Endangered Species Act is under attack - www.ifish.net
The Oregonian's Bill Monroe!

Go Back   www.ifish.net > Ifish Fishing and Hunting > Ifish Community

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-12-2019, 12:21 PM   #1
pinhead2
Tuna!
 
pinhead2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,041
Default Endangered Species Act is under attack

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/c...t-changes.html

This is a move that does not bode well for salmon (and will surely go to court). There are big changes being made administratively, and one of the important ones is that species that are 'threatened' will no longer have the protections of those that are listed as 'endangered'. And, for the first time, economic factors will be part of the listing determination--if it costs too much to preserve habitat and save a species, listing will be unlikely to happen, and if it does, the amount of habitat will likely be reduced. Furthermore, the future effects of climate change cannot be factored into the listing of a species.

This is a one-two punch after the recent decision to remove the EPA from the Pebble Mine decision process.

pinhead2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-12-2019, 12:29 PM   #2
Sneaker
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: SW Eugene
Posts: 329
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinhead2 View Post
-if it costs too much to preserve habitat and save a species, listing will be unlikely to happen, and if it does, the amount of habitat will likely be reduced.

I don’t see this as a bad thing.
__________________
Eugene Area
Sneaker is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:31 PM   #3
Bill Monroe
 
Bill Monroe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 21,648
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

It's a terrible thing...Unwinds decades of concern and habitat protection. Paves the path to our own extinction.
__________________
Bill Monroe

"Yet it isn't the gold that I'm wanting
So much as just finding the gold."
Robert Service




Last edited by Bill Monroe; 08-12-2019 at 12:33 PM.
Bill Monroe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-12-2019, 12:44 PM   #4
Stick'em
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,829
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

The ESA changes every year. This will make it easier to remove critters off the list that are no longer in danger. How long did it take to remove Steller sealions? Probably too long to save the winter steelhead.
__________________
Mo Feeesh!
Stick'em is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:51 PM   #5
adrenaline
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,304
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

This decision is clearly designed for short term profits above all else = long term bad news for all species...including humans.
__________________
Ken 21' NR(Maxxum) "Adrenaline"
"We fail to see, how destructive we can be, taking without giving back, til the damage can be seen...can you see? The price we pay to play the game~ Aaron Lewis.
adrenaline is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:54 PM   #6
Don G Baldi
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Salem/Little Italy
Posts: 10,501
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaker View Post
I don’t see this as a bad thing.
About time some common sense was seen. Looking forward to open season on spotted owl.
__________________
Common sense isn't evenly distributed
Don G Baldi is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:04 PM   #7
Bill Monroe
 
Bill Monroe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 21,648
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Gag...
Nearly enough to call it quits for Ifish...
Feel free to cheer.
__________________
Bill Monroe

"Yet it isn't the gold that I'm wanting
So much as just finding the gold."
Robert Service



Bill Monroe is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:06 PM   #8
PDXanglr
Coho
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 83
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenaline View Post
This decision is clearly designed for short term profits above all else = long term bad news for all species...including humans.


If anyone thinks this is a good thing, think of the opportunities your kids and/or grand kids may never experience...i.e. catching and eating a salmon.

While this thread is undoubtedly about to get political in a hurry, I would stress the importance of your vote in 2020. Voting for those representatives that have the larger, long-term vision in their policy is the best way we have at preserving the fragile resources that afford us the beauty of our natural surroundings...those that we can share with generations to come.
PDXanglr is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:18 PM   #9
bradly11
King Salmon
 
bradly11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sandy
Posts: 7,138
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

zWhile I am tired of the courts being used to keep animals on the endangered species list that clearly don't warrant it, I am extremely skeptical that the deregulation of the ESA is a positive move.
We need to protect animals and maintain public lands
bradly11 is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:49 PM   #10
Sneaker
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: SW Eugene
Posts: 329
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

A lot of my friends lost darn good jobs because of the spotted owl. Lost their homes, some of them. Can human impact never be considered?
__________________
Eugene Area
Sneaker is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:36 PM   #11
Bill Rogue V.
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Alamogordo, New Mexico
Posts: 15,200
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

I'm worried. If this were a thoughtful, even-keeled administration making these policy decisions, I could accept revising and tweaking the way the ESA is administered. No law is perfect; no law cannot benefit from occasional revisiting.
__________________
The language of God is science.
Bill Rogue V. is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:06 PM   #12
Rykat
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,716
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

The problem is an . . all or nothing mentality that prevents the needle moving in sensible, pragmatic and timely directions that could bring the maximum benefit to all stakeholders. Everything is addressed with a sledgehammer now.
Rykat is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:24 PM   #13
freespool
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: woodstock
Posts: 18,293
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaker View Post
A lot of my friends lost darn good jobs because of the spotted owl. Lost their homes, some of them. Can human impact never be considered?



