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Old 11-19-2019, 08:02 PM   #61
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Seems like we are going to argue our salmon and steelhead into extinction? We need to stop fighting fellow fishermen and go after are so called fish and wildlife management! All they care about is money


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Old 11-19-2019, 08:13 PM   #62
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:39 PM   #63
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Seems like we are going to argue are salmon and steelhead into extinction? We need to stop fighting fellow fishermen and go after are so called fish and wildlife management! All they care about is money
Fisheries managers manage the fish, politicians control the management of the habitat.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:42 PM   #64
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The film is narrow minded and is misleading.
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:14 PM   #65
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The film is narrow minded and is misleading.

Hear Hear!!
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:33 AM   #66
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Fisheries managers manage the fish, politicians control the management of the habitat.
FS: Don't you think that private timberland owners and private agricultural interests control the politicians and thus, the habitat management. Here is the reality of the situation:

Habitat is not improved because it would be too costly to landowners of that habitat and they control the politicians who could legislate habitat improvement. Those politicians are merely puppets and the string pullers will never allow any habitat improvement. For example, timberland owners fight increasing streamside protection every time the issue comes up.

The other 99% of the population does not know what is a salmon and why habitat is important to the species. Until that portion of the population gets some awareness and some caring about the plight of the Pacific salmon runs, habitat will never be improved. It would also require that population to elect people who will require habitat improvement. Anyone who thinks this will happen also believes that the June Hogs will demolish Grand Coulee by smashing into it repeatedly and reestablishing those runs.
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:03 AM   #67
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FS: Don't you think that private timberland owners and private agricultural interests control the politicians and thus, the habitat management. Here is the reality of the situation:

Habitat is not improved because it would be too costly to landowners of that habitat and they control the politicians who could legislate habitat improvement. Those politicians are merely puppets and the string pullers will never allow any habitat improvement. For example, timberland owners fight increasing streamside protection every time the issue comes up.

The other 99% of the population does not know what is a salmon and why habitat is important to the species. Until that portion of the population gets some awareness and some caring about the plight of the Pacific salmon runs, habitat will never be improved. It would also require that population to elect people who will require habitat improvement. Anyone who thinks this will happen also believes that the June Hogs will demolish Grand Coulee by smashing into it repeatedly and reestablishing those runs.

So your saying politicians have no say in making our rules and regulations?
Who do you think makes the decisions at ODF?
Or a better question would be why do politicians allow timber interests to trump our environmental regulations?
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:38 AM   #68
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Salmo - Do you have any thoughts on what would lead to a relative resurgence in numbers like have happened on the Skagit / Sauk recently after the hatchery was closed?
I look at it as a 2 fold issue. If you have a hatchery, you get a fishery. If you have a fishery, it supports tribal and commercial/sport interests. Harvest & Hatchery go hand in hand. And no one wants to give up the harvest so they fight for the hatchery even when the cost is outrageous from an opportunity at recovery and actual dollars. plus lowering of escapement criteria and other mismanagement etc...

D3,


First, there has been no "resurgence" of Skagit wild steelhead in response to terminatiing hatchery production or for any other reason. Skagit steelhead are not threatened. Skagit steelhead are a victim of geography that lists all Puget Sound wild steelhead as threatened under the ESA by NMFS in 2006. If the Skagit River emptied into the Salish Sea/Puget Sound north of the 49th parallel it would be the healthiest steelhead population in southern British Columbia, and not listed as threatened under the ESA.


Skagit steelhead have averaged around 8,000 or so since record keeping began in 1978. The observed range of annual abundance was around 3,500 to 16,000 until 2009 when it dropped to a new low of 2,500 wild steelhead. The Skagit steelhead run size varies annually mainly in response to different marine survival rates. Skagit steelhead habitat has seen some restoration and improvements and also some continued degradation. Overall I think freshwater habitat quality is a wash over the last 30 or 40 years. The steelhead season closed beginning in 2010 based on the low return in 2009 and the fact that there was no NMFS approved plan for steelhead under the ESA listing.


The 2,500 spawners in 2009 were largely responsible for the 8,500 steelhead that returned in 2013, demonstrating that steelhead are in fact quite resilient, producing more than 3 recruits per spawner. And this occurred prior to discontinuing the stocking of hatchery steelhead. So any claim that wild steelhead rebounded due to removal of hatchery steelhead is not supported by empirical evidence. Steelhead returns the last two seasons have been 5,500 and about 5,000, again in response to ocean survival, which is heavily influenced by the large pinniped population in Puget Sound. If hatchery steelhead were the limiting factor for wild steelhead abundance, returns should have been much higher. I'm not saying that hatchery steelhead have no effect on wild steelhead abundance, but I'm saying that they are much farther down the list than harbor seals, sea lions, warming ocean temperatures, ocean acidification, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, and associated declines in key forage species.


