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Old 03-13-2018, 03:14 PM   #1
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Default New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

Here we go again... with some of the same groups that also wish to "protect" sea lions...

http://www.kxl.com/environmental-gro...lhead-chinook/

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Old 03-13-2018, 03:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

I might be wrong but that looks like a group trying to force the Corps to reconnect over 70% of the salmon and steelhead's historic spawning habitat.
Reconnecting over 400 miles of prime salmon and steelhead doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:05 PM   #3
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I’m with freespool.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

I went to each of these groups home pages and could not find a word about any of them protecting sea lions. I did find that they all are all for a healthy environment and ecosystem in which wild fish can thrive.

Here is an article the Native Fish Society posted today on the lawsuit.

https://nativefishsociety.org/news-m...-and-steelhead
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

the sea lions are protected because us humans almost exterminated them in the past. now we are on the verge of doing it to our sacred fish. do we fight over who gets to kill and eat the last few of them. or do we band together with all the groups and find a way to get them back by having them spawn.

rather than killing every thing that gets in the way of our killing them first.
that only delays the inevitable and insures it.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

You might not know it, but the environmentalists are carrying the sport anglers water.
Sport angler advocacy groups need to step up and join this fight.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

Thanks, Yep... got all that. Ran across it and jus pas'in it along.
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Old 03-13-2018, 07:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

I know what springer fishing was like in 2002 when over 150K showed up, 250K is unimaginable.


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Old 03-13-2018, 11:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

I hate dams - I don't see this as a negative thing. They aren't even attacking your hatchery fish this time around!
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:18 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hydrophilic View Post
I hate dams - I don't see this as a negative thing. They aren't even attacking your hatchery fish this time around!
New ways to make clean power. Check out what was proposed and is happening in Martinsdale (spelling) Montanna. It would be an amazing day to sit with grand kids someday and watch the return of the Celilo falls... I think that would be incredible... Will it happen with barge traffic??? Politics??? Probably not, but seeing those falls restored to the way they were just 80 or so years ago would be amazing.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

My God...winter steelhead extinct in the McKenzie...

The giant school of bass in the photo was a nice touch.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

Looks like a solid lawsuit. Even if they end up settling somewhere in the middle, we all benefit. It's unfortunate that lawsuits are the only way things get done nowadays, but it's nice to see people pushing for the existing laws to be enforced.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockinson man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrophilic View Post
I hate dams - I don't see this as a negative thing. They aren't even attacking your hatchery fish this time around!
New ways to make clean power. Check out what was proposed and is happening in Martinsdale (spelling) Montanna. It would be an amazing day to sit with grand kids someday and watch the return of the Celilo falls... I think that would be incredible... Will it happen with barge traffic??? Politics??? Probably not, but seeing those falls restored to the way they were just 80 or so years ago would be amazing.
Yeah that has always been a dream of mine as well. I tell people that we have the 6th largest waterfall in the world nearby, the only catch is its under water. Actually saw a bumper sticker a year ago that said free Celilo Falls.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockinson man View Post
New ways to make clean power. Check out what was proposed and is happening in Martinsdale (spelling) Montanna. It would be an amazing day to sit with grand kids someday and watch the return of the Celilo falls... I think that would be incredible... Will it happen with barge traffic??? Politics??? Probably not, but seeing those falls restored to the way they were just 80 or so years ago would be amazing.
It's fun to dream of seeing some of the historic rapids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Columbia_River

However, I've heard that the removal of any one of the Columbia River dams would be the greatest environmental remediation project the world had seen. There's tons of harmful material from smelting and Hanford entombed in the silt behind the dams.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:55 AM   #15
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You might not know it, but the environmentalists are carrying the sport anglers water.
Sport angler advocacy groups need to step up and join this fight.
Yea though I walk through the Valley of Death, I shall not drink, I shall make it another day.

The bright pink, cherry red water looks inviting, full of a new breathe of life and ever quenching.

I WILL NOT DRINK THE KOOL-AID!
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:33 AM   #16
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Freespool: "Sport fishing advocacy groups need to step up." This has been grinding at me for years. They are such pansy's with few words and no action.

