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Old 05-30-2020, 07:35 PM   #1
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Default SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

The SCOTUS decided yesterday that states can limit constitutional rights in the name of public health. In this case, the states (California in the present case) denied citizens their 1st amendment right to freely assemble and worship.

It begs the question, what other rights can/will states deny in the name of public health? Several states have already asserted that gun violence is a public health crisis and have stated an intent to limit people's 2nd Amendment rights as a method of addressing the 'public health crisis'. With the 1st amendment ruling yesterday, it seems to pave the way for states to begin denying us any number of rights.

As a sidebar, the SCOTUS refused to hear a similar 1st amendment case out of Chicago because, at the last possible moment, the city of Chicago decided to allow religious groups of up to 100 to gather, which made the case "moot".

Interestingly, NYC denied gun owners the right to transport their properly licensed/permitted firearms outside NYC. After years of litigation that case went to the SCOTUS and, again at the last minute, NYC changed their rule making that case "moot" as well.

The pattern seems to be emerging that jurisdictions are denying people their Constitutional rights for months or years as the case works its way through the judicial system then, at the last minute, the jurisdictions will rescind their illegal rule to "moot" the case. That seems like a dangerous precedent the SCOTUS is allowing to go on unchecked.

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Old 05-30-2020, 07:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

But the California case went forward... and it ruled to not be in violation. The major reason in difference between the two arguments being church’s are more akin to concerts and social events rather than grocery stores.

The rest of what you wrote is basic justice system. How many times have you gone for jury duty and say in the room to be dismissed. The reason, there was either a bargain or the case was dropped.


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Old 05-30-2020, 07:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Thanks GWB ... not.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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The major reason in difference between the two arguments being church’s are more akin to concerts and social events rather than grocery stores.
The fallacy in that argument is that concerts and social events are not specifically protected by an amendment to the Constitution. That's a non-valid apples-to-oranges comparison.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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The rest of what you wrote is basic justice system.
So, you're apparently fine with the state taking away your 2nd amendment rights, or perhaps your 4th amendment rights (search and seizure), or perhaps your 5th amendment rights, or your 8th amendment rights (cruel and unusual punishment), or any of the others if it is in the name of public health? I mean, they'd only take those rights away for a few months or a few years as the case works its way through the judicial system. What harm could you possibly come to in those months or years? That's the precedent the SCOTUS is setting with this pattern.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Unfortunately SCOTUS isn't setting precedent, they are simply upholding their previous rulings. I think most legal experts expected this ruling.

Don't like it, I agree with you.....a Governor declares a health emergency, and has ZERO controls over her....firearms, global warming, social media.....will all be coming to a state near you, and sooner rather than later.

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Old 05-30-2020, 08:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Unfortunately SCOTUS isn't setting precedent, they are simply upholding their previous rulings.
I'm certainly no constitutional scholar, and I agree with you that the "moot" cases were not precedent setting except in the fact that the government's illegal actions were allowed to take effect during the time of the judicial proceedings. We've already seen situations where venues are selected because the party knows how that court will rule (e.g., Hawaii, 9th Circuit, etc.) and cause a case to drag out for years all the while our rights are being denied.

I believe the fact that the California case actually went to trial and opinions were issued by the justices does set that as precedent. I'm open to being shown to be wrong though.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Jacobsen vs Massachusetts, 1905.

SCOTUS ruled that individual liberty is subject to the police power of a state, in the case of health (mandatory vaccinations).



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Old 05-30-2020, 09:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Jacobsen vs Massachusetts, 1905.

SCOTUS ruled that individual liberty is subject to the police power of a state, in the case of health (mandatory vaccinations).
And it only took the state 115 years to figure out how to move from prudent implementation to abuse our individual liberties. Sad, sad day...
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:38 PM   #10
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Default SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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So, you're apparently fine with the state taking away your 2nd amendment rights, or perhaps your 4th amendment rights (search and seizure), or perhaps your 5th amendment rights, or your 8th amendment rights (cruel and unusual punishment), or any of the others if it is in the name of public health? I mean, they'd only take those rights away for a few months or a few years as the case works its way through the judicial system. What harm could you possibly come to in those months or years? That's the precedent the SCOTUS is setting with this pattern.

