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Old 02-27-2003, 07:02 PM   #1
Jerry Dove
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Default April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I posted this on the early thread of the tour. I thought I should start a new one. I meet with ODF this morning. How does Sat. April 26 sound for a tour of the Tillamook Forest. I also meet with a Rep. of the Rain Forest this morning, they will be there. I would like to have as many as possible show up. Let me know what you think. ODF said for you all to let us know what you want to see. This is a real chance for all to get together and look at all sides of the forrest. If we are going to talk the talk, then let's walk the walk. Thanks Jerry

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Old 02-28-2003, 01:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I'm in.
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Old 02-28-2003, 07:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Thanks Thumper. Well that's one plus me, that makes two. That's not enough. see what happens in the next couple of days. Jerry
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Old 02-28-2003, 09:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I will be there!
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Old 02-28-2003, 07:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Jerry, I had allready made plans for 4/26. But this is more important to me, I will reschedule if 4/26 is the day.
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Old 02-28-2003, 08:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
ODF said for you all to let us know what you want to see.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">80 degrees and girls in bikini's!

No, just kiddin' Jerry.
Count me in and me and rebell will work on Brion.

Thanks!
Dan
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Old 02-28-2003, 09:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

By the way Jerry, I didn't follow that thread all the way along, but is ODF, ODFW?
Oh, wait a minute. I get it, [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] it must be Oregon Department of Forestry?
Is there going to be any State (ODFW) or Federal Biologist coming along?

Dan
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Old 03-01-2003, 05:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

TTT
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Old 03-01-2003, 07:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Yes we will ask to have someone from ODFW. We really want this to be a big event. We want to have a lot of questions and answers. Some may not like the answers, but as long as we all agree to listen and have an open mind, who knows maybe we all can learn something. We can even ask private timber operators to come along and get there ideas. (LET ME SEE SOME MORE "YES I'LL BE THERE") THANKS JERRY
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Old 03-01-2003, 01:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Sounds good Jerry as I am totally ignorant when it comes to logging.
I'll learn something good or bad or better.
Give it some time and I'm sure there will be plenty. :smile:
I figure I could drag along 3 or 4 or maybe a half dozen bod's if need be.
I believe you had a lot of others comit on your other thread and you could always e-mail them if they don't catch on to your newer one.
Sounds like fun and a learning experience to me.

Dan
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Old 03-01-2003, 05:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

we have had enough say they will make it , so I will let ODf know it is a go for April 26. I will let all know where to meet. Please keep this on the top. would like to have a 100 folks show up , we could all learn something. Thanks Jerry.
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Old 03-01-2003, 07:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Jerry,
Do you have an agenda (topics,times, etc)? I was wondering if it would be OK/appropriate for 9 & 10 year olds? My kids are interested and I'll bet others would be too but it may work better for older kids depending on the topics.

Thanks,
-Mark
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Old 03-02-2003, 06:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

TTT
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Old 03-02-2003, 01:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Jerry,

Got to thinking last night, and what I would like to see on Sat. April 26th, is a tour in the forest along with an ODFW biologist to observe and later after the tour is completed, we all get together for a luncheon and open discussion.

What do you think?

Dan

PS&gt; I talked to a friend of mine today Brad Schoenborn who is very well known in the tackle industry and another friend that is a river guide in this area, and they and there families are very interested in the tour.
Couldn't commit yet at this time due to there unknown work schedule.
It's a ways off yet, and we will get the bod's.
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Old 03-02-2003, 02:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Keep then coming. Yes bring the kids, after all they are the ones that will have to look after it all later. Jerry
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Old 03-02-2003, 06:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

OK, Jerry,

This what I came up with after researching the Tillamook tour archives.
This is what I have gathered in the two Tillamook threads. Or was there three? Did I miss one?

Committed:
jerry dove
rebell
DepoeBayDan - (probably 2 or 3 others and most likely 6 )
Barviewrocks
Pilar's Mate - (with possibly 2 or 3 others)
Thumper


Maybe's:
norms gone fishing too
Bill Monroe
GutshotApe
brshooter

Inquiries:
THE KIWANDA KID
Wild Chrome
[email protected]
skookummark


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[ 03-06-2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-02-2003, 07:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Add my wife and I to the list of "Probably". 90 percent sure at this time. Sounds very interesting.

[ 03-02-2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: brshooter ]
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Old 03-02-2003, 11:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Done deal shooter!
As Jerry would say, welcome aboard!
I did place you in the maybe column however, and if you decide you can commit, we will upgrade you.
Jerry's going to have to take care of this responisibility pretty soon though, cause it is his gig, and I am ever increasingly becoming busy.

