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Old 09-15-2019, 05:19 PM   #1
Tesoro
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Default Old Mexico

This is an interesting article on cartels vs the citizens ( auto defensas) who are just trying to maintain a life by having to fight for it. The Govt is out of the picture so its bad guys vs people like us just trying to go to work and have a normal life without being extorted, robbed and rap'd.

Most people dont realize how bad it is down there and that there is whole generation of youths who have been indoctrinated into an ultra violent way of living. One day many of them will be moving up our way..

https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-mex...story?ref=wrap

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Old 09-15-2019, 06:56 PM   #2
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I read even the avocado farms are getting hit by the cartels. Valuable crops. The police are on the take so the locals have to police it for themselves.
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:27 AM   #3
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The cartels are extorting businesses across the board. Most of them arent drug cartels but just local gangs declaring a territory and then working a protectionism scheme similar to the mafia in chicago etc of days past. If there are drugs to be sold in their area then they control that too. If other gangs move in then there are street wars until things are settled.

Every now and then usa news will report a mexican night club fire that killed ie 38 people. That is a fire set by the 'cartels' who toss in some molotovs and then lock the doors to make a statement to the other night club owners who are thinking of going to the police instead of paying up weekly.

Even places like Cancun are expected to become ghost towns like acapulco as the level of extortion has now reached the top tier like bankers, doctors, architects and general contractors. Their families are in threat of kidnapping if they dont pay on a schedule. Many are moving out and noone is replacing them.

Scary place!! This post isnt about politics or gun control but just a caveat to people thinking mexico is safe as long as they go on vacation to touristic areas. That is not true unless they never leave an all inclusive resort. When shite happens the mexican news eliminates or changes the facts on adverse reporting for their tourism areas.

Brookings, Oregon, is sounding real good these days..!
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:33 AM   #4
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Somehow they gave got to be reined in. Spread the word to the citizens to leave and then start bombing the heck out of those places by other nations?
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:45 AM   #5
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Several years back, I said to the wife, I don’t want to support such a corrupt country any longer. We haven’t been back. Besides, the old Cabo was nothing like the new Cabo. Had a tough time negotiating the E. Cape, very disappointed. The only way to enjoy the E. Cape is to go with a group. Besides, Oregon has enough tuna to satisfy anyone, no need to travel. Albacore are also better eating. I do miss the warm weather and The Office.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:38 AM   #6
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Amazing a country can get so out of hand. But that simply shows what a government concerned first with it's own self interest does. Imagine some of our own representatives in the same situation, they would love it. I can see the vigilante group's operating in places like Chicago, Baltimore and several California cities. And I wouldn't blame the people there for supporting them either. Nobody should have to live in fear of their neighbors! And when government fail you there is not a lot of other choices! Of course some would say just shut down the cartels and the problem goes away. Maybe so but the drugs is just a product, it's the money that keeps it that way. Really sad way for a people to have to live!
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:49 AM   #7
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Last Winter we went down to Rocky Point (Puerto Penasco) to spend a week boondocking on the beach. We ended up spending six weeks. Fell in with a bunch of those rowdy Canadians. The only problem anyone had was one guy went looking for a hooker in his motorhome with RV REPAIR painted on the sides. The park manager told him to stay away from 14th Calle (st.). He went there first, invited a **** in his rig and got robbed. They really wanted his tools.
Down there the cartel pretty much keeps a lid on troubling tourists. They have millions of $ tied up in condos and hotels and want the tourists to keep coming to support the local economy.
My wife rode her bike anywhere she went on the outlying roads with no problem except dogs.
The most dangerous thing down there in Rocky Point is the traffic. Red lights and stop signs are treated as suggestions. I'm thankful I have a big, red truck.
We're planning on going there again this Winter.

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Old 09-16-2019, 08:09 AM   #8
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I have a place down there I used to really like for diving and other outdoor activities and feel pretty safe. I even used to hitch hike when I needed to go somewhere the public buses wouldn't take me. Locals were friendly and generous.
Like everywhere else that's nice, in the last decade the crime has moved in, through the internet everyone knows about it now, the Central American refugees are camped in the woods all around the outskirts of town, and the place is becoming overrun with tourists from all over the world. Still, as others have said, for the most part tourists are collateral damage in these places. Use good judgment and you'll be fine.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:14 AM   #9
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I work with a lot of folks who came here from Mexico. I talk to them about how bad this really is. All of them agree it's an issue.

