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How to bait a hook, commercial style (herring)

148K views 71 replies 56 participants last post by  metal_jaw 
#1 · (Edited)
This tutorial is on indefinite hold...
 
#28 ·
Hi John...

(1) How many boats run baited crowbars vs. just straight hardware?

>>> It really depends. There are some guys who fish straight "junk" all the time. Other factors: time of year (junk early in the year, switching to more bait later in the year); also..how good is the bite? When fishing is scratchy, bait is an advantage. But when it is really wide open (the last 5 years in the west coast have been real good), I mean thick as cement, biting anything they throw out, and a good boat is getting 200 - 400 fish a day, they are using junk since they can work the gear a lot faster. A guy might start a trip off with 2, 3, or 4 hundred baits made up... if the fishing is hot & he goes through them, he might not be able to keep up with sticking new baits for every leader, hence more junk in the water. Last, bait has been much more expensive the last few years, hence more use of junk.

(2) Should I not put a roll in 2 hook, RSK herring rigs when I run them behind a flasher?

>>> Well John I know that YOU know how several variables come together to affect how you bait runs...like the leader test, leader length, length from the flasher to the hook, trolling speed, and how you actually set the hooks in the bait. So the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies. Plus, our descriptions of "roll" and "wobble" might not be that different. What you definitely don't want is a bait that spins quickly on its axis.

Also, you gotta realize the different reasons for using different gear on a commercial boat, such as: (a) large single hooks are easier to store / stage / process in a trolling pit vs an RSK with short hooks, which will make a mess...(b) large single hooks are way stronger (than a thin mooching style hook) and you need this big strong hook since there is very little give between that 30 lb'er and the trolling wire, and (c) on a commercial boat, to be fast and efficient, you need to be able to remove the hook from the leaders. Re-threading a new bait on an RSK would probably take too much time.

Sorry for the long answer...but John, you deserve it :flowered: :flowered:
 
#29 ·
Thanks Mark. :redface:

I figured the ******* would be all about speed and simplicity. I will have to see about getting some of this gear at Englunds and giving it a try.

Roll for me is a 1 foot or bigger barrel roll on the bait. Not the quick flip, flip, flip of a Coho bait that spins on it's axis. The RSK is pretty high maintenance but it allows just about anyone to get a nice bait roll.

The combo that is working on 'Pilar' is a 4 foot 60# leader and a 4/0 trailing hook with a 5/0 top hook snelled fixed on the leader 4 inches apart.

60# because you hook Halibut and lings. This is all dragged behind an Abe and Al about 18" long with reflecto tape on one side. The action is a slowwwwwwww roll with a little jerk, jerk from the flasher as it rotates. At some point I am going to try Threemuch's trick of pinning the flasher on the ball to get rid of that drag on the line.
 
#33 ·
Great post and great follow ups. Man, I am continually amazed at how little I know compared to so many on this board. I am impressed! I'm not worthy. :bowdown: By the way, I am in Anchorage on business, it is way daylight out still and the guys are fishing the creek below downtown hard for big chinook.
 
#35 ·
- leader length behind the flasher can vary quite a bit...smaller bait on a smaller flasher might only be 24 inches. Large bait & large flasher up to 3 - 4 feet. Also, it should be proportional to the distance between the flasher & the sinker or downrigger wire so the flasher is located about 1/3 of the total length, on the bait side. On commercial gear the total leader length can be 18 to 24 feet long, or even longer if big hogs are being targeted. Your troll speed affects it too (faster=longer; slower=shorter). You just have to experiment around with all the variables.

- Any commercial gear store has these hooks (Scheiwe, Englunds, Harry's, SeaMar, etc)

- the 5 to 6 inch hooks have a 7/0 to a 9/0 gap. For hook size I don't distinguish between "sport" and "commercial" gear; rather, I choose the hook by the bait size. For a mojo Yaquina Bay herring, it needs a large hook. For a 4 to 5 inch bait, I use a 4 inch hook in a 4/0 size. Everything is proportional!

They are sized by: length / gap. For example a 3 1/2 - 4/0 is a 3.5 inch long, 4/0 gap.
 
#39 ·
So not only is the RCD (ala Frankonator) known to this group but the FBR too? Or is the FBR really an inside joke? Excellent description of the baiting process. Down here our intent seems to be to get as tight a spin (bullet rotation) on the bait as possible when fishing for Kings.
 
#41 ·
Hi Mark Mc,

First, thanks so much for this post. If there were a "best of ifish" award for both the quality of the advice and the quality of the presentation, this post would have my vote for sure.