Brion Lutz, where are you?

[ 03-03-2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-03-2003, 08:39 AM   #19
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

DepoeBayDan,

Quote:
Brion Lutz, where are you?
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I should be on the Columbia somewhere springer fishing with the kids and Jack Glass...at least that's what I set up at the Sportsman's Show in early February &lt;grin&gt;.

Since the tour is sort of a promo by the timber industry for the current logging plan, what you folks might want to do would be contact the Rainforest Coalition since their plan to do the logging in a more salmon friendly and watershed friendly way was the cause of the original freak out. That would seem the place to start.

Jerry mentioned that someone from the Rainforest Coalition was making a presentation but Mari Gest the head of the Coalition was unaware of any invite or tour on the 26th.

Could just be a communication lag between her and whoever Jerry was talking to.

I'm going to keep in touch with the Rainforest Coalition and go on one of their informational tours...hopefully it will be a fishing tour on one of the Tillamook watershed rivers since the Coalition's key is protection of the salmon habitat and watershed.

Quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Mari Anne Gest
To: Brion Lutz
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Tillamook Forest Tour April 26


We have not yet been invited to participate in this tour but if we are I'd love to have you. Thanks
Mari Anne Gest
Executive Director
Tillamook Rainforest Coalition
721 NW Ninth Ave. Suite 280
Portland, OR 97209
Cell: 503-851-8845
Wk: 503-248-0178
Fax: 503-222-1805
[email protected]

"We are continually faced by great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems."
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Have fun. I'll send pix of the fish.

Brion
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Old 03-03-2003, 06:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Depoe Bay Dan: You make me want to cuss, but jennie says we can't do that on this thing. OK This is not a loging show. I am setting this up as an edcational tool!!! the rain col. has been invited through DAVID MASKOUIST, that probably isn't the right spelling. They should get there S--- TOGETHER. ---OK--Jerry
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Old 03-03-2003, 07:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I AM SORRY DEPOBAY DAN. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED TO BRIAN. IT JUST MADE ME SEE A BLUR!!!!! YOU TRY TO DO SOMETHING GOOD AND SOMEBODY HAS TO TEAR IT A[PART. SOMETIMES I THINK PEOPLE HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO. JERRY
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Old 03-05-2003, 02:03 AM   #22
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Hey, no problem Jerry. I looked at it the same way when I saw Brion's post.
I have made my share of mistakes!
But, I have learned much more since I called you on the phone also.

I originately suggested that we get some bio's from both sides of the issue, and haven't heard any results.
I have been asked by individuals in the valley, what are they going to show us, and what aren't they going to show us?

It sounds like a good deal, but, is a little lopsided as it stands.
Don't get me wrong, and I'm all for it, but, it seems to be a propaganda tour as I once posted (but deleted).
I have learned off the site since, that is exactely what it in all probability it will be.

I have since heard of the "butherism" that continues to go on, and I have seen it first hand on a wild coho stream survey I went on in January.
I have been suggested that maybe we make this a dual tour, (Forestry and...) someone like Brion.
Maybe the "rain forest coalition" as he suggested?
I believe the way you have this set-up would be like the tobacco company taking us on a tour of there plantations and saying, "isn't this nice, all these crops & all these employees and we are funding your schools"!
Just like there propaganda adds on TV!
That doesn't make it good, or right.
I can get some bod's there, but am loosing interest unless this is going to be a fair shot at the real deal.
I heard but don't know if it is true, they (forester's) leave more buffer off the roads than on the streams, just to hide the devestation from the people.
And, I don't doubt that, because up to 4 years ago when I used to hunt, you got back there, and it was an abortion! I couldn't believe my own eyes what I saw!
It was like a "Lunar" landschape!
It got so bad, the Elk didn't hardly have a place to hide!
Sorry Jerry, I will go on the tour regardless, but unless there are both sides represented , I know I will not gain much.
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Old 03-05-2003, 08:07 AM   #23
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I for one will make sure I get something out of this. I do not often get the opportunity to talk with the forestry people in a non confrontational situation to see what their plans are for managing the forests and river habitat. As I understand it, these are the people that are empowered to managed the forest and spawning habitat. I have a lot of questions that I would like answers from the source as opposed "I think I heard" which is questionable. In the end, success for me will be determined if I can identify some opportunities to help out the situation for improving spawning of wild fish in the rivers.
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Old 03-05-2003, 08:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

DAN&lt;DAN&lt;DAN--I do not know how to say it any better. I plan on having all sides of the issues present. ODF has asked and I have posted, what do they want to see?? ODF wants you all to set the tone. Gee who knows I might get up there and listen and change my mind and say let's not log any more, hell who knows? Well maybe not. I just sent an email to the president of the Oregon motorcycle Ass. and invited them. When you hear people making comments, then invite them along. Dan This logging that you talked about that the elk stay out of, where is it? Let's take a look at that, that could be one site to stop at. Any others that you or any one else can think of, let me know. thanks again Jerry
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Old 03-05-2003, 06:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

We need you there brion!! We need people who use the forest in every way imaginable. The purpose of this trip to me is to see what everyones perspective of the forest is.

