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Old 10-01-2019, 01:01 PM   #1
DogZilla15
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Default 6.5 Stuff

My wife picked up some reading material for me yesterday and one of the magazines was a special edition of Rifle Sporting Arms Journal. It featured 13 different articles on the various 6.5’s. I read every one with the exception of the 6.5 Weatherby and the Japanese and Italian versions. They just didn’t interest me at all.

The one article that came up short was the one on the 6.5X55. None of the rifles used for data collecting were of a modern (strong) design or had a useful barrel length of 24 inches. Europeans load ammo to a higher pressure than lots of other sources but even so it is quite anemic at 55,000 psi. Most all modern data for other cartridges in modern bolt action rifles, including factory ammunition, is loaded to 65,000psi. So if anyone is considering the 6.5X55 but can’t warm up to relatively slow muzzle velocities listed everywhere, there is room for real improvement if you’re willing to go there.

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Old 10-01-2019, 07:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: 6.5 Stuff

I've come across a stainless Ruger #1 in 6.5x55. I'm sure that could handle 65k psi and would be a fun rifle. If I remember correctly it had the 'international' stock.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:14 PM   #3
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I have a 6,5x55 in a modern CRF model 70 New Haven made Winchester stainless featherweight. It is just incredible.

The action is long,,,has plenty of room for tipped TTSX Barnes bullets. I found data to approach 3000 feet per second with the 120 grain bullets.

It has the 1 in 7.8 twist and can handle the 140 grain Lapua naturalis. Before i just stopped using lead core bullets,,,my blood lead level dropped neatly in half,,i used to shoot the 155 grain Lapua Mega very accurately,

My best three shot groups at a hundred yards were one 30 cal sized hole. I figure center to center was 1/8 of an inch.

It is very effective on deer. The farthest a deer ever went was about 50 feet.

Using Barnes bullets really upgrades the killing power.

I also like the fact that this caliber was the original Olympic chambering
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: 6.5 Stuff

Great caliber! I have dies for it, but no rifle to go with it. Classic chambering, lots of use in history, but maybe that's just my heritage. It is harder to find ammo for it in stores.
These days, you would be looking at the 7mm-08 or 260Rem. Or just swallow the blue pill and buy the $299 TC 6.5 Creedmoor from Cabelas.

It's hard to find a hunter using a 6.5x55 that didn't like it's light recoil, accuracy and performance on game, and the caliber holds well with other chamberings like the 7mm-08, 260Rem, 270Win.
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Old 10-01-2019, 09:58 PM   #5
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It seems that magazines are hesitant to print modern pressure data for rounds that were chambered in "old/weak" (By todays standards) actions. Same as 30-06 and 250-3000. Both are very soft data in every manual I own.

The good news is, the Swede has killed pretty much every animal on the face of the planet in it's original anemic loading.

Figuring out what load data to use is usually not too hard. Look at similar rounds that are loaded to high pressure (Like the 260). Compare internal capacity. If the Swede holds 3-4 more grains of powder than the 260, you can expect a little more velocity at same pressures. If the 6.5-284 or 6.5-06 have data available (Same basic internal capacity), that makes velocity very easy to predict.

The great news is, the 260 is a fine killer of game. So in a modern rifle, the Swede will be at least as good.

Without looking at a single manual, I'd wager that 75-100fps above the 260 sounds reasonable.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:20 AM   #6
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DB.... and that’s how it should be loaded. It’s odd you found actual data. I’d probably put just enough H4831 in the case for a lightly compressed load and go from there. Maybe a couple grains less of RL-23 and work up or same thing with Hybrid 100V. That Hybrid 100V is amazing stuff.

When the Creedless is compared to the 6.5X55 and said to be pretty much equal, they are using old 6.5X55 data. In the real world when loading the Swede the way it should be, it comes out on top by a huge margin. The Creedless would come closer to matching the performance if it were chambered in a long action but as long as manufacturers keep putting it in short actions, it will never happen.