More timber jobs have been lost to automation than lost to environmental decisions.


"More timber-related jobs have been lost in recent decades to increases in efficiency and productivity than to reductions in timber harvests."




http://dels.nas.edu/Report/Environme...st-Forest/4983
__________________
salmon hugger





"A curious thing happens when fish stocks decline: People who aren't aware of the old levels accept the new ones as normal. Over generations, societies adjust their expectations downward to match prevailing conditions." Kennedy Warne

Last edited by freespool; 08-12-2019 at 06:07 PM.
freespool is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:39 PM   #14
SquarePeg
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 1,340
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by freespool View Post
More timber jobs have been lost to automation than lost to environmental decisions.
While that might be true, it sure doesn't matter to the person who lost their job to the spotted owl. That stuff went down starting about a year or two before I finished high school. Friends parents lost their homes, kids college money vanished. It was not to automation. It was to owls, particularly to lawsuits over owls that shut down timber supply, shut down mills, ended the opportunity for real living wage blue collar jobs. Without the logging jobs and mill jobs, there was no need for USFS, the 2nd largest employer, to have the same staff as before, so along with the timber jobs went gov't jobs. What was left, blue collar, was making beds and flipping burgers. That does not pay for house payments, car payments, or sending your kids to college.

At the same time, I'm disturbed by the changes. The ESA is a double-edged sword. Harm has been done yet benefits have occurred as well. We need a carefully thought out plan and it needs to be implemented over long time periods, not the 2-4-6 year cycle of politics. We should be doing what is right for our long term needs, including the environment, not offering it as a political plum / short term tit-for-tat pay-off for political support. Nor should it be used by either side of the political aisle for getting even with the other. We have a responsibility, both jobs and environment, to future generations we should be considering.
__________________
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't seen a Möbius strip ...

Last edited by SquarePeg; 08-12-2019 at 04:44 PM.
SquarePeg is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:46 PM   #15
Run-n-Gun
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 322
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaker View Post
A lot of my friends lost darn good jobs because of the spotted owl. Lost their homes, some of them. Can human impact never be considered?
I'll chime in:
https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...3&action=click
Run-n-Gun is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:15 PM   #16
IdahoBeav
Ifish Nate
 
IdahoBeav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Treasure Valley
Posts: 3,324
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by freespool View Post
More timber jobs have been lost to automation than lost to environmental decisions.
Do you have a source on those stats?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
__________________
One person's tragedy never negates another's individual rights, and individual rights always outweigh collective interests.
IdahoBeav is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:41 PM   #17
Don G Baldi
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Salem/Little Italy
Posts: 10,501
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

"Cost is no object." So a little know species of bug is declining in numbers, must it be protected "at all costs"? Should we spend $1 million? $100 million? A billion? If cost is no object, every living organism deserves to linger until Mother Nature finally overcomes the will of the EPA and kills it off for good as a bad branch on the tree of life.


A bit of common sense needs to be part of the 'how much is it worth' equation. For my money, if it can't adapt it needs to go bye-bye.
__________________
Common sense isn't evenly distributed
Don G Baldi is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:03 PM   #18
craigcw
Chromer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tigard, OR
Posts: 581
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

https://www.outsideonline.com/217627...let-go-extinct


Introduces "Species Triage."
craigcw is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:41 PM   #19
blueduck
Sturgeon
 
blueduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington County
Posts: 3,964
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Seems like it might be beneficial for a few responders to ponder the following information. A case can't always be made for protecting something critically important costing TOO much. At some point money is going to take a back seat on myriad issues.

It's likely that some won't read past 'climate change', but here goes........I roll up the whole endangered species issues and environment into one package. I believe it all about symbiotic relationships on a lot of levels and it's time to entertain big pictures, not micro-management and monetary decisions driven by our own misappropriation of resources.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is the international body with the charge of assessing the science related to climate change. Their recent Special Report on Climate Change (SRCCL) composed by more than 100 notable scientists from 52 countries (I consider that pretty broad spectrum representation) assessed the latest scientific knowledge about climate change, desertification, land degradation, sustainable land management, food security, and greenhouse gases. All of these things have at least a tangential relationship to endangered species. (The key words here are 'scientists', not pundits, political operatives, and mouthpieces for special interests...... They are scientists from 52 countries that assessed and drew out the facts we should at least entertain listening to).

Their collective investigations revealed the highest levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide levels in at least 800,000 years. These levels were determined by extracting and assessing levels in glacier ice cores. These high levels are now rising at rates that are unprecedented in both the historic and geologic records we have to examine. The planet is responding with the increases we witness in extreme weather, melting ice sheets, flooding, and drought.

