Broodstock Halibut - very cool project - www.ifish.net
Leave no Dog Behind

Go Back   www.ifish.net > Ifish Fishing and Hunting > The Salty Dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-06-2019, 10:10 AM   #1
jzell
Ifish Nate
 
jzell's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: NE Portland
Posts: 2,936
Default Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

http://www.ccacalifornia.org/cca-cal...enile-halibut/

-jz

__________________
Get involved in a Sportfishing organization and remember that YOUR involvement is more than just paying an annual membership fee.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."

Life Member of CCA - Oregon - Portland Metro Chapter
jzell is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-06-2019, 11:36 AM   #2
Fishfeet
King Salmon
 
Fishfeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sublimity (sublime city).
Posts: 12,859
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Cool. I used to fish and sail in Mission bay.
Back to fishing I guess.
__________________
Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance!
Fishfeet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 12:02 PM   #3
Dave G
King Lingcod
 
Dave G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Beach, Owner/Operator of the Kalena
Posts: 44,992
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

That's cool!!!
__________________
If it can't be Salmon, I'll take Halibut!!!

Dave G is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-06-2019, 01:32 PM   #4
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,214
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Nice

I hope the White Seabass hatcheries keep rolling too!
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 11:54 AM   #5
Simon Peter
Tuna!
 
Simon Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Albany, Oregon
Posts: 1,385
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Oh if we could just get people back on the hatchery programs! Broodstock produces such a great spawn and would help bring numbers on some of these fisheries back to great levels to fish.

Nice job CCA-Southern Cal! Way to lead!
__________________
Simon Peter said to them, I am going fishing. John 21:3

25' Defiance - "JIGSTOP"
Simon Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 09:28 PM   #6
buzz11
Coho
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 51
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

It surely isn't going to hurt.
buzz11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 09:20 AM   #7
Bait O Eggs
King Salmon
 
Bait O Eggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Amity
Posts: 13,096
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Wont be long and you will only be able to keep fin clipped halibut
__________________
I married better than my wife did!!
Bait O Eggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 09:34 AM   #8
wak'm&stak'm
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville Ore.
Posts: 5,824
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

good one Roy
wak'm&stak'm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 12:46 PM   #9
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

I am skeptical it will make any difference in populations. The white seabass project has been a waste of resources as very few fish recruited to fisheries.

https://www.kqed.org/news/11650341/4...little-success

We have to get past the thinking that artificially producing juvenile fish is always a good idea. Forty million dollars is a lot of money to waste. Why not pay people to forego commercial fishing? What are limiting factors? I doubt whether this is addressing any limiting factor for halibut recruitment in the wild.


https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topi...port-confirms/

Last edited by biofisher; 12-09-2019 at 01:21 PM. Reason: additions
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 01:22 PM   #10
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
Nice

I hope the White Seabass hatcheries keep rolling too!

Why?
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 01:23 PM   #11
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
Oh if we could just get people back on the hatchery programs! Broodstock produces such a great spawn and would help bring numbers on some of these fisheries back to great levels to fish.

Nice job CCA-Southern Cal! Way to lead!

What makes you think this is a good idea?
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 01:25 PM   #12
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzz11 View Post
It surely isn't going to hurt.

Why do you say that? It will take money from other potentially more viable efforts. It also may lead some to believe changes in regs may not be necessary. Finally, genetically inferior fish may be more likely to survive and threaten wild populations.

Last edited by biofisher; 12-09-2019 at 01:26 PM. Reason: spelling
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 01:44 PM   #13
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

California halibut fecundity is upwards of 500k per female and even more for the largest fish. I note in CCA broodstock collection efforts they caught 14 broodstock and released only 2300 fish. Hopefully it was 1 to 1 spawning and if so they used 7 females which would mean upwards of 3,500,000 eggs. 2300 fish from 3.5 million eggs is not a success...
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 02:33 PM   #14
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,214
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by biofisher View Post
Why?
Because I think having more white seabass is a good thing.

You seem to have a default position of being anti hatchery. Regardless of species or location.

Do you work for a state agency in the PNW?
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur

Last edited by Gun Rod Bow; 12-09-2019 at 02:41 PM.
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 02:33 PM   #15
Don G Baldi
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Salem/Little Italy
Posts: 11,615
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Looks like someone just wants to argue.
__________________
Common sense isn't evenly distributed
Don G Baldi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 02:44 PM   #16
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,214
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by biofisher View Post
California halibut fecundity is upwards of 500k per female and even more for the largest fish. I note in CCA broodstock collection efforts they caught 14 broodstock and released only 2300 fish. Hopefully it was 1 to 1 spawning and if so they used 7 females which would mean upwards of 3,500,000 eggs. 2300 fish from 3.5 million eggs is not a success...
What percentage of 3.5 million eggs make it to the same size as the fish released in nature? Do 100% get fertilized? Do 100% get grow to the size of the fish in the story? Are you sure you are measuring success properly?
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 02:59 PM   #17
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
Because I think having more white seabass is a good thing.

You seem to have a default position of being anti hatchery. Regardless of species or location.