I know logging, I know fishing, I also rode motorcycles all over the Tillamook forest for years. My first concern is the fish, I am going to make sure they are being protected. But I am going with an open mind. If I don't like what I see, all will know it.

I can't understand why anyone that is against logging, or the current plan for the Tillamook forest would not want to participate. This is your chance to speak out to the people who are making the plans for the Tillamook forests future. Anyone who really cares about the fish and the area in my mind has to be there. Saying that it is only a promo for the current plan, is being closed minded and bullheaded.

If you really care, YOU WILL BE THERE!!!!!!!!

[ 03-05-2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: rebell ]
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Old 03-05-2003, 07:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I talked to ODF today. They suggest you all bring your own lunch. That might be best. Maybe Tillamook Anglers can brings soft drinks. How does that sound. Also they want to hear about what you want to see and hear. Please email me with your concerns, questions, or what ever. I will forward them to ODF. I have copyed everything so far and have given it to them. Let's really make this something that all will rember. OK . Thanks Jerry
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Old 03-05-2003, 08:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

is this a walking tour or driving with stops for questions at differnt places
need to know befor i can says ya or na
thanks
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Old 03-05-2003, 08:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

rebell, barviewrocks, and Jerry.

I appreciate everything you guys said.
And I was only implying the suggestions I have heard off the site by members and non members.
I am not a closed minded individual, and Jerry you stated you want all or both sides reprsented in this tour.
I applaud you for that!
I will make the tour, and will promote it even more after reading your replies.
I think this a great Idea Jerry.

I am very nieve when it comes to habitat and logging practices, and it is a new issue that is gaining importance to me, because I do care and have fought and stressed over the importance of wild fish.

The problem I have found with a
lot of Portland folks, April 26th is right at the peak of the Willamette Spring Chinook season right in there back yard!
It's a tough decision to give up that wonderful fishery on a Saturday (especially for "weekend warriers") right smack in there back yard, to drive 2 hours to the Coast.
And that is a major conflict with many!

Keep up the good work, and I need to make a phone call before it gets too late and hopefully report on todays encouraging ODFW ocean Salmon meeting in Newport.

[ 03-06-2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-05-2003, 09:12 PM   #29
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

DepoeBayDan,

Quote:
I have been suggested that maybe we make this a dual tour, (Forestry and...) someone like Brion.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Wathchutalkin Willis!!

I'm on the receiveing end of the "tours". If I could give the tours, I'd really know it all &lt;grin&gt;. If I hear from the folks at the Tillamook Rainforest Coalition that they are doing any informational tours, I'll post the info on IFish.

I'd go on Jerry's tour if I hadn't made some heavy duty fishing plans. Good to get the views of those who want to stick with the current plan and why.

However, that's kind of the peak Springer time (I hope) and I've got trips organized.

Brion
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Old 03-05-2003, 11:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Brion, did I forget to mention that it was "kind of the peak Springer time"? &lt;Grin&gt;
I was suggested by someone that the best time of year to do a tour was in the winter months.
That way you could see through the trees a bit better. (reminds me of the my old hunting days).
What the heck are you doing on here anyway you PC geek? :grin:
You're suppose to me in Tahoe or somewhere with kids in skiing comp.
Don't tell me you have some kind of cell internet, because if you do, I will keep some of my "top secret" fishin' holes off of here. :grin:

I don't really care who goes on this tour, I am just there for the learning benefits as long as both sides are represented.
Not to mention meeting some ifisher's.

Dan
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:58 AM   #31
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Jerry,

Would it be possible to post a map of the Forest Tour, for those who are unable to attend on April 26?

Please post the names of the representiatives from O.D.F. & O.D.F. & W, so those unable to attend, can speak with them if they wish.

Is Tillamook Anglers a sponsor of this tour?
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:16 PM   #32
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Big Dog,


https://www.ifish.net/cgi-local/ultim...c;f=1;t=021611

https://www.ifish.net/cgi-local/ultim...c;f=1;t=021637

And if you want to go back to where this all started:

https://www.ifish.net/cgi-local/ultim...c;f=1;t=021090
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

After searching the Tillamook tour archives, I found this started 3 threads back.
I just updated the list by making 2 changes.