There are substitutes for dams and other offensive methods of producing electricity plus reducing the need.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DogZilla15 View Post
Freespool: "Sport fishing advocacy groups need to step up." This has been grinding at me for years. They are such pansy's with few words and no action.

There are substitutes for dams and other offensive methods of producing electricity plus reducing the need.
No dams will be harmed, this project isn't about dam removal, it's simply retrofitting dams with no fish passage, thereby reconnecting 70% of the historic salmon and steelhead spawning and rearing habitat.
Our government operates under the "squeaky wheel gets the grease", the louder the squeak, the bigger the reaction.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

In addition to claims focused on, among other things, the Corps failure to complete measures required of it under the 2008 BiOp (including fish passage measures), the complaint also includes a claim alleging the Corps is violating the ESA because it is funding Chinook hatcheries in the upper Willamette that are causing unauthorized “take” of listed Upper Willamette River Chinook salmon. The complaint alleges such “take” is unauthorized because NMFS has yet to approve Hatchery and Genetic Management Plans (HGMPs) for those hatcheries. See Complaint at 28-29, avail. at https://nativefishsociety.org/news-m...-and-steelhead.

It is not clear to me based on the complaint what remedy plaintiffs seek vis a vis hatchery operations.

NOAA is in the process of reviewing HGMPs submitted by the Corps (in cooperation with BPA and ODFW). A draft EIS has not yet been issued, so final approval is likely many months, if not a year or more, away. See
http://www.westcoast.fisheries.noaa....of-intent.html
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:41 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hockinson man View Post
New ways to make clean power. Check out what was proposed and is happening in Martinsdale (spelling) Montanna. It would be an amazing day to sit with grand kids someday and watch the return of the Celilo falls... I think that would be incredible... Will it happen with barge traffic??? Politics??? Probably not, but seeing those falls restored to the way they were just 80 or so years ago would be amazing.
THere were locks at Celilo before there was a dam and the barges and other watercraft got around just fine.

The 8-mile-long The Dalles - Celilo Canal, located three miles north of The Dalles, was completed in 1915, creating a steamboat waterway around the Fivemile Rapids ("Long Narrows"), Tenmile Rapids ("Short Narrows"), and Celilo Falls. Combined with the Cascade Locks near Bonneville, it provided a clear journey from the Pacific Ocean to Lewiston, Idaho, a distance of 500 miles.
The Celilo canal was 8.5 miles long, 65 feet wide, and eight feet deep at low water. There were five locks which were 45 feet wide and 300 feet long. The upper end of the canal was just above Celilo Falls and the lower end was just below Big Eddy, three miles above The Dalles. The canal had a drop of 81 feet in the Columbia River. After fifteen years of construction, the first steamers went through the lock on April 28, 1915. (From columbiariverimages.com/Regions/Places/the_dalles-celilo_canal.html)

Good luck with the Corps of Engineers and Feds!
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:54 AM   #20
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

Fun to talk about, but the Columbia river dams aren't going anywhere... ever.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:53 PM   #21
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Fun to talk about, but the Columbia river dams aren't going anywhere... ever.
That's a bold statement considering the Missoula floods happened around 12,000 years ago! Maybe during our time, yes. But the river will eventually reclaim itself.
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
I know what springer fishing was like in 2002 when over 150K showed up, 250K is unimaginable.


Curious as to why you are telling of the great memories of springer fishing that year, when you post a chart with steelhead numbers? By the way, you added a zero. Your "smell test" has been applied. Crazy thing is, I actually agree with you this time. Fish passage would be awesome.

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Old 03-14-2018, 03:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Swifty27 View Post

However, I've heard that the removal of any one of the Columbia River dams would be the greatest environmental remediation project the world had seen. There's tons of harmful material from smelting and Hanford entombed in the silt behind the dams.
Plus the flood control these dams help to manage.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:19 PM   #24
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[QUOTE=Joe C;15378250]Looks like a solid lawsuit. Even if they end up settling somewhere in the middle, we all benefit. It's unfortunate that lawsuits are the only way things get done nowadays, but it's nice to see people pushing for the existing laws to be enforced./ [QUOTE]

Yes, it is a shame that the environmental organizations have to force the government agencies that are supposed to be protecting and enhancing fish to do what they are lawfully bound to do. But, these agencies are merely the lackeys of the powers that be that want nothing to do with fish enhancement because it will mean less money for their pockets and their shareholders. So, the agency lackeys (and not all of them are slaves of the capitalists) merely do their bidding and the environmentalists have to sue them to protect fish.