Another thing that drags down the Creedless (and a bunch of other cartridges) is hunters getting too wrapped up in accuracy well beyond what’s necessary. So what if your rifle will shoot tiny groups way out there if it isn’t loaded to top performance. The Creedless is not a long range hunting cartridge and the fact a person can hit a deer way out there, doesn’t mean they should. Everyone here knows I’m an advocate of bullet energy and that comes with speed. Speed also allows a bullet to perform the way it was designed. Yea, animals die under all sorts of circumstances that are far less than optimal and folks find that acceptable. I don’t come from that school.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:41 AM   #7
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DLA: You’re not reading or comprehending everything. The Creedless can not be “hotrodded” when built on short actions like most of them are. The lighter bullets are loaded pretty much as hot (as it relates to muzzle velocity) as they should be with factory ammo. A simple fact. I’m a big proponent of loading cartridges to their potential, that’s why we handload in the first place. Why would a person load their .300 mag to shoot like a .308? No different when we talk about the 6.5X55. Why would we load the 6.5X55 to shoot like a Creedless?
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:17 PM   #8
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Where the Swede really shines is at shorter ranges when hunting for bigger game with those long bullets that look like half a pencil..The 260 does not have the twist for those bullets. I had a 260,,,I know.

And with the full length action that the swede comes in, it can handle really long bullets like the all copper lapua naturalis 140 grain,,,the hornady 160 round nose...and those 155 Lapua mega. The creedmoor actions are too short for those long bullets

These were the bullets the early scadanavian explorers killed polar bear with.

I got the more modern hotter load data from an earlier Barnes reloading manual. I guess they became more lawyer conscious with later loadings for the swede.

Finding modern data for the 160 hornady was easy in an older manual. Forget where I got the data for the lapua 140 grain which is just incredible. Really kind to meat too.

it took some doing but I got my 120 grain TTSX shooting 2.5 high at a 100 yards,,,my 130 TSX shooting 2 inches high at 100 yards and my 140 lapua Naturalis and my 155 lapua mega shooting dead on up close and out 75 yards with no need to adjust the scope. I played with lots of powders to do that.

Ohh Lapua brass is great. 3/4 inch groups went to 3/8 at a hundred.

When I read all this obsession with super long range I am reminded of a joke.

An American was on an African safari and was bragging about what a dead shot he was at 500 or 600 yards.

His professional hunter guide yawned and said that is very impressive,,,,but what I care about is how well you shoot at 5 or 6 feet.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:59 PM   #9
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Ohh and the scope I have on my Swede is real cool.. An El Paso Texas Weaver,,,fixed 4X real stainless steel straight front with no bell. It has the lowest mounts on it and is very close to shooting with iron sights. So fast. The crosshair is classic dual X and I learned how to just range by subtending with it,,,an old art from by gone days.

The sling is of course a Whelen sling that is adjusted for me and that rifle specifically.

That was my rig for a desert wilderness tracking hunts for Desert Mullies. Often I was playing cat and mouse for days on end in tangles of Joshua tree cactus and Occotiilio cactus,,,the round nosed bullets were idea for such an affair

This rig goes in and out of my saddle scabbard , slick as snot. A scope from Texas, A Winchester model 70 from New Haven Connecticut. and hunting along the Mexican border. I loved those days. I wore brown Carhart pants and those golden crepe sole desert Chukka ankle high boots. I wore a brown leather jacket for walking through the tall cactus tangles...funny thing,,,going in my soles had the usual dark dirt on them,,,after hiking around for days on desert sand,,,they looked brand new,,,the desert really cleaned my soles and soul.

I shiver at the consequences wildlife will pay if there any wall blocking migration routes
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:59 PM   #10
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Why call it a “creedless”. What the heck is that supposed to show other than your own lack of understanding?
The round is named after a historic rifle range for a reason.

It wasn’t made to be “the most powerful 6.5mm”, or a hunting cartridge at all. It was built for competition. Competition that requires recoil management, fast target acquisition, spotting impacts, hitting targets hard enough to get positive confirmation, and consistent easy to achieve accuracy out to 1000 yards. Competition where rules often exclude magnums or velocities over 3000fps.
Competition that requires 100+ rounds fired per day often in stages that require 10 or so rounds fired in 2 minutes or less.