Committed:
jerry dove
rebell
GutshotApe
The Greek
DepoeBayDan - (possibly 2 - 6 others)
Barviewrocks
Pilar's Mate - (with possibly 2 or 3 others)
Thumper


Maybe's:
norms gone fishing too
Bill Monroe
brshooter

Inquiries:
THE KIWANDA KID
Wild Chrome
[email protected]
skookummark


Come on ifisher's, sign up!
We have a long ways to go.
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Old 03-06-2003, 06:19 PM   #34
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

No this is not a walking tour. I can post the names of agency folks after I know for sure who will be there. I would hope all could give up a day of fishing for something worth while. Brian, folks would really like for you to be there. The Oregonian ( Bill Monroe) and Statesman Journal ( Henry Miller) are both going to try to be there. Yes the Rain Forest group will be there. Please invite any other groups that you can think of to invite. Let's really make this interesting for all. Jerry
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Old 03-06-2003, 06:33 PM   #35
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Originally posted by DepoeBayDan:
It was suggested by someone that the best time of year to do a tour was in the winter months.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I disagree....the best time to get a good idea of the adequacy of streamside buffer strips (that are supposed to provide shading for the stream and LWD recruitment) is in the growing season when all the deciduous brush & trees are fully leafed. By April 26 most everything but bigleaf maple will be in full summer foliage and even the maples will be 2/3 or more fully leafed out. So April 26 would be a good day to do it . It is easy to come to the wrong impression :whazzup: if you make judgements on buffer strip adequacy in the winter months.
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Old 03-06-2003, 06:54 PM   #36
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
I would hope all could give up a day of fishing for something worth while.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I don't think you implied that fishing is not worthwhile?

Quote:
I tried my darndest to talk him into going along, but problem is as with a
lot of Portland folks, April 26th is right at the peak of the Willamette Spring Chinook season right in there back yard!
It's a tough decision to give up that wonderful fishery on a Saturday (especially for "weekend warriers") right smack in there back yard, to drive 2 hours to the Coast.
And that is a major conflict with many!
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Tasty critter's Jerry and Springer season only rolls around once a year. I think if I still lived up there, it might make a tough decision for me as well.
And some of these guys just go nuts over springers.

But I will be there. I could go up to the Clack and be a "bank magot" or jump in my friends sled, but touring the forest sounds like fun and educational to me.
By the way, I'll be delivering tackle in Hebo and Tillamook on Saturday. If you're around and nothing planned, I'll buy you lunch and compare notes.
Maybe I could drop off the plastics I am donating to the Barview jetty gig, and you could get them to Jennie fish in case I don't make the gig.

Dopey Dan
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Old 03-06-2003, 07:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Well Gutshot,
It's obvious you know a hell of lot more about forestry than I and most folks on this site.
I'll take your word for that one.
By the way Gutshot, I posted info about yesterday's Ocean Salmon Industry Group" meeting on ifish.
Lookin' good.

Quote:
Dan This logging that you talked about that the elk stay out of, where is it? Let's take a look at that, that could be one site to stop at.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Jerry. That wouldn't work to well. It's right behind my house in Depoe Bay and that is about 60 miles from Tillamook.
It's back there around the Boise tie gate. I believe it ties to GP property at that location.
It's right off the Siletz River near the "Bulls Bag" which is popular for fishing & hunting.
There is a trib stream (Roy Creek) that flows right through the lunar landschape.
Outch!
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Originally posted by DepoeBayDan:
There is a trib stream (Roy Creek) that flows right through the lunar landschape.
Outch!
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Take my word for this, too: That Lunar landscape is temporary. The 1st year or 2 after clearcutting it may not look real pretty....unless you're a deer or elk. Then you'd think all that brush looked like breakfast, lunch and dinner. And each year the vegetation recovers a little more, and all of it is good to excellent deer/elk habitat.
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:28 PM   #39
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

DepoeBayDan,

Quote:
But he soon realized, I called because I respect his stance (even though I disagree with him on some issues), but we had a good lenghly conversation. I tried my darndest to talk him into going along, but problem is as with a lot of Portland folks, April 26th is right at the peak of the Willamette Spring Chinook season right in there back yard!
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually I only just realized why you called when you mentioned it in the message here on Ifish...you were rambl'in on and it was late.

Quote:
I was suggested by someone that the best time of year to do a tour was in the winter months.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Probably depends on the people. For me the best time would be June/July after the spring run is over and before the summer/fall run starts.