The fishing season for Skagit steelhead is and has been CNR since 1981, and the treaty tribal harvest is and remains low to modest. Fishing is NOT a factor affecting Skagit steelhead abundance. And the effect of hatchery steelhead on wild Skagit steelhead abundance is too low to measure as statistically significant.


Sg
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:00 PM   #69
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I am writing to address the highlighted portion of your post. But, first, I will add that at least in Oregon where the same is true about the lack of recovery of wild steelhead, there is also mostly no take of wild steelhead allowed by anyone; and still there is no noticeable rebound in wild steelhead numbers. This is extremely important information and would suggest that, perhaps, habitat is so depleted that wild steelhead cannot thrive. Or, if someone can come up with another explanation as to why wild steelhead have not recovered with their take prohibited.

However, I am not sure if those steelhead are taken in the ocean by longliners or any other commercial harvest activity, which could be a reason why they are not rebounding. We know they are taken at the mouths of the Dean and Fraser by gill netters and seiners. But, I have no idea whether Oregon steelhead are taken at other points in the ocean. From one article re the BC situation I saw, there is another explanation why wild steelhead may not have rebounded:

"Scientists warn warming oceans have become an increasingly hostile place for salmon and steelhead, which have seen record low returns in a number of fisheries this year.
The province, anglers and the DFO all said warming oceans are the biggest threat facing steelhead."


I know your original point was that the presence of hatchery steelhead cannot be the reason for the decline of wild steelhead and I am not denying that assertion. However, it may be that if these other factors are responsible for the failure of steelhead to rebound, it is not correct to conclude that the presence of hatchery fish is not a limiting factor. That is, they might have rebounded without hatchery fish around but for the presence of these other factors. I have always been intrigued by the reasons for the lack of a rebound in those fish and thought it might be interesting to bring up some of these other potentially limiting factors in response to your post.

Jacksalmon,


I am not familiar with Oregon steelhead stocks and status, so my comments are necessarily more general in nature. If Oregon steelhead stocks were previously subject to harvest and now they are not and have not rebounded to any significant degree, then pretty much by definition, harvest was not the limiting factor affecting their abundance. It may have been a factor, as in a lesser factor, but not the primary factor or as I sometimes say, proximate cause, affecting abundance.


It is extremely likely that habitat quality, measured as productivity and capacity, is the limiting factor affecting the abundance or north OR coast wild steelhead. Remember, the ocean is part of the habitat, not just freshwater. I can tell from Google Earth that the OR coast, like western WA, is mostly forested and has been extensively logged. Freshwater habitat has been severely degraded for many decades, with wild steelhead populations declining significantly in the 1960s and 1970s. Even though there has been good steelhead fishing after that time, we were already fishing on the "crumbs" of former abundances. It is generally pretty clear that the main factor affecting wild steelhead abundance in the PNW since about 1990 has been lower ocean survival on average. There are exceptions, as you note, like specific steelhead populations that overlap in timing with major terminal area salmon net fisheries affecting Dean River, Skeena River, and Fraser (Thompson/Chilcotin) River steelhead populations.


Steelhead from N OR, WA, and BC are widely distributed in the north Pacific Ocean. They are caught in some open ocean long-line and squid gillnet fisheries. WDFW did some research on this in the early 1990s when steelhead abundance seemed to once again crash in WA. The best estimate was that about 3% - at the outside - of WA steelhead might be intercepted in the open ocean long line and net fisheries. So yeah, it's a factor, one more to add to the long list of factors affected steelhead population abundance, but again, not the limiting factor.


I think that when all available information is taken in context into consideration, we can reasonably conclude that neither hatchery steelhead nor open ocean interceptions are major factors limiting wild steelhead abundance or reasons for their failure to rebound.


Sg
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:12 PM   #70
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Jacksalmon,


I am not familiar with Oregon steelhead stocks and status, so my comments are necessarily more general in nature. If Oregon steelhead stocks were previously subject to harvest and now they are not and have not rebounded to any significant degree, then pretty much by definition, harvest was not the limiting factor affecting their abundance. It may have been a factor, as in a lesser factor, but not the primary factor or as I sometimes say, proximate cause, affecting abundance.


It is extremely likely that habitat quality, measured as productivity and capacity, is the limiting factor affecting the abundance or north OR coast wild steelhead. Remember, the ocean is part of the habitat, not just freshwater. I can tell from Google Earth that the OR coast, like western WA, is mostly forested and has been extensively logged. Freshwater habitat has been severely degraded for many decades, with wild steelhead populations declining significantly in the 1960s and 1970s. Even though there has been good steelhead fishing after that time, we were already fishing on the "crumbs" of former abundances. It is generally pretty clear that the main factor affecting wild steelhead abundance in the PNW since about 1990 has been lower ocean survival on average. There are exceptions, as you note, like specific steelhead populations that overlap in timing with major terminal area salmon net fisheries affecting Dean River, Skeena River, and Fraser (Thompson/Chilcotin) River steelhead populations.