This multi-international group cites that slashing the planets carbon emissions in the coming decade and beyond will take 'unprecedented global effort' that involves both curbing carbon emissions and transforming the way all of humanity uses the land.

Forests are a real big deal. The transformation of forests into range and pasture land the last couple of centuries is cited as a main driver towards a real bad place. Apparently nothing sucks up carbon dioxide like forests. Although loss of forest habitat isn't universally applicable to creating endangered species it is a critical puzzle piece. The bigger picture is if we don't heed what is being laid before us we won't ultimately be worried about endangered species as they will almost all be assuredly gone in the early stages of the spiral. I hope we don't gauge our protection strategies based upon cost and how much money can be put into already deep pockets or we are all going to be sorry. Personal sacrifice is likely going to be a big part of the solution to pass along nice things to our offspring.

Part of my charge as an avid outdoorsman is also being an environmentalist and I make no apology for that. I want the animals I pursue and the fish I catch to have the best habitat we can reasonable provide them to assure their presence in everyone's future. Watching extinction can't make anyone that has the means to prevent it feel very good especially if we place too much emphasis on $$$$. If the best collective of scientific minds are telling us the trajectory we are on has an ugly endgame we may wish to stop listening to special interests and acknowledge where we would be today if we never employed science. I firmly believe we may be the last generation that has the power to protect and secure our natural resources and animals. I suggest we use what we have to protect them. Relaxing environmental protections and endangered species protections is never going to be the answer regardless of whatever justification is cited.
__________________
The truth does not require your participation in order to exist. Bull**** does. Terence McKenna

Last edited by blueduck; 08-12-2019 at 07:57 PM.
blueduck is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:06 PM   #20
I-Builtit
Tuna!
 
I-Builtit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,276
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

blueduck x2. Monroe please don't quit I-Fish if anything we need more like you.
I-Builtit is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:37 PM   #21
eyeFISH
King Salmon
 
eyeFISH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 17,444
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenaline View Post
This decision is clearly designed for short term profits above all else = long term bad news for all species...including humans.

MONEY post!
__________________
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg

Long Live the Kings!
eyeFISH.... The Keen Eye MD
eyeFISH is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:59 PM   #22
freespool
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: woodstock
Posts: 18,293
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Having no justifiable reason for rolling back protections makes this low hanging fruit in a court challenge.
__________________
salmon hugger





"A curious thing happens when fish stocks decline: People who aren't aware of the old levels accept the new ones as normal. Over generations, societies adjust their expectations downward to match prevailing conditions." Kennedy Warne
freespool is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:16 PM   #23
adamg
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 256
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

*sigh* Dont worry, when there are no more fish there will still be "someone else" to point the finger at and blame.
adamg is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:13 PM   #24
blueduck
Sturgeon
 
blueduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington County
Posts: 3,964
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

A bit of common sense needs to be part of the 'how much is it worth' equation. For my money, if it can't adapt it needs to go bye-bye.[/QUOTE]
Don G. Baldi

No offense, but I had to let that sink in a minute........ So, if a specie can't withstand man's arrogant misuse and plundering of their environment and they can't adapt their behaviors, genetics, or otherwise morph into something that can tolerate us then they need to simply go away. Geez....

This is exactly the level of arrogance that will kill all of us when we finally realize we have irreparably torn the fabric of our ONE AND ONLY environment and think we can employ some quick human fix to solve it. I'd say we have been lining up the dominoes for quite some time now. I'm not into the resignation that we are our own worst enemy and there is nothing we can do about it nor do I subscribe to the notion that we so omnipotent that we can arrest whatever self-inflicted calamity befalls us. We are good, but not that good. It's bigger than us. And as they say there is no planet B. If we can't see beyond our own generation we suck.
__________________
The truth does not require your participation in order to exist. Bull**** does. Terence McKenna

Last edited by blueduck; 08-12-2019 at 10:19 PM.
blueduck is offline  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:37 PM   #25
Hubbs
Tuna!
 
Hubbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 1,083
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

I'll preface my remarks with the statement that I am an anthropogenic climate change skeptic, which is different from a climate change denier. Climate change has been occurring since the Big Bang, that is undeniable. But, I don't buy the concept that current changes in our climate are solely or even predominantly caused by man. To those that are anthropogenic climate change believers, the US is not even the major contributor to greenhouse gases. Yet, that group insists that the US bear the brunt of the burden for correcting the ills of the planet, at the cost of decimating our lives. Why don't you spend time trying to bring the likes of China, India, and other countries up to anything close to where the US currently is relative to greenhouse emissions? That would seem to have the highest probability for global success, wouldn't it?

