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Old 09-14-2020, 07:39 AM   #1
DogZilla15
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Default After The Fires

What we need is a massive reseeding effort to anchor all the ash and exposed soil before the big rains of winter was it all away. Wonder if this has cross anyone's mind who has the authority to make it happen? Somebody gotta wake up and get this underway asap.

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Old 09-14-2020, 07:44 AM   #2
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I'm thinking we may be looking at some extensive landslides before we get some vegetation established.
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Old 09-14-2020, 07:49 AM   #3
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I dont know if we need to reseed, plants and trees should start regrowing after this rain as long as it didnt get too hot.

With the La Nina confirmed though, it may be a winter of slides around the recent fires.
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Old 09-14-2020, 07:51 AM   #4
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Talk to any firefighter out here where I live (there's plenty around) and they'll tell you there is too much ground litter in the forest. Most anything planted now would lay dormant until next Spring.
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Old 09-14-2020, 08:02 AM   #5
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The Santiam, McKenzie and Willamette will be a mess this winter and next spring.


You can bank on that. (pun intended)
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Old 09-14-2020, 08:04 AM   #6
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Default Re: After The Fires

Something as simple as aerial grass seeding would work in some places and would sprout with first good rain. Better than nothing.
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Old 09-14-2020, 08:30 AM   #7
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Oregon Field Guide did a story on the recovery of the forest after the Biscuit fire.
https://watch.opb.org/video/oregon-f...23-episode-11/
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Old 09-14-2020, 08:53 AM   #8
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Why do we always feel like we need to fix it? The environment is messed up because we try to fix it.
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: After The Fires

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Originally Posted by lingslayer View Post
The Santiam, McKenzie and Willamette will be a mess this winter and next spring.


You can bank on that. (pun intended)
Just what I was thinking.
The Willamette probably will never be clear enough to fish this Spring.
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:52 AM   #10
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Something as simple as aerial grass seeding would work in some places and would sprout with first good rain. Better than nothing.
I'd vote for some of that food plot seed mix that they used to grow lots of big deer in some areas of the country.
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:58 AM   #11
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Why do we always feel like we need to fix it? The environment is messed up because we try to fix it.
Because we stopped using/utilizing it.
"Hands Off" isn't management.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:03 AM   #12
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Human intervention isn't all bad, it just seems that way because that's mostly what we talk about.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:07 AM   #13
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There will be prime deer and elk habitat, unless they spray defoliants.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:21 AM   #14
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There will be prime deer and elk habitat, unless they spray defoliants.
Of course they will. And that defoliant will wash into the rivers and kill the plant life that the is the base of the food chain for our rivers also.

That land isn't managed that land for diverse, ecologically rich forests. It is managed to be Douglas Fir Tree farms, to the detriment of everything else.

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Old 09-14-2020, 10:25 AM   #15
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Yup.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:32 AM   #16
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X2
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:33 AM   #17
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Interesting read.


https://www.economist.com/leaders/20...fornia-burning
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Old 09-14-2020, 11:47 AM   #18
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Because we stopped using/utilizing it.
"Hands Off" isn't management.
Yes it is. Most of the time the best one.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:07 PM   #19
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Something as simple as aerial grass seeding would work in some places and would sprout with first good rain. Better than nothing.

It's a different situation but aerial seeding was done on the Lower Deschutes and its uplands after the big Power Station Fire of 2018. I think this was seen as an opportunity to get jump start on having native grasses re-established rather than the invasive cheat grass. Also, control of noxious invasive weeds continues - with mixed results.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:11 PM   #20
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Yes it is. Most of the time the best one.
No it isn't.
Either one of those.
We can't turn every acre of public land into wilderness areas.
That's a fool's mission that will return catastrophic results.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:20 PM   #21
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No it isn't.
Either one of those.
We can't turn every acre of public land into wilderness areas.
That's a fool's mission that will return catastrophic results.

That's because you have a myoptic view of forest management.
As has been stated before, forest have many values, not just how much money can we extract from it, and how fast can we do it.
Time for a new forest management model, one where water quality and fish habitat count.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:26 PM   #22
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That's because you have a myoptic view of forest management.
As has been stated before, forest have many values, not just how much money can we extract from it, and how fast can we do it.
Time for a new forest management model, one where water quality and fish habitat count.
Sure, let's increase the fuel load by a factor of 5 or 6, instead of just 2 or 3 like we've done over the last 26 years.