Steelhead from N OR, WA, and BC are widely distributed in the north Pacific Ocean. They are caught in some open ocean long-line and squid gillnet fisheries. WDFW did some research on this in the early 1990s when steelhead abundance seemed to once again crash in WA. The best estimate was that about 3% - at the outside - of WA steelhead might be intercepted in the open ocean long line and net fisheries. So yeah, it's a factor, one more to add to the long list of factors affected steelhead population abundance, but again, not the limiting factor.


I think that when all available information is taken in context into consideration, we can reasonably conclude that neither hatchery steelhead nor open ocean interceptions are major factors limiting wild steelhead abundance or reasons for their failure to rebound.


Sg
SG: Thanks for your thoughtful response. I have no problem indicting habitat as the limiting factor on wild steelhead productivity in Oregon and assigning minor roles to other factors. But, regardless, what is true is that all of these factors are induced by humans, who are unmotivated to do anything of any substance to help wild steelhead become more productive. Of course, the bios are motivated but both of their hands are tied and their feet are bound also, while their mouths are taped shut in fear of job loss should they tell the truth. So, they do what they can, which is obviously not enough judging by the failure of these runs to increase in size.

Look, when humans decided to kill off the most fantastic subspecies of the Pacific chinook, the June Hogs, there was no doubt that they would not hesitate to kill off other salmon species and they are doing a great job of it.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:19 PM   #71
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So your saying politicians have no say in making our rules and regulations?
Who do you think makes the decisions at ODF?
Or a better question would be why do politicians allow timber interests to trump our environmental regulations?
FS: You are either incredibly naive; or being sarcastic. Since I cannot figure out your comments as motivated by sarcasm, I will proceed as though you are naive.

Of course, politicians have a say in making rules and regulations and direct the agencies on what is to be done. Politicians want to keep their jobs, so they dance to the tune played by those who determine whether they can keep their jobs. In Oregon, that tune is played by timber and agricultural interests, so timber interests trump Oregon environmental regulations. In addition, in urban areas, where voters may be more willing to help fish, they elect people who are mostly unwilling to do that and are afraid to rock the boat. Improving fish habitat provides little reward to those politicians, so they really don't make much of an effort to get that done and it allows them to be friends with those whose votes they need to do things like provide road or school funding. Helping fish must be dead last or perhaps nonexistent, on the list of agenda items for even "green" politicians.

Since those like you and me who want to see habitat protected and improved will never get to play, or call, the tune, Oregon habitat will continue to be degraded, or, at best, never improved.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:49 PM   #72
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FS: You are either incredibly naive; or being sarcastic. Since I cannot figure out your comments as motivated by sarcasm, I will proceed as though you are naive.

Of course, politicians have a say in making rules and regulations and direct the agencies on what is to be done. Politicians want to keep their jobs, so they dance to the tune played by those who determine whether they can keep their jobs. In Oregon, that tune is played by timber and agricultural interests, so timber interests trump Oregon environmental regulations. In addition, in urban areas, where voters may be more willing to help fish, they elect people who are mostly unwilling to do that and are afraid to rock the boat. Improving fish habitat provides little reward to those politicians, so they really don't make much of an effort to get that done and it allows them to be friends with those whose votes they need to do things like provide road or school funding. Helping fish must be dead last or perhaps nonexistent, on the list of agenda items for even "green" politicians.

Since those like you and me who want to see habitat protected and improved will never get to play, or call, the tune, Oregon habitat will continue to be degraded, or, at best, never improved.



So what your saying is federal regulations are being ignored because special interests are paying politicians.
Funny I thought that's what I was saying.
Would you please point out in the Oregon Constitution where it says that's OK.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:44 PM   #73
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So what your saying is federal regulations are being ignored because special interests are paying politicians.
Funny I thought that's what I was saying.
Would you please point out in the Oregon Constitution where it says that's OK.
Of course, regulations, state and federal are being ignored because special interests are paying politicians and the "citizenry" lets them get away with it because they are ignorant and uninformed and choose to remain that way. There are no constitutional provisions that say it is OK. It is just the way it is.

There is more proof that humans will do everything they can to insure that fish runs are decimated. A jury in the Oregon counties case against the state just came back with a $1 billion verdict against the state for not cutting enough timber to put money in the counties checkbook under a contract signed some time ago. The state claimed that it was merely trying to manage the forests with all interests in mind including recreation and other species, which would include fish. I know it will be said that the state entered into a contract and did not keep its oblilgations. But the fact that the state entered into such a contract and did not specifically reserve the right to cut less to protect other interests.

Now, the state will have to start mowing down trees with renewed vigor to fulfill its contractual duties and give the counties more money. Guess which species will suffer even more and approach extinction. You got it-------the Pacific salmon spawning in waterways that require quality water from Oregon state forests.