I wouldn’t assume how I feel. You can get butt hurt all you want with me, but the ones you should be mad at are the ones who argued the case. The justices ruled on the arguments. In the end churches are more akin to social gatherings than grocery shopping. And they were not discriminating against church’s because the same rules applied to all social gathering and not a policy pointed directed at church’s. Now if the ban was directly against churches it would have been its own issues.

So where were you when the patriot act is continually renewed? Where were you when rendition was taking place. My views are on ifish against those laws as they violate 4th, 5th, and 8th.

We already have our rights taken away to the second the middle of the last century, thanks to the NRA so yea run with that all you want.

As for precedent, here you go. Some of these cases are over 200 years old.


https://www.americanbar.org/news/aba...h-to-pandemic/

And what did our founding fathers think of it? Here you go.


https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-pa...demic-response

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Old 05-30-2020, 10:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Unfortunately SCOTUS isn't setting precedent, they are simply upholding their previous rulings. I think most legal experts expected this ruling.

Don't like it, I agree with you.....a Governor declares a health emergency, and has ZERO controls over her....firearms, global warming, social media.....will all be coming to a state near you, and sooner rather than later.

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Old 05-30-2020, 10:23 PM   #12
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Voting matters!

Conservative courts ruled and conservative courts upheld. Sounds like voting didn’t help conservatives too much.


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Old 05-30-2020, 11:24 PM   #13
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Etc., etc., etc., ...
Seems I touched a nerve there...
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Conservative courts ruled and conservative courts upheld. Sounds like voting didn’t help conservatives too much.
Actually no. Roberts (who knows what he is) plus the liberal members of the Supreme Court made the ruling.

Voting does matter for the Mayors and Governors though.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:04 AM   #15
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Conservative courts ruled and conservative courts upheld. Sounds like voting didn’t help conservatives too much.


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5-4 vote, one more conservative judge and guess what?
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Today many California Churches are conducting services. Seems they have over ruled SCOTUS and the Governor.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:31 AM   #17
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5-4 vote, one more conservative judge and guess what?
It's always "one more conservative judge" and it always will be. Roberts was supposed to be that guy, and so was Kennedy, and Souter, and O'Connor, etc.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

I doubt they’d be willing to bust into a church and arrest everyone.
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Old 05-31-2020, 03:52 PM   #19
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I doubt they’d be willing to bust into a church and arrest everyone.
Might cause a riot and when those people go off, well it will be a full on battle.
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

It is interesting that all the "protesters", many of whom are not wearing masks and are certainly not practicing social distancing, are allowed to exercise their 1st Amendment rights without restriction, but people who want to exercise their 1st Amendment rights by attend a religious service are not allowed to do so.

And yet, local governments do not even attempt to justify their obvious hypocrisy. Instead, they turn our streets over to the hoodlums and demand that the rest of the citizenry observe their arbitrary 8:00P curfew.
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Old 06-01-2020, 04:16 AM   #21
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I, for one, like scotus, actually care about humanity. Anyone who thinks different doesn't care about humanity plain and simple black and white.

Last edited by huntercgr; 06-01-2020 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Edited political statement
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:10 AM   #22
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It is interesting that all the "protesters", many of whom are not wearing masks and are certainly not practicing social distancing, are allowed to exercise their 1st Amendment rights without restriction, but people who want to exercise their 1st Amendment rights by attend a religious service are not allowed to do so.

And yet, local governments do not even attempt to justify their obvious hypocrisy. Instead, they turn our streets over to the hoodlums and demand that the rest of the citizenry observe their arbitrary 8:00P curfew.

The forces behind this game want fear, anxiety, and this civil unrest. Stifling the ability to seek comfort with your fellow church members is favorable to their plan.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Note that several large health groups are now calling racism and police brutality a "public health issue".

Opens the door another crack.

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Old 06-01-2020, 08:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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It is interesting that all the "protesters", many of whom are not wearing masks and are certainly not practicing social distancing, are allowed to exercise their 1st Amendment rights without restriction, but people who want to exercise their 1st Amendment rights by attend a religious service are not allowed to do so.