It'll work THIS TIME fer sure man!


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Old 09-14-2020, 01:32 PM   #23
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That's because you have a myoptic view of forest management.
As has been stated before, forest have many values, not just how much money can we extract from it, and how fast can we do it.
Time for a new forest management model, one where water quality and fish habitat count.
YES

Too bad the dept of forestry turned down the board nomination of Debora Johnson, someone who understands fire as a natural management tool because she helped write a textbook on it. She was replaced by someone with a background in banking/finance. Another win for timber industry forest management.
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:46 PM   #24
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YES

Too bad the dept of forestry turned down the board nomination of Debora Johnson, someone who understands fire as a natural management tool because she helped write a textbook on it. She was replaced by someone with a background in banking/finance. Another win for timber industry forest management.

No surprise the timber has gotten what it wants from Oregon, which is total abdication of enforcing federal clean water standards.
Who suffers the most from this action, the fish and those that cherish them.
Follow the money from the timber special interests to the pockets of the politicians.


https://projects.oregonlive.com/poll...y-money/part-1


"Oregon has betrayed its environmental legacy. It almost sold an 82,500-acre state forest full of old growth trees to a logging outfit that donated $37,000 to key decision makers including Gov. Kate Brown. Oregon trails almost the entire country in oversight of water polluters. On a long list of environmental protections, Oregon is dead last among West Coast states."
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:04 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by lingslayer View Post
No it isn't.
Either one of those.
We can't turn every acre of public land into wilderness areas.
That's a fool's mission that will return catastrophic results.
Really, catastrophic results like fires.
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:11 PM   #26
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There will be prime deer and elk habitat, unless they spray defoliants.
Studies show the old Tillamook Burn area having great deer populations in the decades after the fire(s). Yacolt Burn is another. I don't know if fire was the only factor.
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:14 PM   #27
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Really, catastrophic results like fires.
When the ash and mud is clogging all the gravel beds next year, and the rivers are too muddy to rear the smolts to their optimum size next spring, we can revisit your argument for increasing the fuel load with even more hands off policies.
In the meantime we can all enjoy this marvelous air quality the fires have gifted us with.
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:42 PM   #28
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No it isn't.
Either one of those.
We can't turn every acre of public land into wilderness areas.
That's a fool's mission that will return catastrophic results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lingslayer View Post
When the ash and mud is clogging all the gravel beds next year, and the rivers are too muddy to rear the smolts to their optimum size next spring, we can revisit your argument for increasing the fuel load with even more hands off policies.
In the meantime we can all enjoy this marvelous air quality the fires have gifted us with.
Then when it gets better year after year for hundreds of years until there is another fire call me.
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Old 09-14-2020, 02:43 PM   #29
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I'd vote for some of that food plot seed mix that they used to grow lots of big deer in some areas of the country.
Montsanto would be on board with this
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Old 09-14-2020, 03:14 PM   #30
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Then when it gets better year after year for hundreds of years until there is another fire call me.

https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_os_rp-24.pdf
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:28 PM   #31
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make with a 1957 study on the East wind.
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Old 09-14-2020, 05:00 PM   #32
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make with a 1957 study on the East wind.

What he's trying to say in so many words is the only good tree is stump.
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Old 09-14-2020, 05:21 PM   #33
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make with a 1957 study on the East wind.
Well, in the interest of spelling it out to you,...
The winds won't stop.
The lightning won't stop.
So if your idea is to add MORE fuel over the next (few?) decades, you're cooking up a disaster far worse than this year's.

Not to mention the fact that you're probably a big proponent of doing something about AGW/climate change, but we know that will take a century or so to fix,...


So, let's recap.
You believe summers will get hotter and dryer.
Yet we know lightning storms won't abate, and we know the hot/dry east winds are relatively common, and are the result of weather pattern(s) that haven't changed for well over a century, (likely longer) and are inherent to this climate and topography.

Yet you want me/us to believe even more dead/dry fuel available in the forest understory, to fuel fires like we've seen this year, is a good thing.

And that this combination you're proposing would cause the fires to stop, for a hundred years or more?