This is why you and I will never agree on whether humans will do the right thing to save salmon. You think they will and I look at real life events like this one and KNOW they won't. By the way, as a kicker, the state of Oregon will continue to authorize the commercial harvest of chinook that will be reeling from the effects of more timber cutting in Oregon state forests. Adios salmon, it has been nice knowing you.

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Old 11-20-2019, 06:30 PM   #74
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But, to be fair to humans with regard to this county contract verdict news, here is some additional info from another article on the lawsuit:

"The jury found that the state owed those counties $1.1 billion in damages, including $674 million the counties contend they lost since 2001 because the state didn’t cut enough trees. The verdict also includes $392 million in future damages, which assumes the state will continue to manage the state forests in the same fashion, and fail to maximize timber revenues for the next 50 years."

So, I guess it is possible that since the counties' verdict includes future damages for the anticipated failure to cut trees in accordance with contractual requirements over the next 50 years, the state can eliminate the kicker and just pay the counties the money without increasing the timber cut. Or, the state could ask teh courts to waive that portion of the judgment and simply cut the trees in accordance with the counties' interpretation of the contract. But, in the final analysis, I would suspect that the fish will not get off without any further damage by the time this is over. Of course, I have no faith in humans to do what is right as far as salmon runs are concerned, so I will admit to be overly pessimistic.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:52 PM   #75
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This may well put a fork in the Oregon cut and run timber industry.
Ironically this infestation is exacerbated by mono culture tree farming.


https://today.oregonstate.edu/archiv...on-coast-range


"Sustained growth losses over the previous 20 years have resulted in millions of dollars in lost timber and tax revenues," said Gabriela Ritokova, lead author and assistant director of the Swiss Needle Cooperative. "In many cases, mid-rotation stands in the hardest hit areas have remained in an unproductive state, with managers hoping for a reprieve in disease levels."
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:37 PM   #76
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:58 PM   #77
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This may well put a fork in the Oregon cut and run timber industry.
Ironically this infestation is exacerbated by mono culture tree farming.


https://today.oregonstate.edu/archiv...on-coast-range


"Sustained growth losses over the previous 20 years have resulted in millions of dollars in lost timber and tax revenues," said Gabriela Ritokova, lead author and assistant director of the Swiss Needle Cooperative. "In many cases, mid-rotation stands in the hardest hit areas have remained in an unproductive state, with managers hoping for a reprieve in disease levels."
It's the revenge of the spirits of the salmon. Finally----it's about time.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:52 PM   #78
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I re-watched that portion. The guy, Ken Balcomb, is suggesting that the SRKWs are declining in population due to lack of food. He suggests we should stop fishing, and that hatchery production isn't going to help. Do you have a source to cite that says otherwise? Can you point me towards the research you have done that describes pollution and whale watching boats as the primary reasons for their decline? If not, I'm going to take the opinion of Ken, the guy who does this for a living.

What strikes me, is that you are basically saying that you are an authority on all of the subjects covered in this documentary. Otherwise, how can you say that all of the information is twisted or entirely incorrect?

I'm not trying to be rude, but I just get tired of people making assumptions and forming hard opinions on subjects that they actually don't truly understand. Then spouting these opinions publicly as hard facts. It seems like nowadays, if you don't like what an expert says, you can just make up your own facts and run with them. Conveniently, these facts often lead to a preferred truth, where you get to have your cake and eat it too.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and cite your research sources. Or maybe you have a degree or work experience in fisheries related science?

I do think that they pull at the heart strings a bit too much in the documentary. There are some big leaps and assumptions that I don't 100% agree with. The movie isn't perfect. But in general, I think they make a solid argument that needs to be made.
Sorry for not checking back on this thread sooner. My sons car was stolen so I had a busy couple days helping him get back on the road.

I actually do have a fisheries degree and have worked in the fisheries field for 33 years. If you google the cause of SRKW decline boat noise and pollution are highly suspect by most experts. Declining Chinook populations are another but that isn't just happening in systems where fish hatcheries exist so in my opinion this video isn't likely to be helpful at all.

They claim hatchery fish spawning in the wild are causing genetic harm to wild fish then try and portray kids putting hatchery fish carcasses out for stream enrichment into a terrible thing which is contradictory. Maybe that was just my interpretation but the way it was shown was really odd. One thing that is certain is that the hatchery fish in the totes didn't mate with wild fish. Placing their carcasses back in the rivers is replacing a lot of lost nutrients and is a great practice in my opinion. Putting a bunch of dams in the rivers and destroying habitat not so much.

I shouldn't really be bothered by this kind of propaganda because it won't actually have much impact on what is going on in the real world. There are a lot of people doing a lot of work to benefit wild salmon and that will continue. I'll continue to do what I can each day in real life to benefit wild salmon and skip debating about it on here.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:50 AM   #79
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Sorry for not checking back on this thread sooner. My sons car was stolen so I had a busy couple days helping him get back on the road.