April 26 doesn't work for me...I have 3 kids flying in for two days of fishing with some guides...plans made in early Feb.

I'm sure there will be other times, other tours, public hearings etc. on the Tillamook Coalition plan.

Be good to hear the feedback from the tour from all who go, get as many perspectives as possible.

Quote:
You're suppose to me in Tahoe or somewhere with kids in skiing comp.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">USCSA College Championships actually. Boston College (that's "our" team) is doing well...girls were 2nd, guys 3rd through the GS competition...you did want to know this?

Quote:
Don't tell me you have some kind of cell internet,
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Not to shock you but the Tahoe area has had land line phone service for some time now &lt;grin&gt;.

Brion
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

GSA,

So, just because habitat destruction is temporary it is ok? :whazzup:

Not in my mind.

[ 03-06-2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:19 PM   #41
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Not to shock you but the Tahoe area has had land line phone service for some time now &lt;grin&gt;.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I even heard they had a casino!
I was just joking around with you Brion. It's my nature.
But seriously, I don't know how that computer stuff works when you are on the road. PC's are new to me.
I know they have lab tops and I believe I might have heard before something about cell phones & PC's.
Too high tech for me. Last year when I traveled, I checked my mail through web mail at friends and occasinally at the library.

[ 03-06-2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-06-2003, 11:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Could someone clue me in? I must have missed the post that discussed what you guys (and Gals) are going out to walk through the forest for.
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:26 AM   #43
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Updated Tillamook Forest Tour list 3/7/2003

Committed:
jerry dove
rebell
GutshotApe
The Greek
DepoeBayDan - (possibly 2 - 6 others)
Barviewrocks
Pilar's Mate - (with possibly 2 or 3 others)
Thumper


Maybe's:
norms gone fishing too
Bill Monroe (uh, oh yea, Oregonian)
brshooter
Henry Miller (Statesman Journal)


Inquiries:
THE KIWANDA KID
Wild Chrome
[email protected]
skookummark


Come on ifisher's, sign up!
We have a long ways to go.
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:38 AM   #44
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

So, just because habitat destruction is temporary it is ok? :whazzup:

Not in my mind.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Who said there was habitat "destruction"? No doubt about it, clearcut logging CHANGES the habitat......and to the casual observer it certainly may LOOK like destruction......but the logging & reforestaton process closely mimics the natural plant successional process.....and, done properly, logging does not negatively impact fish habitat, at all. If you look into it with an open mind, I think you will find that most loggers, most of the time, do a good job of harvesting the wood without destroying habitat. Logging provides early successional stage vegetation that is critically important to deer & elk.....and not found in unlogged forests.

Its easy to imagine terrible images of whole hillsides oozing mud & silt into the unprotected stream that was logged across, up, down, and thru......and 40-50 years ago, when there was no forest practices act, you might have actually seen some of those......but the on-the-ground reality today is something else entirely.

Going on the tour? :whazzup:
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Old 03-07-2003, 10:38 AM   #45
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Dan: there you go again. The area your talking about is not in the Tillamook Forest. It sounds like it might be on private land. Lets stick to the Tillamook. Jerry
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Old 03-07-2003, 05:58 PM   #46
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Dan: there you go again. The area youre talking about is not in the Tillamook Forest. It sounds like it might be on private land. Lets stick to the Tillamook. Jerry
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">There you go Jerry.
No the land I was talking about is no wheres near Tillamook (60 miles or so to the south).
It is private land (something I didn't understand a few years back).
I is GP or Georgia Pacific land just outside of Boise property.
I remember saying to hunters back then (4-9 years ago), this is good for the deer & elk all these clear cuts.
I do remember some of there responses were something like; "Well, I think they over did it though."
This is kinda new to me, and I was just thinking of the deer & elk back then and not considering our wild Salmonoids then. (I wasn't into chasing salmon or steelhead much at that time).
One thing I did notice however is I rarely saw an animal or "sign" in those areas.
I now believe it was because there wasn't enough timber left standing that they didn't have enough refuge left nearby to escape to run & hide. (Just my theory).

My hope is Gutshot is correct in his last reply!
And since this thread or three started, I have been looking into it and it seems that the forest is managed in different ways depending who owns it or who is managing it?
Maybe Gutshot can shed some light on this.

I'm getting more excited about this tour all the time, because it seems there are a lot of unanswered questions for a lot of us including myself.

