garmin MFD. The engine data screen has all the fuel burn numbers u could ever want pulse, engine temp, engine water pressure, oil pressure, fuel pressure and rpm. Too much data for me to track when running but nice if the engine starts acting up. If your getting one these motors you need to ask the dealer to include all sensors.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:37 PM   #76
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Single, there was a time for twins but that time has passed. Single and a big kicker is better for reliability.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:58 PM   #77
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Couple questions... so as far as a "big" kicker... as a backup propulsion motor, what's a reasonable hull speed to hope for? More than 5-6 knots? When using a small motor (9.9, 15, 25 etc) to push a big boat home from way out on the pond when the main quits, is it reasonable to expect a modern 4S kicker to run at full throttle continuously?
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:35 PM   #78
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Couple questions... so as far as a "big" kicker... as a backup propulsion motor, what's a reasonable hull speed to hope for? More than 5-6 knots? When using a small motor (9.9, 15, 25 etc) to push a big boat home from way out on the pond when the main quits, is it reasonable to expect a modern 4S kicker to run at full throttle continuously?
You will only use about 3/4 throttle, the last 1/4 never seems to change speed. I think they can run for hours like this.

Both my boats with a 15hp 2001 2 stroke Johnson with 4 blade prop. in the ocean can go about 5mph (21' starcraft, 27' Tolman current boat) both boats are light with shallow draft.
I tried a 25hp 2 stroke johnson, it would go 7 mph on the starcraft, for sure had better control.
I built the Tolman transom for a larger kicker motor, planning a 25hp, maybe a 40hp (not sure it will fit) the 40 is only 55lbs heavier. I priced motors today. the 40hp is only 1,800 more. Honda's. my boat is shallow draft and does not have a significant point where it plows water vs. planes. Each boats going to be different. only about 5,500lb's wet

How big of boat do you have and what's it's weight
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:19 PM   #79
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Me? 20 foot modern aluminum windshield boat. Don't know the weight offhand. I have a 9.9 hi-thrust kicker. It moves the boat ok. Seems like 5-6 knots on the GPS when I've looked. I'm more wrapping my brain around the notion that if indeed it's a backup propulsion motor, then whaddaya got... does it get you home from 20 miles out? 30? Full or nearly full throttle for 4-5 hours straight.
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:53 PM   #80
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

A "big" kicker won't push hull speed up all that much, maybe a couple mph, which can be significant. What the bigger motor and prop can do is help maintain speed on the uphill part of swells, and , depending on superstructure, can help greatly to maintain steerage and control in adverse wind conditions.

Unlike many boats that have keels and rudders, out boats are steered mostly by pushing the stern sideways. whenever the motor is cranked to the side, forward thrust is reduced. Significant wind from ahead and the motor cranked can reduce progress of the forward type to zero. With the bow off the wind, the boat goes sideways until the bow comes into the wind. Depending on thrust, it may or may not be able to maintain steerage and/or forward progress.

More power and thrust can solve all that, with ample for staying at hull speed while cranked and thrusting at a 45 degree angle, and enough sideways thrust to keep the bow pointed where you need it.

On a perfect, calm day, that 9.9 on that 24' cabin boat will do just fine. Add some swell, 15 kts of breeze at 30 degrees off the bow, and(in my opinion) the same boat with a 25 will enjoy a big advantage.

Others will certainly disagree, especially those who have never even taken a few minutes of their time to shut down their main, fire up the kicker on a breezy day to learn just what their capabilities really are.
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:57 PM   #81
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Not to diminish the great discussion generated, but, it would be interesting to plot out how often threads that get to two full pages actually answer the op’s question. I think the answer is “neither, get twin 150’s”

Did I get that right?
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:12 PM   #82
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Me? 20 foot modern aluminum windshield boat. Don't know the weight offhand. I have a 9.9 hi-thrust kicker. It moves the boat ok. Seems like 5-6 knots on the GPS when I've looked. I'm more wrapping my brain around the notion that if indeed it's a backup propulsion motor, then whaddaya got... does it get you home from 20 miles out? 30? Full or nearly full throttle for 4-5 hours straight.
Jeff, your 20 ft windshield boat will be fine, or at least better off than any boat with more superstructure...You have 6 hp for hull speed and 4 more to steer with. More than most boats....And yep, it will get you back home. If it doesn't, THEN call for help. Again, some, perhaps many will disagree, but for some of us, there is a measure of satisfaction and perhaps even pride in being self sufficient.
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:33 AM   #83
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Evens View Post
A "big" kicker won't push hull speed up all that much, maybe a couple mph, which can be significant. What the bigger motor and prop can do is help maintain speed on the uphill part of swells, and , depending on superstructure, can help greatly to maintain steerage and control in adverse wind conditions.