It is a good thing that at least someone has the guts to take on the agencies who won't protect fish. The Oregonian article said it has been 10 years since there was a promise to enhance at the dams on the Willamette system for fish passage, including tribs and nothing has been done to accomplish that. So, what else are the environmentalists supposed to do except sue them to get some protection and enhancement for fish? Congratulations to them and I wish all the success they can get from the courts. But, don't expect too much because there are a few capitalist lackeys in the court system also.

Meanwhile, 99% of modern society continues to sleep through all of this; or keep their noses in their video games.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:20 PM   #25
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Does anyone have an accurate accounting of all these lawsuits? We never hear what becomes of them. All we hear is another lawsuit has been filed, seems like one a year.

Seems like they are just a waste of time, stalling the corps from doing their work.

Question, do you really think a petty lawsuit is going to rush them into a hundred million dollar fish passage project? Getting a ladder over a 400 foot dam has never been done. Its going to take more time, regardless of the lawsuit.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DogZilla15 View Post
Freespool: "Sport fishing advocacy groups need to step up." This has been grinding at me for years. They are such pansy's with few words and no action.

There are substitutes for dams and other offensive methods of producing electricity plus reducing the need.

The Deschutes River Alliance has filed suit against the destroyer of the Deschutes River, which is PGE and the tribes they have co-opted to share the money from the destruction. They are taking action and showing guts against the mighty PGE which swindled the public and government with their bogus tower.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
No dams will be harmed, this project isn't about dam removal, it's simply retrofitting dams with no fish passage, thereby reconnecting 70% of the historic salmon and steelhead spawning and rearing habitat.
Our government operates under the "squeaky wheel gets the grease", the louder the squeak, the bigger the reaction.
]]



Your first paragraph is absolutely true. Besides, there will never be a dam taken out on the Columbia or Willamette, primarily because of flood control.

However, your second paragraph is very questionable as the government agencies will fight this lawsuit as hard as they can to avoid having to retrofit dams to provide fish passage. They have no interest in helping fish. It is too expensive and involves too much difficulty in upsetting current practices.

You watch when the defendants file an answer. They will deny all the claims and say the lawsuit has no merit, instead of admitting that they were wrong; or asking the plaintiffs to hold off on them filing an answer until they can come up with a response that satisfies the plaintiff's desire for fish passage. They will fight tooth and nail to defeat this lawsuit. Otherwise, they would have done on their own what the plaintiffs are asking the court to force them to do. They are the worst hypocrites on the planet; or at least right up there with those who are, if they aren't.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:43 PM   #28
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Does anyone have an accurate accounting of all these lawsuits? We never hear what becomes of them. All we hear is another lawsuit has been filed, seems like one a year.

Seems like they are just a waste of time, stalling the corps from doing their work.

Question, do you really think a petty lawsuit is going to rush them into a hundred million dollar fish passage project? Getting a ladder over a 400 foot dam has never been done. Its going to take more time, regardless of the lawsuit.
What about putting a ladder through the dam? Not a ladder, but a migratory tunnel. Time to start possibility thinking.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:59 PM   #29
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What about putting a ladder through the dam? Not a ladder, but a migratory tunnel. Time to start possibility thinking.

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Old 03-14-2018, 06:07 PM   #30
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B. Coastal,
I googled up my idea and found it as a recommendation. Check it out. Section 1.4.


http://chehalisbasinstrategy.com/wp-...port_Final.pdf
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:26 PM   #31
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Well if you would have just posted that the first time, it wouldn't have sounded so insane. My apologies. Don't want to read all of that, though. Did they implement that? There, or somewhere else?

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Old 03-14-2018, 06:43 PM   #32
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Well if you would have just posted that the first time, it wouldn't have sounded so insane. My apologies. Don't want to read all of that, though. Did they implement that? There, or somewhere else?