One last note; when I participated on a wild coho stream survey on Rock Creek (a trib to Devils Lake) this year and two years ago, I was unimpressed with the "buffer" (all 25' in mine and the surveyors estimation).
Then again, this is not the Tillamook State Forest.
Dan

[ 03-07-2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

GSA,

Quote:
Who said there was habitat "destruction"? No doubt about it, clearcut logging CHANGES the habitat......and to the casual observer it certainly may LOOK like destruction......but the logging & reforestaton process closely mimics the natural plant successional process..
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Come on now.


At Portland City Club presentation, even the VP of Weyerhauser admitted that clear cutting was a natural disaster.

And what "natural" process is clear cutting timber and the road building supposed to mimic?

The salmon did not evolve and prosper in an environment that included logging at all, much less clear cutting.

It's a given that the logging has a negative impact on the salmon. The only question is the magnitude of the damage different types of logging have on the salmon and are there any techniques that have a minimal effect, an effect that can be tolerated by the salmon.

Brion

[ 03-07-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: BrionLutz ]
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:53 PM   #48
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Brion - You should go on the tour.

Yes, a wilderness area might be better for salmon than a managed forest.....assuming it doesn't burn repeatedly like has been happening a lot lately. Done right, according to the rules in the state FPA, which applies to state-owned forests and private forests, logging and roadbuilding do not seriously impact fish. Forest mgmt. creates a lot of good, family-wage jobs and generates a lot of tax revenue, two things Oregon needs a lot more of. And it can be done without damage to fish runs or fish/tourism jobs.

You should go on the tour.
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:58 PM   #49
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

In the day's that salmon evolved and prospered, we didn't have thousands of so called sport fishermen harvesting them and pointing there fingers at everything else for their decline.

It's time to stop pointing fingers! Like it or not, we as sportfishermen are as much to blame as anything else in the Tillamook area.

I am starting to think that this tour is another waste of taxpayer money, and my time.
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Old 03-07-2003, 09:04 PM   #50
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

[quote]Originally posted by DepoeBayDan:
Quote:
I participated on a wild coho stream survey on Rock Creek (a trib to Devils Lake) this year and two years ago, I was unimpressed with the "buffer" (all 25' in mine and the surveyors estimation).
Then again, this is not the Tillamook State Forest.
Dan
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">DBDan - How long ago was the area logged? The current forest practices act rules require Riparian Mgmt. Area widths of 50' (each side) for small fish-bearing streams, 70' for medium, and 100' for large streams. There are minimum standards (conifer basal area) required to be left standing in the RMAs, brush is not to be disturbed, etc. Some logging is allowed on individual tree basis on the uphill side of the RMA if the tree is leaning away from the stream and can be removed without damaging residual vegetation. These rules have been in effect for just a couple years....the old rule required 25' buffer widths on small streams....but that was then.....
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Old 03-07-2003, 09:14 PM   #51
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

GSA,

Quote:
Yes, a wilderness area might be better for salmon than a managed forest.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">There is no "might" in the science at all. Logging is not part of the ecosystem that created and keeps the salmon alive.

You had claimed clear cutting "mimiced" a natural process and that isn't correct.

Quote:
....assuming it doesn't burn repeatedly like has been happening a lot lately.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Actually the science and the history assumes it does burn.

Quote:
Done right, according to the rules in the state FPA, which applies to state-owned forests and private forests, logging and roadbuilding do not seriously impact fish.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">I don't think there is any scientist that agrees with that statement.

Quote:
Forest mgmt. creates a lot of good, family-wage jobs and generates a lot of tax revenue, two things Oregon needs a lot more of.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">It does it at the expense of other industries directly via the destruction of the salmon streams, indirectly by the degradation of the watershed.

You really should read the science and economic report that the Tillamook Rainforest Coalition is based upon.

Brion
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Old 03-07-2003, 09:33 PM   #52
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Brion - I have a forest mgmt. degree from Univ. of Washington and over 30 yrs experience in the woods....and a lifetime of living in the northwest. I consider myself an amateur naturalist. Clearcut/burn silviculture COMES CLOSEST to mimicking the natural ecosystem that our westside Douglas-fir forests and fish evolved in. Today's FPA ensures that fish habitat is protected and enhanced. Most people with the background I have would agree that the societal benefits of having a portion of our forest landbase (i.e. all of the Tillamook State Forest) dedicated to multiple-use outweigh any negative impacts on fisheries. We can have our cake and eat it, too.