Unlike many boats that have keels and rudders, out boats are steered mostly by pushing the stern sideways. whenever the motor is cranked to the side, forward thrust is reduced. Significant wind from ahead and the motor cranked can reduce progress of the forward type to zero. With the bow off the wind, the boat goes sideways until the bow comes into the wind. Depending on thrust, it may or may not be able to maintain steerage and/or forward progress.

More power and thrust can solve all that, with ample for staying at hull speed while cranked and thrusting at a 45 degree angle, and enough sideways thrust to keep the bow pointed where you need it.

On a perfect, calm day, that 9.9 on that 24' cabin boat will do just fine. Add some swell, 15 kts of breeze at 30 degrees off the bow, and(in my opinion) the same boat with a 25 will enjoy a big advantage.

Others will certainly disagree, especially those who have never even taken a few minutes of their time to shut down their main, fire up the kicker on a breezy day to learn just what their capabilities really are.

When you're looking at kickers for anything other than trolling at low speed, the gearing and prop make a big difference, too. Unless you've selected and outfitted the kicker for that role, it's unlikely that you'll be able to reach high enough RPM to harness all that extra power that your hanging off the back of your boat. I believe Quiet Riot referred to this earlier in reference to attempting to plane a hull on one of two twins--if you do manage to spin the engine up high enough, you're likely to burn a hole in the ocean rather than go faster.

More to the recent points above, if you have a Yami High-Thrust 9.9, it may actually perform better than a higher HP kicker because it's actually able to attain higher RPM without cavitation because of the gearing and prop design.

I've only run one boat in my lifetime that performed well if you lost a main, and it was a State Trooper patrol skiff. That was a 5.8m Naiad center console with twin 150s. It would plane easily and top out at about 38kt with one engine lifted. We don't fish in boats like that.

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Old 06-04-2020, 09:28 AM   #84
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Before I bought Reel Boy I was ******' my little ride, the 16' Sea Runner. I bought a regular (not high thrust) Yamaha 9.9 for it. Now that was fun. I had it in the ocean at least 5-6 times set up like that. It was awesome. Off Depoe, it was all I used to relocate for new drifts. It would just about plane that light hull.

Reel Boy came with hi thrust 9.9 (which I almost destroyed in a fit of d'oh) and while I've been
impressed at how well it moves the much bigger boat around, I'd hate to have to come home from the Rockpile using it. Going back to the small boat, one day a buddy and I trolled well south of Depoe for salmon. The afternoon wind kicked up from the NW... I'm not sure that 9.9 would've gotten us home that day, against the wind and currents. To Joe's point, we could maintain steerage and position but that seemed to be about it!

Anyway don't want to hijack the thread, but given the debate about twins vs. a single with a kicker as backup, does seem at least a bit on topic.
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:23 PM   #85
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckykast View Post
not to diminish the great discussion generated, but, it would be interesting to plot out how often threads that get to two full pages actually answer the op’s question. I think the answer is “neither, get twin 150’s”

did i get that right?
yep!
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:34 PM   #86
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

This question I posted for my coworker who isn't an ifish member. Thanks for all the input, from everyone.
After a lot of consideration he ordered 24 OP, with a yamaha 250 and a 9.9. With the autopilot on the main motor, and radar. I guess we will see how it does.
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Old 06-04-2020, 07:53 PM   #87
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

He should've got twin 9.9's. We were just getting to that.
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:29 AM   #88
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffO View Post
Couple questions... so as far as a "big" kicker... as a backup propulsion motor, what's a reasonable hull speed to hope for? More than 5-6 knots? When using a small motor (9.9, 15, 25 etc) to push a big boat home from way out on the pond when the main quits, is it reasonable to expect a modern 4S kicker to run at full throttle continuously?

Lets compare running that kicker at 100% to our yard tractors. I run a 2 cylinder 18 hp at full throttle for at least 3 hours with a short break for fuel. It has a lot of hours doing this and seems to run just fine, burns no oil and I would expect hundreds of more hours from that engine. Most industrial equipment such as chippers run under constant load designed to operate at maximum rpm. Our little kickers are no different and likely will die not from use but lack thereof by corrosion.
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Old 06-05-2020, 07:10 AM   #89
Chukarhead
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

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Originally Posted by Hook'm&Book'm View Post
This question I posted for my coworker who isn't an ifish member. Thanks for all the input, from everyone.
After a lot of consideration he ordered 24 OP, with a yamaha 250 and a 9.9. With the autopilot on the main motor, and radar. I guess we will see how it does.

Huge mistake. When he figures that out (but before he launches it), tell him to call me. I'll give him a fair price for it.
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Old 06-06-2020, 09:31 PM   #90
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Default Re: Twin 115's or a single 225?

I agree, huge mistake. He should have gotten a Honda 250 instead


Gave my OP 22 a shakedown run on the river yesterday, mostly to burn off some old gas and play with new electronics. Reminded me how much I love the boat. He's going to love that 24'.
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