I actually do have a fisheries degree and have worked in the fisheries field for 33 years. If you google the cause of SRKW decline boat noise and pollution are highly suspect by most experts. Declining Chinook populations are another but that isn't just happening in systems where fish hatcheries exist so in my opinion this video isn't likely to be helpful at all.

They claim hatchery fish spawning in the wild are causing genetic harm to wild fish then try and portray kids putting hatchery fish carcasses out for stream enrichment into a terrible thing which is contradictory. Maybe that was just my interpretation but the way it was shown was really odd. One thing that is certain is that the hatchery fish in the totes didn't mate with wild fish. Placing their carcasses back in the rivers is replacing a lot of lost nutrients and is a great practice in my opinion. Putting a bunch of dams in the rivers and destroying habitat not so much.

I shouldn't really be bothered by this kind of propaganda because it won't actually have much impact on what is going on in the real world. There are a lot of people doing a lot of work to benefit wild salmon and that will continue. I'll continue to do what I can each day in real life to benefit wild salmon and skip debating about it on here.
What is it that you do each day to benefit wild salmon and what positive results have you seen? I am looking for some good news about salmon.
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:20 AM   #80
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FS: You are either incredibly naive; or being sarcastic. Since I cannot figure out your comments as motivated by sarcasm, I will proceed as though you are naive.

Of course, politicians have a say in making rules and regulations and direct the agencies on what is to be done. Politicians want to keep their jobs, so they dance to the tune played by those who determine whether they can keep their jobs. In Oregon, that tune is played by timber and agricultural interests, so timber interests trump Oregon environmental regulations. In addition, in urban areas, where voters may be more willing to help fish, they elect people who are mostly unwilling to do that and are afraid to rock the boat. Improving fish habitat provides little reward to those politicians, so they really don't make much of an effort to get that done and it allows them to be friends with those whose votes they need to do things like provide road or school funding. Helping fish must be dead last or perhaps nonexistent, on the list of agenda items for even "green" politicians.

Since those like you and me who want to see habitat protected and improved will never get to play, or call, the tune, Oregon habitat will continue to be degraded, or, at best, never improved.

Jack,


For an unsophisticated layman you just posted a most excellent summary of why fish habitat was allowed to be degraded and continues to be degraded. The political will for high quality lip service exceeds the will to actually act to protect habitat.
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:37 AM   #81
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What is it that you do each day to benefit wild salmon and what positive results have you seen? I am looking for some good news about salmon.
What is it that you do each day to benefit wild salmon? Hint: hijacking every single thread on Ifish doesn’t count. We have an “only sea lion thread,” an “only gillnet thread,” an “only wolf thread,” etc. Can we have an “only Jacksalmon thread?”


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Old 11-21-2019, 12:13 PM   #82
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

I don't quite get his angle...He cares about Salmon, he cares about habitat, he'd like to see some dams removed... but he just really wants to make sure we know people don't care about Salmon. Interesting guy that Jacksalmon!
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Old 11-21-2019, 03:56 PM   #83
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Originally Posted by Beefcake View Post
What is it that you do each day to benefit wild salmon? Hint: hijacking every single thread on Ifish doesn’t count. We have an “only sea lion thread,” an “only gillnet thread,” an “only wolf thread,” etc. Can we have an “only Jacksalmon thread?”


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Hey, dude, I posed an honest question to a guy who said he does something every day to help wild salmon. So, I asked what he did and what results has he seen. Why do you have to get into the middle of it? Besides, I wanted to see what he has seen that might amount to good news. What's your problem? I know-----you don't like my position on the commercial slaughter of chinook salmon. So, you'll take every chance you have to post something negative on me. Have at it, Beefcake, I have taken better shots than you can offer. Go for it and have fun doing it.

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Old 11-21-2019, 04:05 PM   #84
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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I don't quite get his angle...He cares about Salmon, he cares about habitat, he'd like to see some dams removed... but he just really wants to make sure we know people don't care about Salmon. Interesting guy that Jacksalmon!
So what, man, do you think Oregon salmon runs are in great shape? If you think they are, then fine, we simply disagree. If you think they are not in good shape, do you think humans have anything to do with it? Do you think that poor habitat might be a problem for salmon? Do you think that dams without fish passage might be a problem for salmon? Do you think those Snake River dams should stay in place? So, why don't you and Beefcake get together and post some more cheap shots?

But before you two have your get together, go read post #60 in this thread and make sure you read the info provided in the link to the article given in post #60 and think about it for awhile. Then come back and tell me how the commercial harvest has no effect on the chinook runs of Washington and Oregon. Also, come back and tell me how the statistics provided in post #60 show how much people care about chinook in the Pac NW.