Second, I went to Englund's in Astoria yesterday (13 July 2004) with a printout of the first three pages of your post as reminders of what I wanted to buy. Well, guess what? There's been a run on the cable hooks and there were absolutely no snaps left at all. Moreover, Englund sales guys said, "What is going on here?" and were more than curious to look at the printout.

Finally, Sonny Maahs's snaps have been backordered for a long time, according to the folks at Englunds. Is there another source? Are they still available?

PostScript: While I was trolling the store for other necessities, a member of the staff rushed out to tell me that more cable hooks had just arrived. They refilled the bins and I was able to choose a few more to complete my kit. So, if other ifishers were frustrated by a lack of choice at Astoria Englunds, check again.

I also picked up several lengths of "commercial blades" and some Gamakatzu siwash hooks. And, 'till we find Mr. Maahs's clips, I found the escutcheon pins and rubber bands that can also be used to affix the bait.

Kind regards to all,
 
#42 ·
Me again,

So, using the phone number visible in Mark Mc's original
posting, I called Maahs Marine and spoke with Donna.

She says, "Well, Englund just called yesterday and we're filling their order..."

Sonny, also known as Bill, is out fishing this AM. At 74, it's getting harder, but a grandson has stepped in.

Lastly, the reason that Maahs snaps are a bit slow to market from time to time is that Bill and Donna make them by hand. They sit and watch TV, Donna makes a start, and Bill finished up.

"But after a while, your hands cramp up." Donna explained.

So, that's the real secret here: Mark Mc is fishing with hand-made snaps. Hand-made jigs, hand-made spinners, hand-tied leaders are all fine, but I've never knowingly fished a hand-made snap.

Kind regards,
 
#44 ·
Mark Mc,

I can see how the crowbar and cable hooks could be inserted in the bait per your instructions.

What about the blade/hook combinations? Would these rigs need to be pulled through the bait with a threader?

G'day
 
#45 ·
Hi Phoebus (what's your real name BTW? Can I just call you Apollo? It's easier to spell),

Regarding "baiter blades"... I use those quite a bit too. In one regard, they are actually easier to thread than a cable, because they are stiff. So no, I usually don't need a threader for the blades.

However, because they use a short shank spoon hook, the eye creates a bulge, especially on a smaller (read narrower) bait. So if you go up the side of a bait, it can tear a noticable hole upon entry, and a bulge from the eye may show, which is an imperfection, and we don't like any imperfections on our bait. If you do a split tail however, the eye enters from inside so there is no tearing, and the bulge is less noticable.

Good luck....... Mark
 
#46 ·
I fished using a simplified version of Mark's baiting technique on 7 and 8 August, off the Columbia River. I used the cable hook and fresh herring (from TackleTime) and targetted Coho.

I baited the hook by first running the shank of the hook through the mouth of the bait and out the vent. Then I ran the shank from vent to mouth, turned the hook up along side the tail of the bait, and secured the mouth with a Maah clip.

I trailed a 6 foot leader (w/ a swivel midway) behind a diver, trolled ~2 knots w/ 8-15 (2') pulls. We took 8 Coho divided evenly between natives and hatchery fish. My four fishing partners (2 each day) each caught their first salmon, which was rather cool.

What I particularly like about this setup for Coho is the ease with which the cable hooks can be extracted from the native fish.

Kind regards,

PhoebusGroup
aka David King
 
#47 ·
Mark,

One last post. On 18 Aug, 5 miles south of the CR buoy, trolling at 40 ft. w/ a downrigger and using your cable-hook terminal tackle, my friend Nolan Van Every caught a 29 pound Chinook. It was great to see that fish chewing on the cable shank of that hook rather than on a leader, especially
after the second and third run from the boat.




G'day

PhoebusGroup
aka David King
 
#49 ·
Mark,

Great Post, I'm ancious to give this a try on Land-Lock Chinook in Couer d'Alene Lake, where we currently use Helmet Head Herring setups.

Do you know if these Clips/Hooks can be ordered online anywere. If not is Englunds in Portland or ?, I work up and down the Wa. Or. Coastline on occasion so I can swing by Englunds once I know where it is!

Thanks Cory
 
#50 ·
Englunds does indeed have them. Good luck, Mark

edit / p.s. From previous posts it sounds like Englunds (at least Astoria) is sometimes out of stock. You might also try Seattle Marine (do a web search). They have a website but it's a little hard to navigate. Just call their 800 number and see if they have them in stock. Shipping would obviously be real cheap....
 
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