That said, there are untold numbers of species that have gone extinct for reasons we will never know. The ecosystem adapts, and life carries on. For the Darwinian's among us, isn't that how it has always worked? Is the devastation of human lives and livelihoods worth the likes of the Snowy Plover, which is apparently too dumb to know you can't lay your eggs in the open sand and expect them to survive. For us creationists, perhaps the likes of the Snowy Plover were ordained to eventually succumb to extinction?

It's about time that the ESA pendulum swing a little in the opposite direction. Not a massive swing, but some correction of the balance is long overdue. The ESA has been picking winners and losers, inaccurately and for too long; seals and sea lions over salmon and orca? Who made that call?

Let the flaming begin!
Hubbs is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:43 AM   #26
DogZilla15
King Salmon
 
DogZilla15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 31,379
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Something long the line of, “if it can’t adapt, it needs to go bye bye.” I’ve brought this up before but its been a while.

I was up at Hagg Lake running my Griffs around. They have some areas marked as, critical habitat, keep out. It involves some butterfly that no one gives a darn about. One day there was a fellow with clipboard poking around this “habitat” (which appears to be some sort of dwarf Lupin) so I stopped to get the details. Told him the whole idea seemed ridiculous to put so much effort into such a meaningless cause. His response was, “it keeps me employed.”

My wheels of creativity started turning and I figured the best thing to do would be to spray this critical habitat with an herbicide and save the government some money. In reality, they’d just find some other worthless endeavor to spend it on.

This is clearly not the way to save the planet, one butterfly at a time.
DogZilla15 is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:51 AM   #27
wak'm&stak'm
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville Ore.
Posts: 5,758
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

It's about time that the ESA pendulum swing a little in the opposite direction. Not a massive swing, but some correction of the balance is long overdue. The ESA has been picking winners and losers, inaccurately and for too long; seals and sea lions over salmon and orca? Who made that call?

Let the flaming begin! [/QUOTE]

No flames from me, what you said is part of the conversation that should be discussed.

Not everyone who questions the current strategies, want destruction of our planet or any species. What many want is a common sense approach that is affective. What we have is a political ***** show, now playing out in the courts.

wak'm&stak'm is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:51 AM   #28
DogZilla15
King Salmon
 
DogZilla15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 31,379
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Jackc: Some things are a benefit to mankind and an indication of the overall health of the planet, some are not. Things have been going extinct ever since the first tiny organisms came into existence and will continue to do so. Not everything can be saved or should be saved. What is important is to learn the cause of the extinctions and if something could have been done to prevent them, take the lesson to heart. Most extinctions are not man caused, they just happen. The butterfly isn’t the issue, the habitat is.
DogZilla15 is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:25 AM   #29
joe_camo
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,625
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogZilla15 View Post
Jackc: Some things are a benefit to mankind and an indication of the overall health of the planet, some are not. Things have been going extinct ever since the first tiny organisms came into existence and will continue to do so. Not everything can be saved or should be saved. What is important is to learn the cause of the extinctions and if something could have been done to prevent them, take the lesson to heart. Most extinctions are not man caused, they just happen. The butterfly isn’t the issue, the habitat is.
Excellent points.

It is interesting that the first insect know to have gone extinct due to humans was a butterfly. The Xerces society, a scientific non-profit focused on invertebrate conservation, is named after this butterfly. In that case it was the habitat, all of which was destroyed for development

https://xerces.org/

Habitat is the key, always has been. The ESA as written is not key to saving and conserving wildlife - habitat is key to saving wildlife and rebuilding threatened and endangered species. Isn't it ironic that we as anglers insist that our politicians raid funds earmarked for habitat restoration to prop up failing hatcheries. We are our own worst enemies when we trade the short term benefit of a few more hatchery fish for the long term loss of critical habitat.
__________________
Get involved in a Salmonid recovery or habitat enhancement group and remember that YOUR involvement is more than being a member or attending a banquet.
Salmonid recovery - LIFE MEMBER
joe_camo is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:49 AM   #30
lexie
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Salem
Posts: 407
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

"Save the "White" blue collar worker !
lexie is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:55 AM   #31
adrenaline
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,304
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Pointing to past extinctions means nothing to modern man, all that matters to us is what is happening now & in the immediate future, simply put we are disturbing the natural balance of our one & only planet, disturbing the balance too much will mean mass extinction for many species, possibly even us. We all know this is really about oil, gas, & mineral extraction for short term profits, long term this will likely do more harm than good to fish, animals, & humans.
__________________
Ken 21' NR(Maxxum) "Adrenaline"
"We fail to see, how destructive we can be, taking without giving back, til the damage can be seen...can you see? The price we pay to play the game~ Aaron Lewis.
adrenaline is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:04 AM   #32
Greenleaf
Steelhead
 
Greenleaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 418
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

It would be a travesty to roll back protection that the ESA act affords.