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Old 11-21-2019, 05:43 PM   #85
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

Like I stated, I just don't get the points to your posts. It seems like you're for restoration projects but you're more interested in telling us, in every post, that people don't care about salmon, and the restoration projects won't happen. I think most of us understand the publics attitude toward salmon right now. The hope and ambition is to turn that around, and it will get turned around to some extent. I guess if you think you're helping the cause by telling everybody it will never happen then good on you and carry on

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Old 11-21-2019, 07:23 PM   #86
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

I too am confused on Jacks message.
He claims to be against high seas commercial harvest.
But he doesn't show how this would save wild salmon.
Or how the non fishing public will access the fish they paid to produce.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:47 PM   #87
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I too am confused on Jacks message.
He claims to be against high seas commercial harvest.
But he doesn't show how this would save wild salmon.
Or how the non fishing public will access the fish they paid to produce.

If commercial harvest has no effect on wild salmon, then why does the PFMC even bother to set seasons/limits? Just open it up year round for as many salmon as the commercials can catch. In your world, that would not harm runs because harvest has no effect on their abundance.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:52 PM   #88
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Like I stated, I just don't get the points to your posts. It seems like you're for restoration projects but you're more interested in telling us, in every post, that people don't care about salmon, and the restoration projects won't happen. I think most of us understand the publics attitude toward salmon right now. The hope and ambition is to turn that around, and it will get turned around to some extent. I guess if you think you're helping the cause by telling everybody it will never happen then good on you and carry on
You are absolutely right. I have lost faith in society ever doing what is right for salmon and am very angry/disappointed that so much harm has been done to that species without much help being provided to help restore the runs. I don't think I am helping the cause of "turning things around" because I don't believe it will ever happen.

However, you are right that it does no good to write about my feelings of disgust toward society for the harm it has done and its refusal to make things better. I sincerely hope that all who want to bring about change are successful. I just don't see it happening, but I do wish all those who are trying well. Maybe they can prove me wrong. I hope they do.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:21 PM   #89
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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If commercial harvest has no effect on wild salmon, then why does the PFMC even bother to set seasons/limits? Just open it up year round for as many salmon as the commercials can catch. In your world, that would not harm runs because harvest has no effect on their abundance.
You should spend more time researching and less time speculating.
All harvest is regulated, but you already know that.
What you should be looking at is factors inhibiting recovery.
One size doesn't fit all you will find different impacts depending on the basin.
I've been reading these reports for over 30 years and I can't remember ever reading where harvest was a leading factor for recovery, there may be one out there but I haven't seen it.
This would tent to lead one into thinking harvest doesn't dictate abundance.
One could look at the North coast wild steelhead as a example, 35 years of no harvest and no recovery, that's because harvest wasn't a leading factor inhibiting recovery.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:43 PM   #90
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You are absolutely right. I have lost faith in society ever doing what is right for salmon and am very angry/disappointed that so much harm has been done to that species without much help being provided to help restore the runs. I don't think I am helping the cause of "turning things around" because I don't believe it will ever happen.

However, you are right that it does no good to write about my feelings of disgust toward society for the harm it has done and its refusal to make things better. I sincerely hope that all who want to bring about change are successful. I just don't see it happening, but I do wish all those who are trying well. Maybe they can prove me wrong. I hope they do.
I have lost my wallet several times and it has been returned to me several times by complete strangers. Most people are good people who want to do the right thing. We can go around and pee on their shoes and tell them the salmon aren't ever going to come back, or we can try to educate and change. It may or may not happen, but for christ sake, why would you spend so much time complaining when you could at least be trying. We still live in an amazing part of the world, and most of us can still walk to a creek somewhere and find some salmon spawning to look at. If you want to keep the dams, then fight to keep to the dams. If you want to restore habitat, fight to restore habitat. If you want to keep hatcheries, then fight to keep them. Don't be a coward and refuse to fight for something you want. Thats really all I have to say! I value your opinions but am not interested in your conflicting narratives and I won't be responding to them if you aim them towards me in future posts.

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Old 11-21-2019, 11:16 PM   #91
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Hey, dude, I posed an honest question to a guy who said he does something every day to help wild salmon. So, I asked what he did and what results has he seen. Why do you have to get into the middle of it? Besides, I wanted to see what he has seen that might amount to good news. What's your problem? I know-----you don't like my position on the commercial slaughter of chinook salmon. So, you'll take every chance you have to post something negative on me. Have at it, Beefcake, I have taken better shots than you can offer. Go for it and have fun doing it.
Well, since you asked, maybe I shouldn't have "gotten in the middle of it." However, I will gladly explain why I did. First, if Joe is who I think he is from the hunting board, he is the real deal (a school teacher that gets youth involved in the outdoors). I would like to see him post more on the fishing board, but he probably won't if he gets personally attacked when he does. Therefore, my post was in support of him. Even if I am wrong and he isn't the hunter I'm thinking of, I would like to encourage the opinions of others instead of just the 10 or so of us that seem to get involved in these threads.