And that all this scorched earth will be great for the rivers and the wildlife?



Well alrighty then, I guess we're done here.
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Old 09-14-2020, 05:31 PM   #34
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Yup we are done. By your comments I can tell you have never been to a wildfire and actually seen what burns and what doesn’t. Nor do you understand what fuel loads are and where they come from. So since you have no understanding of the basics I cannot have an adult conversation with you.
Have a pleasant day.
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Old 09-14-2020, 05:33 PM   #35
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Kids kids.
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Old 09-14-2020, 11:26 PM   #36
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After the fires? Morels!
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Old 09-14-2020, 11:58 PM   #37
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Shouldn’t we wait and see a good Ariel of the damage that has took place before jumping on the “oh we should (blank) train”? From the ground the fires appear to have damaged buildings more than it has the forest.


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Old 09-15-2020, 03:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: After The Fires

Before this thread gets closed as well, here is a novel way to do a bit of reseeding in burned areas:

https://www.boredpanda.com/border-co...mpaign=organic
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:10 AM   #39
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Before this thread gets closed as well, here is a novel way to do a bit of reseeding in burned areas:

https://www.boredpanda.com/border-co...mpaign=organic
I like it!
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:21 AM   #40
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Cool. Now everyone and their dog will be out there.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:46 AM   #41
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We shouldn't assume those forests will be back anytime soon. Some of the high intensity burns in CO 20 years ago haven't come back.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:39 AM   #42
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What we need is a massive reseeding effort to anchor all the ash and exposed soil before the big rains of winter was it all away. Wonder if this has cross anyone's mind who has the authority to make it happen? Somebody gotta wake up and get this underway asap.
Land managers certainly know that reseeding is in their toolbox.

A review of forest reseeding studies of the past 40-50 years found that reseeding isn’t effective at reducing erosion and it prevents native plant recovery.

https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/download/45980/PDF

Mulching works better for a quick, temporary fix.
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:48 AM   #43
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I hope they do a better job with these then then did down around Davis Mountain. It is nothing but scrub brush with no trees growing where the fire was years ago.
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Old 09-15-2020, 01:24 PM   #44
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Yes it is. Most of the time the best one.


Not once we have wreaked the “havoc” we have. Harvest timber for over 50-60 years through various means then up and quit 30 years ago and go with the hands off approach. Hasn’t worked out very well.


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Old 09-15-2020, 02:23 PM   #45
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SSPey... Depends on what is used to reseed. Gotta get the ball rolling no matter what.
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:09 PM   #46
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Again and again on here and elsewhere people post that there's "no logging" on the national forests. That claim is simply false.

On the Mt Hood National Forest in 2018 35.3 million board feet were cut.
That equates to nearly 9000 log truck loads.

On the Willamette National Forest in 2017 66 million board feet were cut, (or more than 16,000 log truck loads).with a goal of 100 million board feet in 2020 as cited below.

https://www.capitalpress.com/state/o...a1084e858.html
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Old 09-15-2020, 03:13 PM   #47
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Default Re: After The Fires

'spool and I do agree in one thing.

This is a great opportunity to Phase out the defoliation chemicals on private timberland.



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Old 09-15-2020, 03:30 PM   #48
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We shouldn't assume those forests will be back anytime soon. Some of the high intensity burns in CO 20 years ago haven't come back.
But what did the powers that be, do around St Helens after the big blast off?
Wouldn't that be fairly comparable to what we just experienced?
Perty sure they didn't re-seed the whole area there!
And the fishies are back too!
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Old 09-15-2020, 04:28 PM   #49
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Again and again on here and elsewhere people post that there's "no logging" on the national forests. That claim is simply false.

On the Mt Hood National Forest in 2018 35.3 million board feet were cut.
That equates to nearly 9000 log truck loads.

On the Willamette National Forest in 2017 66 million board feet were cut, (or more than 16,000 log truck loads).with a goal of 100 million board feet in 2020 as cited below.

https://www.capitalpress.com/state/o...a1084e858.html
Yep, I spend a lot of time in the area being burned by the Riverside Fire. There's been a pretty reasonable amount of logging up there in recent years. They started doing o lot of thinning over the last few years also, in some of the areas also. Definitely still a human managed landscape.
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Old 09-15-2020, 04:51 PM   #50
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Again and again on here and elsewhere people post that there's "no logging" on the national forests. That claim is simply false.