I'm surprised it hasn't been noted that if this was to come to fruition that many of our coastal Salmon and Steelhead would not receive ESA protection (including OC Coho) and would thus be much, much harder to receive federal funding for habitat improvements.
__________________
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water- Loren Eiseley
Greenleaf is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:10 AM   #33
squidward
Steelhead
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 248
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

So a group of Scientist,, ( Group think ),, told us what was going on 800,000
years ago. Was it in the 70"s they said we would all freeze to death.
Always been climate change,,always will be. Pollution , now thats a different story.

squidward is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:16 AM   #34
First Bite
 
First Bite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oregon Coast
Posts: 3,225
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueduck View Post

This multi-international group cites that slashing the planets carbon emissions in the coming decade and beyond will take 'unprecedented global effort' that involves both curbing carbon emissions and transforming the way all of humanity uses the land.

blueduck,


I really appreciate your posts here on ifish and can tell you have a lot of knowledge concerning this topic. I have one question for you. I've read several articles on climate change stating that the US on average puts out around 15% of the pollution in the atmosphere. China & India are by far the biggest polluters and show no signs of slowing down or even trying to mitigate their emissions. In fact, they're doing just the opposite. Even if the US were to implement the so called "Green New Deal", and drop our emissions to zero, we will never be able to reign in the major polluters in this world. How will we ever slash the global carbon emissions and make progress if China & India don't get on board?




.
__________________
http://www.firstbitejigs.com

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke.

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” ― George Orwell

'I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." - Thomas Sowell



Ifish member #5!
First Bite is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:42 AM   #35
Dave G
King Halibut
 
Dave G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Beach, Owner/Operator of the Kalena
Posts: 43,611
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Before this gets closed. First Bite, thanks. I have been saying that for years, until you get the rest of the world onboard America and all their efforts are nothing but a mute point. We all know this will go to court.
__________________
If it can't be Salmon, I'll take Halibut!!!

Dave G is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:45 AM   #36
Pacific Fisher
Chromer
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 578
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Salmon are going to be required to show proof of water before being allowed to enter rivers.
__________________
Every day I don't row the steelhead grow stronger

Craig Bell
Pacific Fisher is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:07 AM   #37
TanTastic84
Coho
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Seattle
Posts: 84
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidward View Post
Probably one of the dumbest post here ever,,, last time i was in your Utopian city of Seattle it looked just like one of "those Countries"
My hometown has become a dump thanks to money from tech companies and developers. So, yeah, I see the effects of what money over anything has on real life.
TanTastic84 is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:09 AM   #38
SteelCityIrish
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Next Volcano Back
Posts: 463
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

https://youtu.be/izQB2-Kmiic


I think we will all pay in some way...


S.C.I.
SteelCityIrish is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:11 AM   #39
Root Hog or Die
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Land of Misfit Toys
Posts: 4,178
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by First Bite View Post
blueduck,


I really appreciate your posts here on ifish and can tell you have a lot of knowledge concerning this topic. I have one question for you. I've read several articles on climate change stating that the US on average puts out around 15% of the pollution in the atmosphere. China & India are by far the biggest polluters and show no signs of slowing down or even trying to mitigate their emissions. In fact, they're doing just the opposite. Even if the US were to implement the so called "Green New Deal", and drop our emissions to zero, we will never be able to reign in the major polluters in this world. How will we ever slash the global carbon emissions and make progress if China & India don't get on board?




.
I think your information on China and India not even trying to mitigate their emissions is either a bit out of date or perhaps from a source that is less than completely truthful. Both India and and China have been world leaders in spending on renewable in renewable in the last few year. To be completely honest, the U.S. hasn't been doing all that bad in investment of renewable lately, despite federal policy.
Root Hog or Die is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:26 AM   #40
adrenaline
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,304
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

No where in this country is it as bad as China or India, no we don't need to or want be more like those places where they treat their people like disposable drones, they where masks here in Eugene but for pollen, & related allergies. BTW C02 is air pollution, may not be visible or detectable with the human nose, but pollution all the same. L.A. had a bad air pollution problem similar to what China & India looks like now...til we listened to the scientists & did something about it, this is a global problem that needs global solutions, we are still the country that the world looks to for solutions, & leadership, when other countries see we put profits above all else, how will they react?. I agree with FB, TT84 should keep the partisan attacks out of the discussion.
__________________
Ken 21' NR(Maxxum) "Adrenaline"
"We fail to see, how destructive we can be, taking without giving back, til the damage can be seen...can you see? The price we pay to play the game~ Aaron Lewis.
adrenaline is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:33 AM   #41
8knots
Chromer
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: North OR coast
Posts: 982
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