And yet, local governments do not even attempt to justify their obvious hypocrisy. Instead, they turn our streets over to the hoodlums and demand that the rest of the citizenry observe their arbitrary 8:00P curfew.
Last night Portland declared the "protesters" an unlawful assembly, lobbed tear gas into the crowd and broke them up with police in riot gear. I guess that could also be done to churches next Sunday morning, just to avoid the hypocrisy.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:53 AM   #25
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Last night Portland declared the "protesters" an unlawful assembly, lobbed tear gas into the crowd and broke them up with police in riot gear. I guess that could also be done to churches next Sunday morning, just to avoid the hypocrisy.
That would probably sound reasonable to some people on the left.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:31 AM   #26
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Roberts (who knows what he is)...
That would be the Chief Justice of the United States for the last 14 years
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:08 AM   #27
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That would be the Chief Justice of the United States for the last 14 years
I can’t tell if you got the point, so I’ll make it more clear. Roberts doesn’t seem to be liberal or conservative which is not to say he’s fair. It’s just you have no idea what position he might take.

He’s obviously not liberal if he votes with the conservatives and not conservative if he votes with the liberals, and he does both.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:33 AM   #28
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How nice would it be to simply have SC judges.......not 'conservative' judges, or 'liberal' judges. I surmise the original intent was to have a nonpartisan, nonpolitical SC system to interpret our constitution when necessary. At this point we generally have nothing other than an arm of a political party based upon which side installed the judge. Reality aside, as far as I am concerned this will always (100%) be wrong. Anytime there is a ruling that does not appear to be made for political or partisan motivations it is a good day for the tenets this country was founded upon. However, with literally and historically hundreds of 5-4 decisions (based upon which party installed the judges) those days are few and far between. An independent judiciary would be the best thing that ever happened to our constitution. That was the original intent. Now how often do we even need to have a vote?
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:36 AM   #29
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I can’t tell if you got the point, so I’ll make it more clear. Roberts doesn’t seem to be liberal or conservative which is not to say he’s fair. It’s just you have no idea what position he might take.

He’s obviously not liberal if he votes with the conservatives and not conservative if he votes with the liberals, and he does both.
Yes, quite the contortionist.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:43 AM   #30
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Yes, quite the contortionist.
He's probably the closest thing to what a SC judge SHOULD be who is sitting today.

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Old 06-01-2020, 10:45 AM   #31
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I can’t tell if you got the point, so I’ll make it more clear. Roberts doesn’t seem to be liberal or conservative which is not to say he’s fair. It’s just you have no idea what position he might take.

He’s obviously not liberal if he votes with the conservatives and not conservative if he votes with the liberals, and he does both.
Of course I got the point

Did it ever occur to anyone that he is just himself, making constitutionality determinations on a case-by-case basis?

It's almost like just doing the job and not worrying about labels.
One can do that with a lifetime appointment.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:47 AM   #32
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I would feel more comfortable if the SC ruled 9-0 or even 8-1 instead of 5-4. 5-4 just seems too political to me
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:47 AM   #33
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Good to see a few people here realize the supreme court was never supposed to be filled with partisan hacks.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:59 AM   #34
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At this point we generally have nothing other than an arm of a political party based upon which side installed the judge.
This is just not true. Despite all the noise and drivel during the time between his nomination and swearing-in, Kavanaugh is probably the most impartial of all the current SCOTUS justices (either he or Roberts), and Gorsuch is nowhere near the most conservative and is not as far right as the four that are labeled "liberal" are left.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:59 AM   #35
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Blueduck: Agree 100%. The party system is a mess.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:04 AM   #36
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There is only one constitution, & it sure would be nice if there was no us vrs them mentality in our highest court system, it's become like we live in two different countries, with two different constitutions, & that's the big problem with lifetime appointees, it opens the door for partisan politics, favoritism, & corruption, with little to zero accountability, & or fear of loosing their job, it's beyond time SCOTUS's get voted in, or out.
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:30 PM   #37
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There is only one constitution, & it sure would be nice if there was no us vrs them mentality in our highest court system, it's become like we live in two different countries, with two different constitutions, & that's the big problem with lifetime appointees, it opens the door for partisan politics, favoritism, & corruption, with little to zero accountability, & or fear of loosing their job, it's beyond time SCOTUS's get voted in, or out.
This may be an option for state judges. Even some federal lower court judges. It is not an option for Higher federal court judges. Nor should it be.
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:39 PM   #38
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This may be an option for state judges. Even some federal lower court judges. It is not an option for Higher federal court judges. Nor should it be.
Agreed.