BC
Don't know if they implemented it. I just read the post about impossible to go over, and I thought easier to tunnel through and posted that. Then I went out and searched and was amazed to find out an engineering firm proposing it. I need to go read the whole study myself.

The 2014 paper was the strategy and guide for the plan. It looks like they are done planning and starting execution ...
http://chehalisbasinstrategy.com/aquatic-species-plan/
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:51 PM   #33
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Both upstream and downstream fish passage for the flood retention only RCC dam configuration would be accomplished by the construction and operation of up to nine, 9-foot-high-by-12-foot-wide run of the river conduits through the base of the dam. These conduits would also allow debris and sediment transport during non-flood operation conditions. These conduits would be designed to mimic stream flows in the natural channel and will be equipped with debris guards and racks on the upstream entrances to prevent large debris from entering/clogging the conduits. The fish passage system will have gated control designed to close under low head conditions when operation of the reservoir is changed to a flood retention objective. The upstream gates would be used for normal operations and could be either top sealing radial or vertical slide gates. The downstream gates would be closed to prevent water from the spillway stilling basin backing up into the conduits during high flows that would occur during emergency spillway flow conditions. Hydraulic evaluations indicate that flow conditions through conduits could meet a target 2 feet per second requirement for effective fish passage.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:57 PM   #34
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I don't think that would be feasible in an existing dam. That is a new construction proposal, right?

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Old 03-14-2018, 06:59 PM   #35
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]]



Your first paragraph is absolutely true. Besides, there will never be a dam taken out on the Columbia or Willamette, primarily because of flood control.

However, your second paragraph is very questionable as the government agencies will fight this lawsuit as hard as they can to avoid having to retrofit dams to provide fish passage. They have no interest in helping fish. It is too expensive and involves too much difficulty in upsetting current practices.

You watch when the defendants file an answer. They will deny all the claims and say the lawsuit has no merit, instead of admitting that they were wrong; or asking the plaintiffs to hold off on them filing an answer until they can come up with a response that satisfies the plaintiff's desire for fish passage. They will fight tooth and nail to defeat this lawsuit. Otherwise, they would have done on their own what the plaintiffs are asking the court to force them to do. They are the worst hypocrites on the planet; or at least right up there with those who are, if they aren't.

Just to be clear, the Corps has agreed to put fishpassage on 13 Willamette Basin federal flood control dams.
The issue isn't if, but when.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:03 PM   #36
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I don't think that would be feasible in an existing dam. That is a new construction proposal, right?

BC
I think it is construction of a new flood control dam. Would it be feasible in an existing dam? I'm an optimist so I would say yes. Others may say different.
I used to operated a concrete saw when I was younger and I could cut through anything with a little water cooling applied.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:27 PM   #37
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Philip,

It looks like that would be feasible but only for a dam that wouldn't hold back water year round. I.e. a non power generating dam. Imagine a big earthen embankment dam with tunnels from upstream to downstream that would allow the river to flow in impeded most of the year, then during flodd conditions would be closed off to limit the flow to some extent while holding back the flood water and passing them slowly. The columbia, snake, and Willamette plants could not be altered in this way , at that point they may as well tear the dam out.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by metal_jaw View Post
Philip,

It looks like that would be feasible but only for a dam that wouldn't hold back water year round. I.e. a non power generating dam. Imagine a big earthen embankment dam with tunnels from upstream to downstream that would allow the river to flow in impeded most of the year, then during flodd conditions would be closed off to limit the flow to some extent while holding back the flood water and passing them slowly. The columbia, snake, and Willamette plants could not be altered in this way , at that point they may as well tear the dam out.
Doesn't Bonneville dam spill water to push smolts downriver? That's not going through the turbines is it?
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:01 PM   #39
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FERC requires fish passage as a criteria for relicensing.
These 13 dams will be facing relicensing soon.