While we were stealing land from those more native to it we also thought it would be a good idea to knock off the Buffalo. The Midwest used to be the Wild West. I don't trust us when it comes to protecting the natural environment. Not a good record.
__________________
8Knots
8knots is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:37 AM   #42
blueduck
Sturgeon
 
blueduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington County
Posts: 3,964
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubbs View Post
I'll preface my remarks with the statement that I am an anthropogenic climate change skeptic, which is different from a climate change denier. Climate change has been occurring since the Big Bang, that is undeniable. But, I don't buy the concept that current changes in our climate are solely or even predominantly caused by man. To those that are anthropogenic climate change believers, the US is not even the major contributor to greenhouse gases. Yet, that group insists that the US bear the brunt of the burden for correcting the ills of the planet, at the cost of decimating our lives. Why don't you spend time trying to bring the likes of China, India, and other countries up to anything close to where the US currently is relative to greenhouse emissions? That would seem to have the highest probability for global success, wouldn't it?

That said, there are untold numbers of species that have gone extinct for reasons we will never know. The ecosystem adapts, and life carries on. For the Darwinian's among us, isn't that how it has always worked? Is the devastation of human lives and livelihoods worth the likes of the Snowy Plover, which is apparently too dumb to know you can't lay your eggs in the open sand and expect them to survive. For us creationists, perhaps the likes of the Snowy Plover were ordained to eventually succumb to extinction?

It's about time that the ESA pendulum swing a little in the opposite direction. Not a massive swing, but some correction of the balance is long overdue. The ESA has been picking winners and losers, inaccurately and for too long; seals and sea lions over salmon and orca? Who made that call?

Let the flaming begin!

Your contentions are sound. I was mostly concerned about what appears to be the apparent acceleration of extinctions. Some analysis has shown that prior to human evolvement less than a single species per million appeared to go extinct annually. Now some of the more recent data suggests that somewhere between 100 to 1,000 per million species of plants and animals are going extinct annually. I believe it is safe to say that much of this can be attributed to human caused habitat destruction and other climate changes. We have seen about six mass extinctions that appear to be caused by factors other than man. As you say, some species just fall by the wayside because their time has come and adaptions simply were made too slow. The same can be man too. Given our short time span on earth the question remains whether or not we are viable organism given our performance record.

Regarding seals and sea lions no choice was made to favor them over salmon and Orcas. This dynamic is the product of the Marine Mammal Protection Act. The pendulum has obviously swung wildly in the direction of the pinnipeds and we are having a really hard time adjusting it. It's infuriating to gaze at the docks in Astoria.
__________________
The truth does not require your participation in order to exist. Bull**** does. Terence McKenna
blueduck is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:37 AM   #43
Splash
Sturgeon
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver USA
Posts: 3,865
Default

The ESA certainly has difficulty with migratory species. Take salmon for instance. The burden is placed squarely on the nursery locations while the adult rearing locations are aloud to run amok. Put tighter constraints on those northern intercept fisheries and see how many stocks suddenly rebound. We pay, they play.
__________________
Commercial friendly. Gillnet intolerant.
Splash is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:41 AM   #44
uhmw
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: westlinn
Posts: 5,415
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTastic84 View Post
My hometown has become a dump thanks to money from tech companies and developers. So, yeah, I see the effects of what money over anything has on real life.
Your town is what it is because it is lead by visionary's who are batty blind.
uhmw is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:00 AM   #45
tomc
Super Moderator
 
tomc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Salem
Posts: 1,758
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

As tough as it is, let's try to remain on Topic, and not on Politics.
__________________
tomc is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:04 AM   #46
2slow
Chromer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 680
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackchinook View Post
So you've written off a butterfly you can't comprehend (or won't accept) the value of. You do realize that the vast majority of this country's population couldn't give two sh*ts about the difference between Upper Columbia springers and a Tule fall Chinook, right? As an angler on iFish, I'm sure you appreciate there's a huge difference between these two types of O. tshawytscha, correct?

So then we're left to trust this administration to draw the line between species they think are worthwhile and those that aren't important. Sorry, I won't.


"So then we're left to trust this administration to draw the line between species they think are worthwhile and those that aren't important. Sorry, I won't."

So you believe that previous or some other administration has or will draw a better line than this administration? I wish I were as optimistic as you. The last 3 administrations covering 24 years haven't done too well. This administration in a little over 2.5 years certainly hasn't created the problem nor has it had any more success solving it than it's predecessors.