The cartels are a business. Many of the rental areas are owned by cartels. So they don't want to kill a bunch of tourists, as that will negatively impact their investment. If you are a local street thug, and you screw up their business, they will kill you.

Most of them say it's kinda common sense. Don't be out late at night. Always travel in groups. Once you get to touristy area, stay there. Don't be on roads late at night.

When we travel there, we get off the plane, hop on a taxi that is pre arranged with a specific person, and head straight to the house. Once there, we stay at the house except for food. Which is done in popular locations. Feel very safe.

The threat is very real. A couple trips ago, the local police got into a shootout with the bad guys (Who were running truckloads of stuff up a highway). Killed 9 cops in the middle of the highway. A couple days later, the entire town we were staying in (Small fishing village turned tourist trap. Maybe 200 miles up the road from where shootout took place) was more or less shut down by 7pm. No lights on the hills. No traffic along beach roads. Almost silent. The next day I asked the kid who ran out place why it was so quiet. He tells me "Oh, the cartels were moving trucks up the highway. It's best to not be outside when they are nearby".

It's a tough deal.
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:36 PM   #10
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I have spent alot of time in mexico over the last 25 yrs...my biggest fear was not getting shot in the cross fire but having to go to a mexican hospital for surgery! or to go to a mexican hospital for anything. I lived in Belize and they were even more scary there. In Belize I used to go to the vet when I needed stitches.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:00 PM   #11
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I am acquainted with some folks who probably don't have the propper paperwork. One of them lost his father and brother to a drive by shooting. His brother and father stopped making their cartel payments. It's a sad and scary situation.
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Old Mexico

And to think about all the partying we did in TJ many moons ago.
But even then El Paso south of the border was deadly.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:46 AM   #13
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The current culture of violence in Baja it hard for me to see. After 100s of hours of safely enjoying the various recreational opportunities Baja has to offer I'm not sure I will be visiting again.

At the time my family and I were living in Southern California. Although I had a real job where my pay envelope was filled with corporate dollars my passion was in outdoor adventure and fishing.

I was fortunate in that I was able to explore those passions throughout Baja and also make a little money. As a side gig, I had a guide service where I would take groups of people across the border to various fish camps that I had established. Typically week long trips and my clients were from all walks of life; police officers, firemen, families, fisher people and surfers.

We never felt unsafe or experienced any form of intimidation. I would bring my kids along and knew that as long as I had a line of sight on them they were safe.

I have driven the entire length of Baja numerous times and many of the remote no name back roads to only find helpful and friendly people. Every experience from Coco's Corner, remote waterfalls, mile long surf breaks, stellar remote fishing spots to waiting for a Pemex truck at a gas station that was out of fuel to continue our caravan was a memorable experience. Aside from normal caution I was never concerned for my families, clients or my personal safety.

It has been almost 15 years since I last explored remote Baja. Sadly, remote or otherwise I don't think that it is any longer safe to travel in Baja.

Baja has so much to offer for adventure junkies, photographers, fishermen, ecotourism or just burring your feet in the hot sand while drinking a cold cervesa. It is an absolute shame that it is no longer a safe place for tourists.