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Old 06-01-2020, 05:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

I think there are two factors at play here.

First, there is the unequal protection of the unalienable rights detailed in the 1st Amendment. Whether it is free speech or freedom of religion, there is one 1st Amendment and it needs to apply to everyone equally. It is not being applied equally here; the burglers/anarchists/Antifa seem to have greater liberties than those who would practice their religion. That's not right.

Second, we have constitutional constructionists versus revisionists. The revisionists believe that the constitution should be amendable by the courts, not just SCOTUS, to fit "modern times". If that doesn't scare the stuffings out of you, you're not paying attention! Revisionism is how we go from being free to being Europe... or China, which is the intention of Soros and his kind. Constructionists say the founding fathers got it right the first time. If someone doesn't like what the Constitution says, the founders built-in a mechanism to change it, and that mechanism does NOT include activist judges or anarchy like is being demonstrated on the streets of cities across the nation. If you don't like what the Constitution says, go find another country to overthrow and let us know how well that works for you.
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:44 PM   #40
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Hubbs: Nobody is taking away your religion. Go and pray. The folks you say have greater liberties than you are being arrested, tear gased, flash banged, and so on.
What would be the motivation to stop people from practicing religion?
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Hubbs: Nobody is taking away your religion. Go and pray. The folks you say have greater liberties than you are being arrested, tear gased, flash banged, and so on.
What would be the motivation to stop people from practicing religion?
Obviously, peaceful protesters who follow the rules aren’t having any issues, but nice try to try to defend them. Too bad that most of us know better.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:24 PM   #42
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Obviously, peaceful protesters who follow the rules aren’t having any issues, but nice try to try to defend them. Too bad that most of us know better.
I don't know about that. I saw them clear the peaceful protesters out of Lafayette park with tear gas and rubber bullets today so IMPOTUS could have a photo-op in front of St. Johns church
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:25 PM   #43
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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I don't know about that. I saw them clear the peaceful protesters out of Lafayette park with tear gas and rubber bullets today so IMPOTUS could have a photo-op in front of St. Johns church
I think your opinion of “peaceful” is different than most of us. If you are told to leave an area and don’t, you aren’t peaceful.

Also, you call it photo-op and others of us show who is in charge. You might want people to be afraid. The rest of us ... not so much. We are tired of hired white protesters causing trouble.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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I think your opinion of “peaceful” is different than most of us. .

Now you're just being argumentative.
If this was about 2A, the posts would be way different.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:29 PM   #45
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Now you're just being argumentative.
If this was about 2A, the posts would be way different.
Not really, if people are open carrying and asked to leave, they should leave. I’m for order, but you may be for chaos.

I do think that the opinions would be different if the last President was still President.
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:51 PM   #46
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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I don't know about that. I saw them clear the peaceful protesters out of Lafayette park with tear gas and rubber bullets today so IMPOTUS could have a photo-op in front of St. Johns church
I watched CNN and Fox News side by side at the gym tonight.

It was almost like watching events in different countries, what happened at the Whitehouse, on those 2 channels.

Depends on what your preferred indoctrination type is.



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Old 06-01-2020, 06:53 PM   #47
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

Where's the outcry referencing The Posse Comitatus Act?

A different administration makes it all OK? That's clear to see.

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Old 06-01-2020, 07:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: SCOTUS sides with states limiting constitutional rights

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Where's the outcry referencing The Posse Comitatus Act?
Why are you trying to defend white guys destroying black communities? Again, maybe watch the Atlanta Mayor speech. Then, think about it.
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