If we are ever going to make progress we have to find a rational approach that people can get behind.
__________________
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."
2slow is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:09 AM   #47
2slow
Chromer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 680
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTastic84 View Post
I love the "what-about-ism" that keeps getting pointed out. "What about China and India"?

Have you seen images and videos from those countries!?! Garbage in the streets and people wearing masks to go outside because of rampant governmental environmental deregulation! Is that really where you want the US to be in 10 years?!? Because you feel the government "regulates too much" or "it'll cost money / jobs"!?!

I say, thank goodness we have a country who cares enough to spend tax money on protecting it's citizens from themselves!

Until this moron came into office, the EPA was in decent hands. Perfectly run? No! But nothing is! Now this buffoon is selling off our country's institutions to the highest bidder in order to enrich himself and his friends. He and these people have no care about the future of this planet nor do they give two poops about what happens to any of us unless you're dangling cash out of your zipper.

I love the fact that you actually believe that the government can save us citizens from ourselves. Just how much "saving" should we allow our government to do?
__________________
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."
2slow is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:19 AM   #48
Spinitrode
King Salmon
 
Spinitrode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,507
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave G View Post
Before this gets closed. First Bite, thanks. I have been saying that for years, until you get the rest of the world onboard America and all their efforts are nothing but a mute point. We all know this will go to court.
Ahh, the old "We Shouldn't Have to Do Anything Until Everyone Else Does First" argument... That's real leadership for ya! I thought our "greatness" was supposed to be setting the example, not waiting to follow someone else.

Glad people w/ that line of thinking weren't put in charge of anything important like fighting WWII, or inventing vaccines, fighting fires, etc.
Spinitrode is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:20 AM   #49
nudibranchstyle
Cutthroat
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 27
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

the mentality that we should not attempt to "protect some bug that nobody cares about" is whats going to turn our planet into a sterile concrete wasteland. ecosystems have value beyond extraction and decimation despite what the leaders of our "market" driven economy might suggest. many insects are in steep declines due to land use issues and overuse of consumer pesticides: this includes aquatic insects and arthropods that fish depend on. god forbid the government tell people they cant spray bayer 3 in 1 in their backyard and god forbid we protect a small bit of habitat for pollinators. baby boomers will crap a brick if you suggest that we shouldn't wipe the last 1% of old growth stands to save a damn owl because it's the generation of "mine, mine, mine, my property, f*** you I got mine"
nudibranchstyle is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:21 AM   #50
Don G Baldi
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Salem/Little Italy
Posts: 10,501
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTastic84 View Post
I love the "what-about-ism" that keeps getting pointed out. "What about China and India"?

Have you seen images and videos from those countries!?! Garbage in the streets and people wearing masks to go outside because of rampant governmental environmental deregulation! Is that really where you want the US to be in 10 years?!? Because you feel the government "regulates too much" or "it'll cost money / jobs"!?!

I say, thank goodness we have a country who cares enough to spend tax money on protecting it's citizens from themselves!

Until this moron came into office, the EPA was in decent hands. Perfectly run? No! But nothing is! Now this buffoon is selling off our country's institutions to the highest bidder in order to enrich himself and his friends. He and these people have no care about the future of this planet nor do they give two poops about what happens to any of us unless you're dangling cash out of your zipper.
LA and San Fran are excellent examples of 'those' countries. Public health officials are observing a rebirth of middle age diseases from the filth. But that $79 billion high speed train system is still being built.

Speaking of habitat: "There are many reasons why deforestation is taking place. People who participate in cattle ranching, logging, mining, farming, and road construction all contribute to the destruction of the rainforest. When the rainforest is cut-down at the alarming rate it has been, the earth loses 137 species of plants and animals each day."

EPA has nothing to do with that.




.
__________________
Common sense isn't evenly distributed
Don G Baldi is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:24 AM   #51
jagosh
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 270
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

How much howling in the wind can we all do? All this money and regulation with so little if any results over the years. Cool banquets and fund raising opportunities though. Good on ya!