http://www.nyuelj.org/2017/10/ferc-f...orthwest-dams/


The current regulatory process will—at least marginally—improve fish passage at many hydropower facilities in the near future as older dams apply for relicensing through FERC. Privately operated hydroelectric dams can only operate under a license from FERC.[20] For older dams, the cost of installing fish passage during the FERC relicensing process can exceed the cost of removal, thereby incentivizing the dam owner to opt for removal.[21] For dams that successfully obtain a license to continue operation, the current statutory relicensing framework requires FERC to include any recommended fish passage upgrades as mandatory conditions in the license.[22] Due to new environmental statutes and regulations passed during the lifetime of the preceding license, many hydroelectric dams in the Columbia River basin are likely to require passage upgrades.[23]
FERC is in the midst of a massive relicensing period.[24] The FERC relicensing process has had a tremendous impact on fish passage in the Columbia River basin in recent history, as both Oregon and Washington were included in FERC’s list of states requiring the most dam relicenses between 2005 and 2015.[25] As discussed below, absent a congressional amendment of the FPA, the FERC relicensing process will mandate fish passage upgrades at Northwest hydroelectric facilities for decades to come
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:41 PM   #40
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You are right Phillip. I know the snake dams definitely spill a lot of water from now till the fall for that, and I'm sure the.rest of the Columbia dams besides grand coulee and chief Joseph do also. I drive by them a lot and have read about their fish spill or whatever it is. But the dams already do that so not really a need to cut any holes I don't think?
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:15 PM   #41
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The Deschutes River Alliance has filed suit against the destroyer of the Deschutes River, which is PGE and the tribes they have co-opted to share the money from the destruction. They are taking action and showing guts against the mighty PGE which swindled the public and government with their bogus tower.


Is funny that an affiliated group is advocating the same thing for Detroit and it is being heralded as a good idea.


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Old 03-15-2018, 05:22 AM   #42
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Just to be clear, the Corps has agreed to put fishpassage on 13 Willamette Basin federal flood control dams.
The issue isn't if, but when.
When dealing with the Corps, asking the question "when" is identical to asking "if". Get real, if these jokers were serious about fish passage they would have figured something out when these dams were put in. If not then, why has it taken them so far, more than 50 years and counting, to do it.

Bottom line is that they will never do it because they are capitalist lackeys and the powers have no interest in helping fish survive. It is too costly, time consuming, troublesome and difficult. So, just let them go extinct. The powers and their lackeys in the agencies are doing a very good job of getting the extinction accomplished. The Willamette are great examples of the downward slide toward extinction.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by freespool View Post
FERC requires fish passage as a criteria for relicensing.
These 13 dams will be facing relicensing soon.

http://www.nyuelj.org/2017/10/ferc-f...orthwest-dams/


The current regulatory process will—at least marginally—improve fish passage at many hydropower facilities in the near future as older dams apply for relicensing through FERC. Privately operated hydroelectric dams can only operate under a license from FERC.[20] For older dams, the cost of installing fish passage during the FERC relicensing process can exceed the cost of removal, thereby incentivizing the dam owner to opt for removal.[21] For dams that successfully obtain a license to continue operation, the current statutory relicensing framework requires FERC to include any recommended fish passage upgrades as mandatory conditions in the license.[22] Due to new environmental statutes and regulations passed during the lifetime of the preceding license, many hydroelectric dams in the Columbia River basin are likely to require passage upgrades.[23]
FERC is in the midst of a massive relicensing period.[24] The FERC relicensing process has had a tremendous impact on fish passage in the Columbia River basin in recent history, as both Oregon and Washington were included in FERC’s list of states requiring the most dam relicenses between 2005 and 2015.[25] As discussed below, absent a congressional amendment of the FPA, the FERC relicensing process will mandate fish passage upgrades at Northwest hydroelectric facilities for decades to come
FERC ain't going to do a damn thing for fish passage as part of the relicensing process. Look at the Idaho Power dams on the Snake which have no fish passage. FERC just keeps giving them one year licenses to keep operating the status quo of no fish passage as they are applying for another license and applying to the courts to avoid any fish passage requirements.

Look at the PGE dams on the Deschutes. They got relicensed by putting up a bogus tower that has not only ruined the fish populations on the river but also the insect populations. The deck has been stacked by society against fish for years and that is not going to change. I really do not understand why you and others simply do not recognize that society does not give a damn about anadramous fish and will do all it can to see that they are driven to extinction.