Go experience the type of competition the 6.5 Creedmoor was made for and then come tell us all about how it’s such a poor choice.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: 6.5 Stuff

It has become trendy to denigrate the Creedmoor. And most that do so have not shot it. It seems that less than 3000 fps is bad. It seems that factory loads already loaded to potential are bad. Frankly reloading can take a lot of time. If I can get a factory load that does all that I need, then I do not need to reload for the sake of reloading. I need to have a reason to spend that time. Reloading can be fun but I have plenty to do otherwise. But putting down the CM is perplexing to me unless you have data to back it up. And before you say my reason to defend is because I have one, well two actually, I also have and shoot 223, 270, 280, 308, 06, 300WM, 375, 8mmRM. I reload for some, try buying 8mm, and I buy others.

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Old 10-03-2019, 07:43 AM   #12
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Chesapeak: I have nothing against the Creedmoor with lighter bullets. It’s a fine cartridge and does well in a short action with 120 grain bullets or maybe the 125 Partition. And I do know where it got its name, built on accuracy fame. As an “all around” hunting cartridge, it comes up short when chambered in a short action. This is not a fault of the cartridge but of the rifle manufacturers. This really isn’t a problem if the rifle owner is aware of it and simply doesn’t care. I’m sure all the dead animals don’t care either. I hate to see any cartridge get the short end of the stick because of the rifles its chambered in. The .257 in a short action is another fine example. If a person wants to confine themselves to 100 gr. bullets, no problem. They’ll shoot through any deer on the planet.

I suppose the biggest hangup I have with the Creedmoor is being a target cartridge adapted to a hunting cartridge in the same short action rifles used for target shooting. The only difference is bullet selection. To me, ultimate accuracy is a useless commodity when shooting deer size critters.

What all this garbage boils down to is personal preference.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: 6.5 Stuff

My old Nosler book has a couple 3000fps loads for their 120 bt, H4350 being one. Likely get a little more with Re17.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogZilla15 View Post

What all this garbage boils down to is personal preference.

I think it's a repeat of the 17hmr, another hornady success. Great round, factory match ammo, no recoil, and a lot of press creating the buzz.
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:15 PM   #15
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On paper the Creedmore is a good cartridge. Some of this as previously stated comes from the modern standardization of loads that makes it inherently more accurate with factory ammo. My problem with it comes from what follows the marketing hype when I see people shooting it 400+ yards at elk because it's "super accurate". It may be accurate, but it doesn't have enough energy left at 400 yards to take down big animals if you flinch, or the target moves, or the wind gusts, or any of the dozens of things that can happen to make you miss that shot placement by 8 inches.

-Scott
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Old 10-04-2019, 03:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S Radke View Post
On paper the Creedmore is a good cartridge. Some of this as previously stated comes from the modern standardization of loads that makes it inherently more accurate with factory ammo. My problem with it comes from what follows the marketing hype when I see people shooting it 400+ yards at elk because it's "super accurate". It may be accurate, but it doesn't have enough energy left at 400 yards to take down big animals if you flinch, or the target moves, or the wind gusts, or any of the dozens of things that can happen to make you miss that shot placement by 8 inches.

-Scott
You are so totally right about all you said. there is nothing more i can add.
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Old 10-04-2019, 06:05 AM   #17
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Hemingway killed a large lion with his 6.5mm. Sweet caliber thou I have never owned one. When I hunted in Europe it was second only to the 7x57 in hunting acquaintances.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:08 AM   #18
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Good post Radke. So many folks overestimate the killing ability of their cartridge of choice, especially on elk.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: 6.5 Stuff

You guys are so out of date. The 6.5PRC is going to take over the world. It’s what you wanted your hot-rodded 6.5-Swede to be. You might as well sell all of your other rifles.


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Old 10-04-2019, 07:37 AM   #20
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I kinda like the PRC.... and the .260 Rem. Too bad I’m a .25 guy. It gets awfully expensive if we like everything.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:12 AM   #21
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The creed has been an interesting deal.