First, NY Times is no longer the paper of record. Second, the current administration wants results when money is spent... and the EPA provides little.
__________________
"A fisherman's life is full of stories, good and bad, but as long as he keeps fishing, his life will never be empty"
jagosh is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:24 AM   #52
Herm
Ifish Nate
 
Herm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,047
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

It's too late to save this place...it's been too late for quite a while now. 80% of us have to go
__________________
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
Herm is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:25 AM   #53
650cent
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Madras
Posts: 265
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidward View Post
Probably one of the dumbest post here ever,,, last time i was in your Utopian city of Seattle it looked just like one of "those Countries"

+2
Bill
650cent is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:29 AM   #54
blueduck
Sturgeon
 
blueduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington County
Posts: 3,964
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

As some have mentioned clearly China, India, and others are problems. The question is whether or not we as a country want to continue to assume a leadership role like we always have. We have always led. Standing around pointing a finger at others as our excuse to do nothing or even relaxing present regulations isn't what we have ever done. It may take some prodding to get cooperation, but there is no question the other countries will at some point realize they cannot shite in their own mess kits forever and be successful on all fronts societally, financially, and environmentally. As an upside to us, the amount of jobs created by assembling a responsible approach to environmental issues would be impressive. As far as I am concerned doing nothing or moving backwards couldn't be more wrong on many levels. Ask your children what they want us to do.
__________________
The truth does not require your participation in order to exist. Bull**** does. Terence McKenna

Last edited by blueduck; 08-13-2019 at 10:30 AM.
blueduck is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:30 AM   #55
Don G Baldi
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Salem/Little Italy
Posts: 10,501
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagosh View Post
How much howling in the wind can we all do? All this money and regulation with so little if any results over the years. Cool banquets and fund raising opportunities though. Good on ya!

First, NY Times is no longer the paper of record. Second, the current administration wants results when money is spent... and the EPA provides little.
The Grey Lady now chooses its headlines based on Twitter polling.
__________________
Common sense isn't evenly distributed
Don G Baldi is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:35 AM   #56
SquarePeg
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 1,340
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

I might have agreed except you said this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by blueduck View Post
The key words here are 'scientists', not pundits, political operatives, and mouthpieces for special interests......

... which is utter nonsense. That is exactly what they are. Each was paid. Each was paid to produce something. Each was paid by someone who wanted something to produce that something. They're paid hacks no matter which side they're working for.


The only thing that gets labeled "pure" is what agrees with the person doing the labeling. Everything that doesn't gets labeled pseudoscience and worse. And both sides do it.


If you're not a mouthpiece for a special interest, you don't have a voice at all. Brutal, jaded, but absolute truth.
__________________
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't seen a Möbius strip ...
SquarePeg is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:50 AM   #57
uhmw
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: westlinn
Posts: 5,415
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

I was under the impression that wild salmon were next up to be placed on the endangered species list so expensive hatcheries can be shuttered and all fishing can be banned like logging was. Apparently that would make a lot of fellow ifishers ecstatic. You guys will eventually get what you want. Shutter down is what our current Oregonian and Washingtonian elected officials have been dreaming about for decades. Why change that path by amending the act??? Shutting down hatcheries and salmon fishing in the name of endangered species act will free up additional funds and lots of $ for other programs that matter to said officials.

Last edited by uhmw; 08-13-2019 at 10:59 AM.
uhmw is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:54 AM   #58
Dave G
King Halibut
 
Dave G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Beach, Owner/Operator of the Kalena
Posts: 43,611
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinitrode View Post
Ahh, the old "We Shouldn't Have to Do Anything Until Everyone Else Does First" argument... That's real leadership for ya! I thought our "greatness" was supposed to be setting the example, not waiting to follow someone else.

Glad people w/ that line of thinking weren't put in charge of anything important like fighting WWII, or inventing vaccines, fighting fires, etc.



I had to reread my post. Nowhere did I say America should do nothing. "We Shouldn't Have to Do Anything Until Everyone Else Does First"are your words. Go on over to the Salty Dog forum and see how many of these "endangered" Coho are being caught in the ocean and then look for how many Chinook are being caught in the Ocean. How about all those "endangered" Sea-lions all up and down our rivers. We need to preserve, but we need to do it more sensibly.
__________________
If it can't be Salmon, I'll take Halibut!!!

Dave G is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:56 AM   #59
Sneaker
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: SW Eugene
Posts: 329
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

So what would happen globally if the US did everything, and I mean everything, to combat climate change?

Nothing, since the biggest polluters would just keep on polluting. So we’d bankrupt ourselves and the world would still suffer, but our virtue signaling would sure look good.
__________________
Eugene Area
Sneaker is offline  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:04 AM   #60
chukardave1
Ifish Nate
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bend
Posts: 2,516
Default Re: Endangered Species Act is under attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaker View Post
So what would happen globally if the US did everything, and I mean everything, to combat climate change?

Nothing, since the biggest polluters would just keep on polluting. So we’d bankrupt ourselves and the world would still suffer, but our virtue signaling would sure look good.
Im with you on this Sneaker.

Have a frog problem over this way that would hopefully have a common sense approach used more than farmers having to plant only half their fields to deal with loss of water
chukardave1 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Cast to



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:23 AM.

Terms of Service
 
Page generated in 0.50483 seconds with 75 queries