Actually Brion, maybe neither one of us should go on the tour. We should let two people who are undecided take our seats. I am sure I'm right....and I'm guessing you're sure you are right, too. I just wonder what your educational or professional background is that would allow you to be so sure. I mean, when out in the woods, do you really know what you're seeing when you see it? :whazzup:
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Old 03-07-2003, 11:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

No Gutshot, dont even think of backing out on this tour!
You are the most intellectual person I have seen on this thread, and probably the most knowledgeable person on forestry practices also.
Brion seems to be a good kid, but without basis and facts.
Seems he is involved in a cultish rainforest coalition and I appreciate him, but question his authority?
Thats the purpose of this tour!
And if he chooses to fish for springers instead, (which I cant blame him he had planned it ahead of time with family), but, he looses if we all come to the same conclusion without him!

I just think he is reading a lop-sided bible.
But, I want to find out for myself.

Did I ever say, great Idea Jerry?

Dan
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Old 03-07-2003, 11:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

By the way Gutshot, cool flag!

Dan
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Old 03-07-2003, 11:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
And it can be done without damage to fish runs or fish/tourism jobs.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">If this is what you truly believe Gutshot, and in reality is or can happen, (and I have my doubts, but don't know), then show us and educate the miss-informed.
And life in general will be a whole lot better for the multitudes.

Dan

[ 03-08-2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]
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Old 03-08-2003, 07:51 AM   #56
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

I ain't going on the tour, but I encourage those who do to make special effort to look at culverts, roads and ditches - especially where they bleed sediments into streams.

Roads have always been, and remain, a dire serious problem for fisheries due to the silt that they deliver. This remains the case under the FPA
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Old 03-08-2003, 08:08 AM   #57
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

GSA,

You tout the fact that the handbook for logging has changed for the better.

You promote the timber industry as being a viable economic factor.

What you are missing is the fact that while our forest practices act has changed in recent years, so has our global and local economies and no, timber really is not the economic cornucopia it once was in the NW nor will it likely be again.

I find it real interesting that the local "timber can be our economic saviour" crowd doesn't talk about the roadside logs that were cut and decked by the Forest Service in the Bisquit Fire area. These logs are bucked, stacked and ready for loading right beside the roads. The problem is, the price of logs is so low no one has even bid on them!! The sales that have been offered in the Applegate/Williams Cr. watersheds have gonen for 3 to 5 cents a ft. if bid on at all.

Just as science and forestry have changed with time, so has our economy and the huge influx of soft wood from outside the area.

You also talk about forests burning over and over. That can not be substantiated with fact in many cases if at all. In this discussion you fail to mention that only since, at the urging of the timber industry and Forest Service, we started supressing fires hs the fuel loads built to the volitile level we have now. Slow, cool fire had been the historical norm but with the supression of fires came the invasion of ladder fuels and heavy brush, thus the hot, desctructive fires of today. Clearcutting does not mimic cool, slow moving fires which are what nature provided and what are desireable for forest health.
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Old 03-08-2003, 08:41 AM   #58
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
It's time to stop pointing fingers! Like it or not, we as sportfishermen are as much to blame as anything else in the Tillamook area.

I am starting to think that this tour is another waste of taxpayer money, and my time.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Well rebell,
That's the reason for going on this tour.
We need to dig into the various aspects of what is happening with our salmonids. See what is being done right and what can be improved upon whether it be logging practices, over harvesting, hatchery practices, etc.
And this is a good place to start.

Hope you and Gutshot are there. I will be there myself.
Gutshot obviously has faith in what he believes or he wouldn't attend the tour.
The reason I'm going is to learn something.

I'm going to e-mail Jennie in a few when I'm done here and ask her to pull the plug on me so I can refrain from replying on this site untill I take care of myself and get well.

I have a terrible time dealing with some of the negative attitudes on this site presently.
Not on this particular thread, but on some others.
I've been dealing with the uneducated, bullheaded, barbershop/barstoll biology of the coastal mentality here for 9 years now and running and it has taken it's toll on me.
We have made great improvements on this part of the coast and have proven we have taken the right steps.
That's not to say we can't do more.
But the "bashing" continues.

I made my case at the ODFW meeting the other day, and removed a large burden that I have been dealing with for 4-5 years regarding the handeling of wild coho out in the salt.
It was real stressful considering I was basically pointing my finger at the guys that I do business with.
But my sole purpose was that they might disscuss during and after the meeting better ways to handle these very important fish.
I do know I got the ball rolling.

Now I'm going to work on myself.
See ya at the tour on the 26th.

Dan
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Old 03-08-2003, 02:19 PM   #59
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

You promote the timber industry as being a viable economic factor. What you are missing is the fact that while our forest practices act has changed in recent years, so has our global and local economies and no, timber really is not the economic cornucopia it once was in the NW nor will it likely be again.