Last edited by Rseas; 09-21-2019 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:49 AM   #14
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We should annex Mexico, but clean it up before we do. Rewrite the Monroe Doctrine so we protect ourselves by annexing countries that are a threat. The border between Mexico and Guatemala is a much shorter border to defend.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:54 PM   #15
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We go to Mazatlan every year for 3-4 weeks every year for the past 20 and I have to be honest with many of you approx 4-5 years ago when all this Cartel crap really hit the news big time, Mazatlan was going through one of its worst times cruise ships stopped coming down shops were closing, the streets were quite empty when we usually were bumping shoulders with people in the streets, during the middle of February through early March. I was Leary of going anywhere down here mainly because of the notorious Mexican Boogie man, I was reading so much about in the USA newspapers. Then I realized that is what the Newspapers are suppose to do to sell , OVER EMPATHIZE THE SITUATION, SO THAT Americans keep the money flowing in the USA and not MEXICO!...then after a day or 2 my brain came about and I realized "this town is no different than it has been the last 15 years, "safe and fun" and Mazatlan has been on the upswing for the last 5 years or so in fact Through August of 2018, roughly one and a half million tourists visited Mazatlan, a year over year increase of 12 percent, they expect many more through 2018-19, and just to add to this In 2018 the leading cause of tourist deaths in Mexico was auto accidents (3,104). Next was drowning (355), then suicide (228). Homicide for the last decade usually accounts for about 92 deaths a year. Drug-related deaths (by using or overdosing) were 59. Deaths from all causes were 8.87 per 1,000,000 (that is one million) visitors. Source: Time.com. (If you reduced that to the commonly-used statistical standard of 100,000, it's only 0.887 per 100,000 ....uh! folks that is NOT a percentage to get to excited about ..why! *If it is you or a loved one included in that statistic, it is terrible. But to put it into perspective , that is about 0.84 per ca-pita (of tourists, not nationals). .....You still are more likely to get struck by lightning (1 in 3,000 lifetime) in the USA than to be murdered in Mazatlan Mexico. ....I just want to give you the facts and let you reason things out. I am not trivializing the deaths of anyone. Death is a tragedy. Neither am I sensationalizing these peoples' deaths, as most news stories do. I love my good ole USA, but dont forget In 2018, there was a mass killing at least once a month in the USA. Innocents were gunned down in schools, churches, restaurants and on the highway. There were shootings by and at police more often than there should have been. Let's face it - the USA is a dangerous place in some, respects also. so folks let real reason bring you down to Mexico, the exchange rate is excellent, price of food is excellent and it taste great. and we now live here 4 months of the year, and absolutely love it. and alot of the killings are in house, use your head dont flash your bling, dont travel in dark areas at night by your self....its called the common sense approach. The Sinaloa Cartel is based here their kids go to school here, and they have much investments in many Business in Mazatlan, their smart enough to realize, shooting and robbing AMERICANS won help them a bit. But I do see what is going on in the rest of the country, and you would be a fool to invest in property here, But so far in Mazatlan at least, all is good. But let me make a very stern warning if you go down to Mexico and somehow get involved with the drug trade, they dont take you in a back room and beat the be-Jesus out of you for a lesson over a bad drug deal....they kill you plain and simple....I have found out that 95% of the American murders were do to the fact they got involved with the drug trade, mainly because they found out money, large amounts of money were involved.

Last edited by slickitem; 09-20-2019 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:42 PM   #16
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Latest from cancun...

https://www.breitbart.com/border/201...ded-in-cancun/
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:46 PM   #17
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I saw that beheading on a different news source. Never been to Mexico, never lost anything down there so no reason to go now.
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:49 PM   #18
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There was a time when u could have more fun in mexico, in many ways, than about anywhere else. Sad how world is changing. However I am more worried anymore about my home country than any others.
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:00 PM   #19
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Bummer. I always relied on Cancun to draw the crowds away from the places I liked. Now the gangs are down there too. Sorry to hear about the commander. Fighting corruption is dangerous biz these days.
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:02 PM   #20
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Everyone is involved in that shite from gov to police to cartels to wanna be local gangs calling them selves a cartel. When that place implodes they arw gonna stream north like ants..
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:10 PM   #21
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I've spent weeks at a time over the last 15 years in Baja. Only problems I've ever had were with corrupt policemen. I spend most of my time in Todos Santos. It use to be a very quiet little town but now there's a lot more tourists. I remember when the 1st hotel was built on Cerritos beach. Now there are many. You don't see or hear anything public about the cartels until you get to know the locals. Then, in hushed tones, you hear about this place and that place being cartel owned. I've always flown down and never driven but always wanted to drive it... But the way things are now, especially near any border town it's doubtful I'll ever drive it. I was down there for a few weeks last year and I will be back...
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Old Mexico

I was an exchange student in Mexico my junior year of high school (1988/89) and have spent a lot of time traveling pretty much every part (with the exception of Baja California) of the country. All told I have lived over three years in Mexico.

My experience has been that Mexicans are, as a rule, the most friendly and gracious people on Earth. We have been invited into countless strangers’ homes, weddings, and once a wake. We have taken our kids four times (they are 8 & 10 now). My mother traveled there at least twenty times by herself and with friends/family, we took her last year for the last time.

Mexico is still a beautiful place. You can believe the hype/tripe you read on Breitbart or you can go see for yourself.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesoro View Post
One day many of them will be moving up our way..

https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-mex...story?ref=wrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesoro View Post
I have spent alot of time in mexico over the last 25 yrs...my biggest fear was not getting shot in the cross fire but having to go to a mexican hospital for surgery! or to go to a mexican hospital for anything. I lived in Belize and they were even more scary there. In Belize I used to go to the vet when I needed stitches.
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Quote:
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When that place implodes they arw gonna stream north like ants..