Second, you quoted my only prior post on this thread and tried to change the subject to your pet mantra of commercial harvest. My post had nothing to do with commercial harvest; it had to do with the hypocrisy of the film pushing to take away the main food source of Puget Sound Resident Killer Whales that they claim to be trying to save. I can only assume that you quoted my post and hijacked it in order to draw me back into an argument with you as you have done in the past. In fact, after 15+ years of reading ifish, you are somewhat of an enigma. I can't recall anyone else in all that time that has such a blatant pattern of making condescending and challenging replies to multiple people on a thread in order to start multiple debates with multiple people so that you have an excuse to take over the thread by posting replies to 3 or 4 different people several times per day. Have you noticed that you post more than any other person on just about every thread you can insert yourself into? I have to assume that you just like to hear the sound of your own voice. Unfortunately, it gets old, so every once in a while I point it out to you. I don't mean to "play Sheriff;" Ifish has moderators for that. I should just put you on my ignore list, but then I would only see everybody's rebuttals to your posts, and it would all lose context.

Third, and speaking of hypocrisy, it struck me as odd that you would challenge Joe about what he does to contribute to fish restoration or our fisheries since you have stated that you are unwilling to become involved in organizing a political movement to change commercial harvest even though you post about fifty times per day that the rest of us are stupid to discuss any other challenges facing fish restoration. If you aren't willing to put your time / money / effort into making a change, please quit blaming the rest of us for not doing it for you.

For the record, I don't believe that I have ever said that I am against commercial harvest reform. It would be amazing if 50+% of our fish weren't harvested before they came back to Oregon. I have pointed out that what you are proposing would be a major uphill battle, and I don't see it as feasible. It would require changing international trade agreements as well as educating the public enough for them to give up the ability to buy chinook in a grocery store or restaurant. Plus, it would give BPA, ACOE, and the state of Oregon a legal reason to renege on their obligation to provide hatchery fish to replace those that would be in the rivers if not for the dams. If you can formulate a plan to move the ball forward on hatchery reform without taking away our sport fisheries, I'll gladly donate time and money to it. But, since you've determined that it isn't worth your time to actually try to make it happen, please quit hijacking my posts with it.

One of my favorite quotes is from an old golfer named Harvey Penick. He once said, "And if you play golf, you're my friend." That is how I feel about most of the members of this forum. There are several guys on here that I have polar-opposite political views from but that I would give the shirt off my back for. I am not looking to make you an adversary. If you are passionate about fish and fishing, we should be on the same side. However, if you continue to hijack my posts with the same old market hunting comparison and a condescending attitude but no plan to change anything, don't be surprised if I occasionally call you out on it.
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Old 11-22-2019, 08:57 AM   #92
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Well, since you asked, maybe I shouldn't have "gotten in the middle of it." However, I will gladly explain why I did. First, if Joe is who I think he is from the hunting board, he is the real deal (a school teacher that gets youth involved in the outdoors). I would like to see him post more on the fishing board, but he probably won't if he gets personally attacked when he does. Therefore, my post was in support of him. Even if I am wrong and he isn't the hunter I'm thinking of, I would like to encourage the opinions of others instead of just the 10 or so of us that seem to get involved in these threads.

Second, you quoted my only prior post on this thread and tried to change the subject to your pet mantra of commercial harvest. My post had nothing to do with commercial harvest; it had to do with the hypocrisy of the film pushing to take away the main food source of Puget Sound Resident Killer Whales that they claim to be trying to save. I can only assume that you quoted my post and hijacked it in order to draw me back into an argument with you as you have done in the past. In fact, after 15+ years of reading ifish, you are somewhat of an enigma. I can't recall anyone else in all that time that has such a blatant pattern of making condescending and challenging replies to multiple people on a thread in order to start multiple debates with multiple people so that you have an excuse to take over the thread by posting replies to 3 or 4 different people several times per day. Have you noticed that you post more than any other person on just about every thread you can insert yourself into? I have to assume that you just like to hear the sound of your own voice. Unfortunately, it gets old, so every once in a while I point it out to you. I don't mean to "play Sheriff;" Ifish has moderators for that. I should just put you on my ignore list, but then I would only see everybody's rebuttals to your posts, and it would all lose context.

Third, and speaking of hypocrisy, it struck me as odd that you would challenge Joe about what he does to contribute to fish restoration or our fisheries since you have stated that you are unwilling to become involved in organizing a political movement to change commercial harvest even though you post about fifty times per day that the rest of us are stupid to discuss any other challenges facing fish restoration. If you aren't willing to put your time / money / effort into making a change, please quit blaming the rest of us for not doing it for you.