You also talk about forests burning over and over. That can not be substantiated with fact in many cases if at all. In this discussion you fail to mention that only since, at the urging of the timber industry and Forest Service, we started supressing fires hs the fuel loads built to the volitile level we have now. Slow, cool fire had been the historical norm but with the supression of fires came the invasion of ladder fuels and heavy brush, thus the hot, desctructive fires of today. Clearcutting does not mimic cool, slow moving fires which are what nature provided and what are desireable for forest health.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">No, I never said the timber industry is the cure-all for the region's economic woes. For one thing, since the heyday of the industry 30 yrs ago the population of Oregon has doubled. Even if we had all the oldgrowth back and could log it like before, the industry wouldn't be the Big Dog it once was in Oregon. But it could still be a major factor in a healthy sustainable economy for Oregon....not utilizing our forests would be like Iowa not growing corn. Its one of the few significant, renewable, natural economic advantages we have.

Straydog - Please don't try to argue forestry or forest ecology with me....its obvious you don't know much about it. No slam intended....but I think its true.......i.e. you apparently never heard of the huge, destructive Nestucca Fires of the 1840s...burned over a million acres in a series of burns.....almost everthing from the Umpqua to the Nestucca and from the coast to the valley. The Siuslaw N.F. now covers much of the burned area....and has a 100-150 yr-old natural stand of very nice timber. The westside Douglas-fir Region forests have a much different fire ecology than the forests you are be referring to. These forests go for long periods with no fire....then after decades or centuries of fuel build-up, they burn when the right combination of lightning strikes followed by dry, east winds occurs. I once heard the estimated average fire cycle for the Siuslaw Nat'l.Forest is about 90 years on any given site.

In the Klamath and Siskyou Mtns there are different forests with totally different tree, shrub and brush species....where what you say about a fire ecology featuring relatively frequent, slow moving ground fires occurs more frequently....and may dominate in some areas. Of the 500,000-ac Biscuit fire, 300,000 acres didn't burn hot and there are many islands of unburned green timber. But, 200,000 acres that burned was mature timber that was killed. Got any idea how much local school revenue 200,000 acres of mature timber would have generated if put on a sustained-yield harvest schedule? Having logging roads in there would have made putting out the Biscuit fire easier, too....might have kept it under 10,000 acres instead of half a million.

Yes, I suspect there may be a potential glut on the market if even just a small portion of roadside logs are decked and put up for sale....didn't I read where R&R shut down the last mill around there recently? Believe me, if a sawmill felt it could rely on a steady supply of timber from the area, one would step up and operate it. But the dead timber will be no good in another year or so....I'll be surprised if much of is salvaged. And, just as the Tillamook Burn reburned three times at 6-year intevals, over the next decade or two we will very likely see reburns in the Biscuit fire as the killed trees dry out, limbs fall and accumulate, and lightning and east winds do their natural thing.

You can plan on seeing a lot of really nice, red sunsets from Grass Pants in the coming years.
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Old 03-08-2003, 04:14 PM   #60
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Default Re: April 26 Sat. Tour Tillamook Forest ?

"Straydog - Please don't try to argue forestry or forest ecology with me....its obvious you don't know much about it...........

......In the Klamath and Siskyou Mtns there are different forests with totally different tree, shrub and brush species....where what you say about a fire ecology featuring relatively frequent, slow moving ground fires occurs more frequently....and may dominate in some areas."

I guess even with my lack of a degree and your experience, even I a mere mortal have learned something. No, I may not "know much about it" in your technical terms however almost 30 years of observing and managing my own small woodlot and about 10 years involved in natural resource volunteer work I have learned a few things.

I concede I was comparing the nature of our local forests to that up north and now realize the error of my ways in that regard. Thanks for pointing that out.

Tell ya what, I won't argue north state forest ecology with you if don't argue south state mill closures and wood gluts with me.

No, R and R has not closed. They have announced they will shortly if a buyer is not found. The employees are exploring ways to buy it as are other entities, one most suprising but I will not share that at this time.

Two lumber supply companies shut down in the valley this week due to low prices and an ongoing glut in the market. (not potential, real and ongoing) I sat next to a life long friend at my daughters Basketball game to day. (warriors Rule!! 36-20!) He works for one of the two remaining mills in GP. He said he has been shut down for two weeks. I asked if it was from wood shortage. He laughed, said "nope, we can't sell the wood we got, we sure don't need more."

Yes, the timber industry has a place in our economy and should provide some good jobs, but many down here are promoting it to be our savior and it can not. The most frustrating part is that our elected reps. seem to be buying into the misconception.
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