Do you work for a state agency in the PNW?

The thing is you are not getting more white seabass based on the evaluation of the program.


To suggest I am anti-hatchery simply because I question the efficacy of hatcheries is ridiculous. Spending 40 million dollars on something that doesn't work is idiotic. Hatcheries are often proposed as a panacea for declining fish pops instead of understanding why the pops are declining in the first place. Suggesting we should continue something that is expensive and doesn't work and may even be harmful is nonsensical, if not unethical.


I have worked at hatcheries, conducted evaluations of hatcheries, conducted experiments at hatcheries, and even designed conservation hatcheries so suggesting I am anti-hatchery is ridiculous and wrong. And no, I do not work for a state agency and I bristle at the suggestion that, if I did, that would be the reason I am skeptical of hatchery production. We have data that suggests this program doesn't work so why shouldn't we based management decisions on that instead of spurious reasoning that suggests this is a good idea to continue?

Last edited by biofisher; 12-09-2019 at 03:09 PM. Reason: addition
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:11 PM   #18
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don G Baldi View Post
Looks like someone just wants to argue.

No, I would simply like to understand why someone would automatically think this is a good idea without any facts to back it up. If they have facts that I am not aware of this is their opportunity to provide them.
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:14 PM   #19
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,214
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

So the people I know who were catching 20 WSB after work on the kelp beds off Pt Loma were imagining those fish?

For man to enhance and help build back up a population with all of the demands our ever increasing population puts on fish I see as a good thing rather than bad.

I could write a list of 100 things I’d rather not see the government spend money on. But hatcheries aren’t on that list.
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:30 PM   #20
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
What percentage of 3.5 million eggs make it to the same size as the fish released in nature? Do 100% get fertilized? Do 100% get grow to the size of the fish in the story? Are you sure you are measuring success properly?

100% don't even get fertilized in the hatchery and of course 100% do not grow to the size of that released from the hatchery. Those are red herring arguments and not really sure where you are going with them. The primary factor for evaluation is how many fish are recruited to the fishery. With the white seabass program we can see there is very little recruitment to the fishery from this program so why would you continue it? My initial reaction to releasing 2300 juvenile halibut (at what cost?) is that it isn't worth it.
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:34 PM   #21
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
So the people I know who were catching 20 WSB after work on the kelp beds off Pt Loma were imagining those fish?

For man to enhance and help build back up a population with all of the demands our ever increasing population puts on fish I see as a good thing rather than bad.

I could write a list of 100 things I’d rather not see the government spend money on. But hatcheries aren’t on that list.

But that is the issue they were NOT enhancing the population based on the evaluation of the program!



You cant ignore that fishing regs were changed at the same time fish were being released. ARe you saying they were catching hatchery-origin fish and not reporting them? Have you read the reports? The hatchery program contributed to less than 1% of the harvest...for 40 million dollars...yikes!
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:48 PM   #22
Califbill
Chromer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pleasanton, ca.
Posts: 700
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Salmon hatcheries can be very successful! Major problem is the release of the fish from the hatchery. In nature, salmon swam to the ocean tail first. Lots of smolts get eaten before they get to the ocean with the way we release fish now. Slow water, dams with pike minnow hoards. The Coastside fishing club net pen releases have a 3% tag return rare. Opposed to a 0.1% rate from fish released way up river. If the white sea bass hatchery was a failure, there would not be anywhere the number of fish caught at Catalina, on up to and in San Francisco Bay. Seems as if your glass is always half empty.
Califbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 03:56 PM   #23
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Califbill View Post
Salmon hatcheries can be very successful! Major problem is the release of the fish from the hatchery. In nature, salmon swam to the ocean tail first. Lots of smolts get eaten before they get to the ocean with the way we release fish now. Slow water, dams with pike minnow hoards. The Coastside fishing club net pen releases have a 3% tag return rare. Opposed to a 0.1% rate from fish released way up river. If the white sea bass hatchery was a failure, there would not be anywhere the number of fish caught at Catalina, on up to and in San Francisco Bay. Seems as if your glass is always half empty.
SO you are just going to ignore the actual report on this program? I never said hatcheries can't be successful. I have advocated for hatcheries and even designed them. However, not all fish are the same in terms of how well hatchery fish do in the wild. The seabass report explicitly states there were large numbers of deformed fish suggesting a genetic problem. All fish were marked from the program yet few marked fish were caught. The reason there has been some rebound in the population is because of reg changes and NOT the hatchery. I am never ceased to be amazed that people will trust anecdotal information over that developed scientifically. I hope you don't trust your GPS because science made that.
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 11:20 AM   #24
pirk fan
Tuna!
 
pirk fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Corvallis
Posts: 1,505
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Just to slightly hijack this thread, I think it would be interesting if ODFW/OSU Marine Science Center/NOAA fisheries would explore attempting to raise rockfish beyond the pelagic larval stage. Because rockfish are live bearers, conventional wisdom seems to be that they can't be hatchery reared. However, this turns out to be not true, at least for the Korean rockfish Sebastes schlegelii. This fish is important in Japanese and Korean aquaculture, they are ovoviviparous as are our species of rockfish, and they actually spawn and rear them in captivity for the commercial market.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/347...82a550abf0.pdf

And no, I'm not suggesting we need to do the same, we have a healthy wild populations of many species of rockfish. A major issue with rockfish is the colonization of structure by juvenile fish, some years of major upwellings, the larvae are carried offshore so far that they are unable to reach suitable structure. These years result in year class shortfalls in spawning success. BUT if certain species which are deemed to be over fished such as yelloweye could be spawned and reared beyond the pelagic larval stage to the structure recruitment stage, it might be possible to enhance populations and speed up the process of stock recovery for these species.