Seeing a definite trend with Tesoro's posts. Just how afraid are we supposed to be????
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:18 AM   #24
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Not afraid but just aware.

I would have to guess that the last stronghold remaining for the old mexico many of us got to love would be some small fishing village isolated from the mainland on the pacific side of baja.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:46 AM   #25
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Sounds like they had another running gun battle through town over El Chapo's son being taken into custody by the Federale's and the MNG.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m..._medium=Social


Quote:
Cartel gunmen terrorize Mexican city, free El Chapo's son

Dave Graham, Lizbeth Diaz
5 Min Read







MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Heavily armed fighters surrounded security forces in a Mexican city on Thursday and made them free one of drug lord Joaquin ‘El Chapo’ Guzman’s sons, after his capture triggered gunbattles and a prison break that sent civilians scurrying for cover.
Security Minister Alfonso Durazo said a patrol by National Guard militarized police first came under attack from within a house in the city of Culiacan, 1,235 km (770 miles) northwest of Mexico City.
After entering the house, they found four men, including Ovidio Guzman, who is accused of drug trafficking in the United States.
The patrol was quickly outmatched by cartel gunmen, however, and it was withdrawn to prevent lives being lost, the government said. Simultaneously, fighters swarmed through the city, battling police and soldiers in broad daylight. They torched vehicles and left at least one gas station ablaze.
“The decision was taken to retreat from the house, without Guzman, to try to avoid more violence in the area and preserve the lives of our personnel and recover calm in the city,” Durazo told Reuters.
The reaction to Guzman’s capture was on a scale rarely seen during Mexico’s long drug war, even after his more famous father’s arrests. The chaos was continuing as night fell.
A large group of inmates escaped from the city prison. Residents cowered in shopping centers and supermarkets as gunfire roared. Black plumes of smoke rose across the skyline.

~Snip~

Doesn't sound like anywhere I'd care to spend my vacation.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:05 PM   #26
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Wow, I took a Mexican friend down to Loreto BCS for a fishing adventure as he had never been down there before, as we walked the streets at night he expressed his fear many times, and I advised him I felt safer there than in the US, but now I an wondering, that was 20 years ago.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:29 PM   #27
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About 12 years ago, we took a trip with my wife's sister and husband to the Yukatan. Our trip included the Mayan ruins of Tulum, Coba, Chichan itza, and Usmal. We drove through the Yukatan ourselves to all of these locations and stayed at several. We drove through tiny villages in the interior that were, well, very poor. We asked for directions here and there and were always treated great.

We won't travel to Mexico again.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:47 PM   #28
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It’s amazing how much the media influences people.
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:14 PM   #29
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The state of Yucatán is rated as very safe. Lots of traffic inspection stations as they dont put up with dirt bag drug dealing cartels there.
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Old 10-18-2019, 03:23 PM   #30
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Look what happened to Acapulco Mexico, that was a booming movie star go to place and now the Hotels are dead, thanks to the crime and gangs.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:21 PM   #31
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The state of Yucatán is rated as very safe. Lots of traffic inspection stations as they dont put up with dirt bag drug dealing cartels there.
not really...actually not at all...sad but true. its not like mainland but if you go out to a public spot you will should think about getting caught in the crossfire...!!

in 2012 we had a restaurant and favorite table in the town of chetumal (low risk) and in 2013 a couple sitting at our table were killed by ak bullets due to an assassination of the guys sitting at the adjoining table, And that was 6 yrs ago or so. Not getting better!

The ferry bomb that happened at plays del carmen was extortion. Night club fire in cancun that killed 100+ same thing..and list goes on if you are 'in the know'.

Last edited by Tesoro; 10-19-2019 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:14 AM   #32
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Been there many times and not willing to take a chance. I know in the small town of Philomath I will not be kidnapped, at least for my good looks. I will not see a running gun battle or human trafficking(whats up with that). But you can never say never about a school shooting.

My neighbor who is Mexican and speaks very little English told me it is just as dangerous as the US. And he said you don't involve yourself in their stuff and they will leave you alone. He also said you don't look at them either or your dead.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:24 AM   #33
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I think it’s potentially more dangerous if you don’t speak the language and appear to have money. I was in France this year where the government warn tourists against pickpockets, but I wasn’t pickpocketed. Does that mean that there aren’t any? ... kind of doubt it. I think Mexico is the same in that just because you’ve been safe doesn’t mean that everyone is going to be.