On the Mt Hood National Forest in 2018 35.3 million board feet were cut.
That equates to nearly 9000 log truck loads.

On the Willamette National Forest in 2017 66 million board feet were cut, (or more than 16,000 log truck loads).with a goal of 100 million board feet in 2020 as cited below.

https://www.capitalpress.com/state/o...a1084e858.html

This provided almost enough annual volume for one average sized dimension sawmill and a very small percentage of annual volume for a pulp/chip operation. Better than nothing I guess. When I google Oregon's annual timber harvest by owner I get:

"Federal Owns 60% - Harvests 8% of Timber. The federal government owns 60% of Oregon's forests, but the average annual federal harvest was just 8% of total volume during the 2000s. Private Owners of 34% of the forest- Harvest 82% of Timber."

Last edited by gkeylock; 09-16-2020 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:23 PM   #51
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'spool and I do agree in one thing.

This is a great opportunity to Phase out the defoliation chemicals on private timberland.



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Old 09-16-2020, 07:23 AM   #52
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[quote=Fishfeet;16473667]But what did the powers that be, do around St Helens after the big blast off?
Wouldn't that be fairly comparable to what we just experienced?
Perty sure they didn't re-seed the whole area there!
And the fishies are back too! [/quote/]

I don't know how the St Helens blowdown compares to a big fire Fishy, but this 2002 fire in CO was similar to ours and very little regen or replanting in the 18 years since.

"These 18-square miles burned hot and fast in a single day, part of what - until last month - was the biggest fire in Colorado recorded state history. It was driven by how dense the forest was because of past fire suppression, that combined with high winds and extreme drought."

Nearly 20 years later there's no regen other than a little around the edges under surviving trees, worse at lower altitudes.

It sounds great to say replant half a million acres, but where's the $ coming from for that if the USFS can't even afford to do fire prevention treatments now? Anyone know how much of the B&B (100k acres 10 yeas or so ago) has been replanted or regenerated? It doesn't look like much when I drive or hike around.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:21 AM   #53
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I'm not sure how comparable a burn in Colorado is with one on the west side of the Cascades. Dry vs wet climate, different species of plants and trees, different elevations. Those same differences exist between eastern and western Oregon.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:22 AM   #54
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Default Re: After The Fires

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyk View Post
Again and again on here and elsewhere people post that there's "no logging" on the national forests. That claim is simply false.

On the Mt Hood National Forest in 2018 35.3 million board feet were cut.
That equates to nearly 9000 log truck loads.

On the Willamette National Forest in 2017 66 million board feet were cut, (or more than 16,000 log truck loads).with a goal of 100 million board feet in 2020 as cited below.

https://www.capitalpress.com/state/o...a1084e858.html
AND not anywhere close to what it should be !!!
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:52 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Don G Baldi View Post
I'm not sure how comparable a burn in Colorado is with one on the west side of the Cascades. Dry vs wet climate, different species of plants and trees, different elevations. Those same differences exist between eastern and western Oregon.

Generally speaking Eastside (Pine) forests have evolved over time with frequent low intensity burns. Pine tends to be shade tolerant which means they will reproduce well under an existing older canopy. Westside (Douglas Fir) forests have evolved by recovering from a catastrophic event (ie. Windstorm, significant fire event). Douglas Fir tends to be shade intolerant which means the need a canopy opening to regenerate. Thus, generally speaking, controlled burns are a good management tool in Pine type forests, not so much in Douglas Fir forests.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Don G Baldi View Post
I'm not sure how comparable a burn in Colorado is with one on the west side of the Cascades. Dry vs wet climate, different species of plants and trees, different elevations. Those same differences exist between eastern and western Oregon.

I wondered about that too, but looking at the west side of the B&B fire makes me wonder.

The Biscuit fire was on the west side in 2002 and 18 years later has large areas that have never been replanted and have regenerated into ground cover and hardwoods. I don't know, just saying don't assume those doug fir forests are gonna be back in the next couple decades. Same financially strapped USFS, political divisions, etc.

Anyone know how the middle santiam wilderness made out?
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:27 PM   #57
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