Since society attributes no value to fish except as items for consumption, fish farms are the answer. So, what if there is occasional escapement when there are no wild fish left to ruin by having them mix. The escapement is just an expense/loss to be accorded its proper position on the balance sheet. It is nice to see the environmentalists make the effort, but, in the long run, it won't make any difference because of societal indifference to the existence of fish.

Furthermore, society is completely indifferent to the value of the sport of fishing as a sport, not as a commercial activity. Society's attitude is that no sport fishing in its traditional manner is just fine because that activity can be replaced by high speed video games.

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Old 03-15-2018, 06:35 AM   #44
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Some info from the Corps of Engineers concerning fish and passage on the Snake.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CORPSFOSH.pdf (1.80 MB, 19 views)
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:56 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by metal_jaw View Post
You are right Phillip. I know the snake dams definitely spill a lot of water from now till the fall for that, and I'm sure the.rest of the Columbia dams besides grand coulee and chief Joseph do also. I drive by them a lot and have read about their fish spill or whatever it is. But the dams already do that so not really a need to cut any holes I don't think?
I've been told they are run of the river dams and they spill water constantly but fish have limited and no passage depending on the dam. This is the first time I've ever heard of fish tunnels or conduits but it looks pretty exciting.

Fish passage however doesn't fix the low flow conditions of reservoirs that lead to high mortality of outgoing smolts. One step at a time.
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:07 AM   #46
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FERC ain't going to do a damn thing for fish passage as part of the relicensing process. Look at the Idaho Power dams on the Snake which have no fish passage. FERC just keeps giving them one year licenses to keep operating the status quo of no fish passage as they are applying for another license and applying to the courts to avoid any fish passage requirements.

Look at the PGE dams on the Deschutes. They got relicensed by putting up a bogus tower that has not only ruined the fish populations on the river but also the insect populations. The deck has been stacked by society against fish for years and that is not going to change. I really do not understand why you and others simply do not recognize that society does not give a damn about anadramous fish and will do all it can to see that they are driven to extinction.

Since society attributes no value to fish except as items for consumption, fish farms are the answer. So, what if there is occasional escapement when there are no wild fish left to ruin by having them mix. The escapement is just an expense/loss to be accorded its proper position on the balance sheet. It is nice to see the environmentalists make the effort, but, in the long run, it won't make any difference because of societal indifference to the existence of fish.

Furthermore, society is completely indifferent to the value of the sport of fishing as a sport, not as a commercial activity. Society's attitude is that no sport fishing in its traditional manner is just fine because that activity can be replaced by high speed video games.

Four very large dams are currently in the process of being removed from the Klamath River.
Can you guess why?
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:02 PM   #47
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Four very large dams are currently in the process of being removed from the Klamath River.
Can you guess why?
nothing has been done but to collect money from the power users.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:11 PM   #48
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That's a bold statement considering the Missoula floods happened around 12,000 years ago! Maybe during our time, yes. But the river will eventually reclaim itself.
Lol. I also look forward to the dinosaurs coming back!
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:17 PM   #49
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nothing has been done but to collect money from the power users.
I guess it's how you define change, there's change you can see, and there's change you can't see.
Here's what's happening that you don't see.

http://www.times-standard.com/articl...NEWS/170229795
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:38 PM   #50
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Fun to talk about, but the Columbia river dams aren't going anywhere... ever.
'Ever' is an awfully long time... I don't think they were engineered to last quite that long in the first place, so at some point it's gonna get vastly more expensive to maintain/update them. That's been the breaking point for most of the smaller dams that have already been taken out so far ~ despite any noise or fanfare about environmental issues it still always boils down to $$$, once the owners decide that they cost more to keep up than they're worth. I don't think that's fundamentally any different with the bigger dams; it's just a much larger cost figure so it'll take a lot longer to get there, but that's still inevitably on the near side of Forever.