They made accurate ammo and chambered it in rifles that were built without a ton of slop in em. They shot well because arm and ammo were mechanically correct. And they didn't kick like a mule.

Add in dial scopes being accepted by large chunk of shooting public and the popularity of steel plates/PRS type situations, and we have a win.

On game, it mirrors the Swede. Which is a wonderful place to be. The number of redundant rounds is staggering. Marketing folks are targeting (Please excuse) the younger generation(s), before they are educated about what's already available. The Creed design offers nothing that several others already did. But it's the golden goose of the moment. And if you are a shooter, choosing a popular round is often wise, because arms and ammo availability is important.

Given the trend to long range shooting (Not necessarily hunting. Hitting plates requires a lot less hp than killing large game. But that's a whole other kettle o fish), I am not shocked that folks are slow to move away from light recoiling rounds.

222 Rem had warm welcome many moons ago. Accurate and easy to shoot are two ingredients that are necessary for popularity among the masses.
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:20 PM   #22
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What’s everyone’s thought on the 6.5x284 Norma? I have a savage 111 chambered in it and absolutely love it. Have yet to shoot at an animal with it, but Im confident at hitting steel at 1,000 yards. The down side is I cannot shoot it much as ammo is hard to find here. I bought out sportsman’s supply in Albany, Medford, Salem, and bend... unfortunately none of them ever replenished there stock and I’m am down to my last box of 140gr. Accubonds.
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Old 10-04-2019, 06:07 PM   #23
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It sort of depends on which version you have. There is the short action version and the long action version. Basically it has to do with how the ammo is loaded and not the cartridge its self. Your rifle is one of the good long action versions with a loaded over all length that allows for more powder and higher velocity. You can shoot the short action ammo in your rifle but it won’t perform nearly as well. That doesn’t actually help you find ammo but it does help you know which ammo you need to have.
Any time someone has one of the less popular cartridges it’s beneficial to save all your brass should ammo become difficult to locate. Ya never know when you’ll need to rely on handloads.

People need to be aware of the different ammo lengths so they don’t try shooting the long stuff in their short action rifle. Norma lists the LOA as 3.228 inches which is what your Savage needs to be fed. Some ammo is as short as 2.881 inches.

Any ammo that doesn’t feed easily, should not be fired in that particular rifle.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:46 PM   #24
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Buy your ammo online.
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Old 10-04-2019, 11:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Buy your ammo online.
I plan to, I want to find some 140gr VLD’s, I hear great things about that bullet.
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Old 10-05-2019, 06:13 AM   #26
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“I hear great things about that bullet.” Yes it does seem to get things done very well but it is on the heavy end in that caliber and if you’re after a deer hunting bullet, you might consider something lighter. Not that the deer cares one way or the other.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:05 AM   #27
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The creed is a kissing cousin to the Finnish 6.5x47 Lapua. Another 300-1000 target round but modern so loaded to modern high pressure unlike the pre 1900 era 6.5x55 swedish neighbor. The swedes shoot a lot of moose with than round.

For hunting I like a super accurate cartridge with a hunting bullet stuck in it. Best of both worlds.


I have an accurate creed hunting rifle. I consider it to be as sweet as can be for varmints up to mule deer to 600 with 129-140 gr bullets. Thats where it stops. No elk no moose no 1000 yd deer shots.

It is low recoil low blast lightweight short action and bucks the wind better than most. The wind is my enemy. Trajectory is a constant.

I like a rifle I can shoot all the time for proficiency, see my hits and misses and not burn out my barrel. I also like to hunt with a rifle/cartridge combo that can shoot better than I can.

I get tired of people knocking the creedmoor out of ignorance. It is perfect the way it is and dosent need to be hot rodded. I load for it to take advantage of more bullets and in most cases the sweet spot for accuracy is not the hottest load.

If Hornady had called it ' the 6.5 western' it would probably be a very popular mule deer cartridge.

Last edited by Tesoro; 10-09-2019 at 05:01 AM.
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