For the record, I don't believe that I have ever said that I am against commercial harvest reform. It would be amazing if 50+% of our fish weren't harvested before they came back to Oregon. I have pointed out that what you are proposing would be a major uphill battle, and I don't see it as feasible. It would require changing international trade agreements as well as educating the public enough for them to give up the ability to buy chinook in a grocery store or restaurant. Plus, it would give BPA, ACOE, and the state of Oregon a legal reason to renege on their obligation to provide hatchery fish to replace those that would be in the rivers if not for the dams. If you can formulate a plan to move the ball forward on hatchery reform without taking away our sport fisheries, I'll gladly donate time and money to it. But, since you've determined that it isn't worth your time to actually try to make it happen, please quit hijacking my posts with it.

One of my favorite quotes is from an old golfer named Harvey Penick. He once said, "And if you play golf, you're my friend." That is how I feel about most of the members of this forum. There are several guys on here that I have polar-opposite political views from but that I would give the shirt off my back for. I am not looking to make you an adversary. If you are passionate about fish and fishing, we should be on the same side. However, if you continue to hijack my posts with the same old market hunting comparison and a condescending attitude but no plan to change anything, don't be surprised if I occasionally call you out on it.
You are totally clueless. I asked Joe an honest question about what he does to help salmon and what results he has seen and you label it as an attack. Get a life and learn to read English. If I was attacking him, I would have been able to do that. I wanted to know what results he has seen, so I asked him.

You say your post was in support of him. Why would he need support when all I asked him was what results he has seen in his work? You were the one with the twisted mind who decided my question was an attack.

Here's another thing for you. Contrary to what you think in your twisted mind, I have no personal beef with you, Beefcake. None whatsoever. My vendetta is against the commercial chinook industry which takes Oregon and Washington chinook and reduces their abundance solely for money. You have a personal vendetta against me as is apparent from your post. I still don't have a personal beef against you. But, you may continue to continue your personal attacks against myself because I rub you the wrong way. Have at it and enjoy it. I am glad you are getting something out of it.

But, here is an early Christmas present for you, sweetheart. I can understand how you don't like to hear me constantly whining about commercial harvest of chinook. I really do, especially when it is only whining and does not lead to anything accomplished. So, just for you, honey, I will lay off any commercial harvest comments for the rest of the year. Merry Christmas, Beefy.

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Old 11-22-2019, 09:23 AM   #93
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
You should spend more time researching and less time speculating.
All harvest is regulated, but you already know that.
What you should be looking at is factors inhibiting recovery.
One size doesn't fit all you will find different impacts depending on the basin.
I've been reading these reports for over 30 years and I can't remember ever reading where harvest was a leading factor for recovery, there may be one out there but I haven't seen it.
This would tent to lead one into thinking harvest doesn't dictate abundance.
One could look at the North coast wild steelhead as a example, 35 years of no harvest and no recovery, that's because harvest wasn't a leading factor inhibiting recovery.
For you to contend that harvest has no effect on abundance is ridiculous. That is why the PFMC even bothers to set seasons and limits. But, I guess you don't understand that. You simply continue to say that harvest has no effect on abundance.

Here is what one poster said to you about that:

freespool, the leading scientists in salmon conservation and recovery freely acknowledge the importance of hatchery AND harvest reform.

How is it your stereo only ever plays ONE song? It must be lonely spewing that monotonous misguided garbage the past two decades.

Just For Clarification.... HARVEST MATTERS!

Not because I said so, but because it IS so.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:51 AM   #94
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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Originally Posted by jacksalmon View Post
For you to contend that harvest has no effect on abundance is ridiculous. That is why the PFMC even bothers to set seasons and limits. But, I guess you don't understand that. You simply continue to say that harvest has no effect on abundance.

Here is what one poster said to you about that:

freespool, the leading scientists in salmon conservation and recovery freely acknowledge the importance of hatchery AND harvest reform.

How is it your stereo only ever plays ONE song? It must be lonely spewing that monotonous misguided garbage the past two decades.

Just For Clarification.... HARVEST MATTERS!

Not because I said so, but because it IS so.

I'm taking about recovery Jack, find a stock assessment survey that lists harvest as a leading inhibitor for recovery.
And as for my stereo, pot kettle black.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:59 AM   #95
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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I'm taking about recovery Jack, find a stock assessment survey that lists harvest as a leading inhibitor for recovery.
And as for my stereo, pot kettle black.
OK, I agree. We each have our pet peeve. Yours is habitat and mine is harvest. I agree yours is important and you believe that harvest has nothing to do with abundance.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:26 AM   #96
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

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OK, I agree. We each have our pet peeve. Yours is habitat and mine is harvest. I agree yours is important and you believe the same thing science believes that harvest has nothing to do with abundance.



Fixed it for ya.
Good luck in your research.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:43 PM   #97
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Default Re: Film: Artifishal | The Fight to Save Wild Salmon

A post on this thread was reported because for a personal attack. Since much of the discussion turned into apersonal comments it has been closed. Please stick to debating and discussing the topic of the threads on ifish. Abusive and offensive personal comments are always unacceptable...
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