The simple fact is dams are last century's technology (if not the century before, but obviously there were a few minor advances up through the golden age of dam building in the mid-1900s). Some folks simply lack the imagination to conceive beyond that which is already familiar, but fortunately others come along from time to time w/ more vision to advance our collective fortunes. Somehow we made it from stone tools to forging metal to satellites and smartphones ~ no doubt there were similar naysayers at every step of the way proclaiming the next crazy idea would never happen, and yet here we are...

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Old 03-15-2018, 03:44 PM   #51
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Default Re: New Lawsuit Filed over Steelhead & Salmon

The dam removal plan — known as the Klamath Hydroelectric Settlement Agreement — would be the largest dam removal project in U.S. history.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:51 PM   #52
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Four very large dams are currently in the process of being removed from the Klamath River.
Can you guess why?
Yes, and there two dams on the Elwha that were removed. But, dams are only removed when society has no use for them. Then, they throw a bone or two to the environmental community to fake them out and make them think that society is coming around. By the way, how much of those four Klamath dams have actually been removed? Given what has happened to the Klamath salmon and steelhead, if those dams were removed in the next minute it would not make any difference to the fish because they are in such bad shape. Ever notice how the ocean seasons for salmon have been so messed up because there are no fish from the Klamath and Sacramento.

Can you guess why those fish are gone? Can you guess whether society has something to do with their downfall? Can you guess why there are no sardines in the ocean? Can you guess why Columbia salmon runs currently suck? Can you guess why the Willamette winter steelhead are near extinction? Can you guess why the fall salmon runs on the Oregon coast sucked last year? Can you guess why the Columbia fall salmon runs sucked last year? Can you guess why the Pacific Ocean is a mess as far as salmon are concerned? Can you guess why warm water pelagics are showing up more often off the Oregon coast? Can you guess why BC might be shutting down all fishing for chinook off its coast this summer? Tired of guessing?
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:38 PM   #53
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Yes, and there two dams on the Elwha that were removed. But, dams are only removed when society has no use for them. Then, they throw a bone or two to the environmental community to fake them out and make them think that society is coming around. By the way, how much of those four Klamath dams have actually been removed? Given what has happened to the Klamath salmon and steelhead, if those dams were removed in the next minute it would not make any difference to the fish because they are in such bad shape. Ever notice how the ocean seasons for salmon have been so messed up because there are no fish from the Klamath and Sacramento.

Can you guess why those fish are gone? Can you guess whether society has something to do with their downfall? Can you guess why there are no sardines in the ocean? Can you guess why Columbia salmon runs currently suck? Can you guess why the Willamette winter steelhead are near extinction? Can you guess why the fall salmon runs on the Oregon coast sucked last year? Can you guess why the Columbia fall salmon runs sucked last year? Can you guess why the Pacific Ocean is a mess as far as salmon are concerned? Can you guess why warm water pelagics are showing up more often off the Oregon coast? Can you guess why BC might be shutting down all fishing for chinook off its coast this summer? Tired of guessing?
No they are being removed because Pacific Corp said it would be economically unfeasible to comply with fish passage.
FERC relicensing requires fish passage, the dam owner makes the call, adapt or remove.
You seem to have a computer that only works in whine mode, you should expand your horizons, the answer isn't always what you think.
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:16 PM   #54
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California rivers have a problem, the dam is an easy target, but don’t be fooled those waters will run warm and hot as we crunch on our almonds.


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Old 03-15-2018, 09:09 PM   #55
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California rivers have a problem, the dam is an easy target, but don’t be fooled those waters will run warm and hot as we crunch on our almonds.


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Kinda the problem across the board. Not just California.

Gov promises too many folks water. Dams, lakes, ag, power, yada yada

Someone is going home with hurt feelings.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:46 AM   #56
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No they are being removed because Pacific Corp said it would be economically unfeasible to comply with fish passage.
FERC relicensing requires fish passage, the dam owner makes the call, adapt or remove.
You seem to have a computer that only works in whine mode, you should expand your horizons, the answer isn't always what you think.
I understand why you say that, but I "whine" because I have seen what society has done to anadramous fish since society showed up in the West in force only a little more than 100 years ago. Society has continued to do more harm to those fish than good, despite throwing the fish an occasional bone. If you think fish are in great shape and society reveres, honors, protects and enhances fish, then we simply disagree. By the way, how is the Corps doing in getting all that habitat above the Willamette systems dams open for fish? In addition, you did not answer any of the questions I asked about the state of things in various areas? Afraid of having to admit that society trashes fish?