I’m glad I went to Mexico almost 30 years ago, but can’t think of any reason that it’s worth it for me to go there now.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesoro View Post
Not afraid but just aware.

I've been twice on business, always assigned an armed guard (inside the factory!) and delivered to a gated community for the night (armed guards at the gate.) Told me all I need to know. They can have it.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:13 AM   #35
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it only happens when the people are passive and let it happen. you have a 100 million people or at least hundred of thousands able body people in those areas. if they all stood together they could in one day drive out any undesirables.


i laugh at Afghanistan where a few million let a few hundred at first take over the whole country and behead people in the town square.
if the sheep wont at least fight the wolves the wolves will control the sheep.
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Old 10-19-2019, 04:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: Old Mexico

I think the bottom line is why go to mexico? if you go to touristy areas it aint cheap and no more 50c beers and it is generally gross in all forms. And thats where the danger is - potentially. I am sure there are some cool little fishing villages on the pac side of baja that are so isolated that they are the last strongholds. I would consider going to one of those to fish and eat seafood but all depends on the logistics of getting there.
The truth is there really isnt much option for us to go to for sub tropical or tropical adventure that is close any more. I would say the coast of chile or peru would be the best bet to look at for economy and a real adventure without machine guns. As long as you dont mind fishing out of a panga.

ps: the sheep dont fight because they arent allowed or cant afford to have firearms and ample ammo.

Last edited by Tesoro; 10-19-2019 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:07 PM   #37
CopperMan
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Default Re: Old Mexico

My friend and I have gone to Baja 9 times in the last 6 years. One of those trips we trailered a boat down as far as Loreto. Other than the adventure of driving with a boat, I've never felt uncomfortable. Granted we fly to San Jose del Cabo, get in a van and are shuttled to La Ventana. We stay at a very quiet wind surfing lodge in a small town. In essence we are pretty isolated, but again I've always felt completely safe. Everyone I've encountered in the area are pleasant, kind, funny, welcoming and fun to be around, much like my neighbors here in Oregon. Before our first trip the outfitter we go with assured me that my belongings would be safe in my room. No one locks their doors and I keep my travel cash in my pack in my room. Housekeeping is so respectful they won't even move my bags if they are in the way. I consider the staff, captains, and bait guys to be my second family. I respect them all a great deal and appreciate their hard work to make my trip pleasant and successful. I love it so much that I've started booking two trips a year, one in the spring and one in the fall.

All that said, I avoid high profile places and I don't go out and about at night. That's my . Cheers, CopperMan.


I guess you never know when an area will flare up: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50113090. My wife and I visited Kashmir while we were in the Peace Corps during the Fall of 1988. Fished the Lidder River in the town of Pahalgam. Beautiful place. Reminded me of Central Oregon. Cannot go back there because of years of civil strife.
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Last edited by CopperMan; 10-20-2019 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Added a link to violence in Chile.
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:47 PM   #38
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot
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Default Re: Old Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatman View Post
it only happens when the people are passive and let it happen. you have a 100 million people or at least hundred of thousands able body people in those areas. if they all stood together they could in one day drive out any undesirables.


i laugh at Afghanistan where a few million let a few hundred at first take over the whole country and behead people in the town square.
if the sheep wont at least fight the wolves the wolves will control the sheep.
That is a very ignorant comment.
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Old 10-20-2019, 04:26 PM   #39
lingslayer
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Default Re: Old Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskyTangoFoxtrot View Post
That is a very ignorant comment.
Not according to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn it's not.


He lamented thoroughly over the response the populace had to the thugs of the Bolshevik revolution.
And pointed out the fact that not near enough people fought back, and just accepted their fate(s), despite having far superior numbers.


Quote:
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

(Except from his book, The Gulag Archipelago)
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Last edited by lingslayer; 10-20-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:38 PM   #40
judyfish99
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Default Re: Old Mexico

My fat butt will never be in Mexico:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:31 PM   #41
flatman
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Default Re: Old Mexico

good one lingslayer that quote can be applied to most populaces that get taken over by other than a major power.


thats how we won over england in the war. thats how we lost in vietnam, and us and russia in afganistan,. when to people there fight back and are willing to die for it its hard or impossible to win without genocide.
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