An interesting example of just how far these larvae can be carried offshore is the Nautilus ROV exploration of Kinghlas-Bowie Seamount which is located 180 kilometres offshore and to the west of Haida Gwaii (formerly known as Queen Charlotte Islands). The top of this seamount is populated with various rockfish including yelloweye, however, no ling cod were observed on these dives, perhaps because they are nest builders and their larvae don't become part of the pelagic fauna.

It would take somebody to do the science around this process, unfortunately the idea that it can't be done will never result in the effort.
pirk fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 02:14 PM   #25
Snapt
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,060
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Let’s have a civil discussion without attacking each other. PM me if you think I missed anything.
Snapt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 02:36 PM   #26
leefromseattle
Steelhead
 
leefromseattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 363
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
"Some 35 years and nearly $40 million later, the future of the Ocean Resources Enhancement and Hatchery Program (as it’s formally called) is in jeopardy: The first formal scientific evaluation has concluded that the program increased white seabass populations by less than 1 percent — a stunningly low success rate."

“Should we have started the project with a different fish? It’s something we talk about quite a bit,” says Mark Drawbridge, a senior research scientist at the Institute, who joined the program in 1989. “I think halibut [a fish that was considered in the program’s early stages] would have been easier in a lot of ways. But the halibut research was discontinued because there wasn’t enough funding to go around.”

“Was the ultimate goal scientific knowledge? No, it was to enhance the wild populations. But there’s a lot of [scientific] value from what we gained, even if we didn’t reach that ultimate goal,” says Kathryn Johnson, an environmental scientist at the California Department of Fish and Wildlife.

Michael Rust, a science adviser for NOAA Fisheries Office of Aquaculture, says information from the program is in some ways as valuable as the fish.

“With stock enhancement programs, you have the opportunity to tag a whole group of fish, put them in the ecosystem, see where they go, what they eat, and how they grow at different temperatures. The value is in the information you get. From NOAA’s perspective, the enhancement is a bonus,” says Rust.
Make of it what you will.
leefromseattle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 04:48 PM   #27
Threeweight
Ifish Nate
 
Threeweight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Columbia County
Posts: 2,643
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

The thing that always gets me about these debates is how the fundamentals -- habitat quality and food abundance -- that drive reproductive success go out the window. Throw in over-harvest (from both direct commercial take and by-catch waste) and you have a recipe for species decline.

I'm not anti-hatchery, but we anglers need to stop pretending they are the magic fat free hot fudge sundae, no pain way of getting a full tag without making any meaningful changes in habitat or harvest management.
__________________
"Wild Card" - Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225/9.9
Threeweight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 06:32 PM   #28
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,214
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threeweight View Post
The thing that always gets me about these debates is how the fundamentals -- habitat quality and food abundance -- that drive reproductive success go out the window. Throw in over-harvest (from both direct commercial take and by-catch waste) and you have a recipe for species decline.

I'm not anti-hatchery, but we anglers need to stop pretending they are the magic fat free hot fudge sundae, no pain way of getting a full tag without making any meaningful changes in habitat or harvest management.
Granted. We need to take into account habitat changes. Forage reduction along with harvest. Both directed and non directed.

But can we also dispense with the attitude that augmenting a population (hatcheries) are always bad all the time?

I was explaining to a guy in Louisiana once about anti hatchery folks in the NW.

He looked at me kind of stunned and said “who would be against having more fish”?
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 11:36 AM   #29
biofisher
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 484
Default Re: Broodstock Halibut - very cool project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
Granted. We need to take into account habitat changes. Forage reduction along with harvest. Both directed and non directed.

But can we also dispense with the attitude that augmenting a population (hatcheries) are always bad all the time?

I was explaining to a guy in Louisiana once about anti hatchery folks in the NW.

He looked at me kind of stunned and said “who would be against having more fish”?
But there aren't more fish according to the report. In fact the report suggests the high incidence of genetic malformations observed in the program suggests the program could be harmful. For the umpteenth time, I never said that hatcheries are always bad. However, when the data tells us this program or any other program isn't helping and is expensive then why would you want to continue it? One of the problems with hatcheries is they often aren't effectively evaluated and they become institutionalized simply because people think that releasing juvenile fish couldn't ever be bad or not beneficial.
biofisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Cast to



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:53 AM.

Terms of Service
 
Page generated in 0.35849 seconds with 43 queries