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Old 03-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #57
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No they are being removed because Pacific Corp said it would be economically unfeasible to comply with fish passage.
FERC relicensing requires fish passage, the dam owner makes the call, adapt or remove.
You seem to have a computer that only works in whine mode, you should expand your horizons, the answer isn't always what you think.
Before you pat society on the back for the Klamath gift to fish, why don't you consider that PGE would not have gotten its Deschutes dams relicensed without fish passage and that fish passage also was impossible on those dams. So, PGE came up with its bogus tower plan which FERC bought hook, line and sinker and now we have those dams relicensed for 30 more years and the Deschutes fish going to hell along with the insect populations. How is that a win for fish, Mr. Optimist?
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:03 AM   #58
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Before you pat society on the back for the Klamath gift to fish, why don't you consider that PGE would not have gotten its Deschutes dams relicensed without fish passage and that fish passage also was impossible on those dams. So, PGE came up with its bogus tower plan which FERC bought hook, line and sinker and now we have those dams relicensed for 30 more years and the Deschutes fish going to hell along with the insect populations. How is that a win for fish, Mr. Optimist?
Your pessimism and lack of any real fisheries knowledge comes across as nothing more than sour grapes.
If you think PGE circumvented the FERC relicensing criteria, then file a law suit.
Further I fail to see any correlation between relicensing dams on the Deschutes and the fish bypass project on the Willamette.
This isn't a relicensing issue, it's the Corps agreeing to put fish bypass on 13 federal flood control dams, thereby reconnecting over 400 miles of prime spawning and rearing habitat.
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:53 PM   #59
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I'm all for dam removal as long as we can build more nukes and coal fired plants. If we go with coal we don't need to export as much and those coal trains, don't need them, we just build the plants near the coal. Next I would recommend following dam removal we look at the timber industry and how they cause silt problems in the spawning areas. We can get rid of logging and enjoy the natural beauty of trees and improve spawning habitat. Oh yeah I forgot since tires rolling under our vehicles wear down they release almost half million pounds of heavy metals to the environment yearly. We need to stop using vehicles with rubber tires its going to impact us all. I'm sure I forgot something but I'll think of it later after I eat my Chinese imported naturally organic gene modified salmon steak.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:46 PM   #60
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I'm all for dam removal as long as we can build more nukes and coal fired plants. If we go with coal we don't need to export as much and those coal trains, don't need them, we just build the plants near the coal. Next I would recommend following dam removal we look at the timber industry and how they cause silt problems in the spawning areas. We can get rid of logging and enjoy the natural beauty of trees and improve spawning habitat. Oh yeah I forgot since tires rolling under our vehicles wear down they release almost half million pounds of heavy metals to the environment yearly. We need to stop using vehicles with rubber tires its going to impact us all. I'm sure I forgot something but I'll think of it later after I eat my Chinese imported naturally organic gene modified salmon steak.
This isn't about dam removal, nuclear power, coal, timber industry, tires, heavy metals or organic GMO salmon, it's about reconnecting 400 miles of historic spring chinook and winter steelhead spawning habitat.

http://law.lclark.edu/live/news/38433

As many as 325,000 Chinook and 220,000 steelhead once navigated up Willamette Falls to spawn every year, the environmental groups wrote in a statement. In 2017, an estimated 5,880 wild Chinook and 822 winter steelhead returned to their native spawning grounds, a drop off of some 99 percent over the last 150 years, said Mark Sherwood, executive director of the Native Fish Society.
Both species have been listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act since 1999.
In 2008, the fisheries service issued a Biological Opinion that mandated changes to some of the 13 dams operated by the Corps or Engineers as part of the Willamette Valley Flood Control Project. Four of those dams are too tall for fish to navigate and block between 40 and 90 percent of Chinook and steelhead spawning habitat on key tributaries on the Willamette, the environmental groups said.
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