What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's? - www.ifish.net
The Oregonian's Bill Monroe!

Go Back   www.ifish.net > Ifish Fishing and Hunting > Ifish Community

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-09-2016, 05:25 PM   #1
panheadsully
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rainier, OR
Posts: 160
Default What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Thoughts?

panheadsully is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-09-2016, 05:31 PM   #2
freespool
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: woodstock
Posts: 18,273
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

10 to 16 million.
__________________
salmon hugger





"A curious thing happens when fish stocks decline: People who aren't aware of the old levels accept the new ones as normal. Over generations, societies adjust their expectations downward to match prevailing conditions." Kennedy Warne
freespool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 05:49 PM   #3
Gun Rod Bow
King Salmon
 
Gun Rod Bow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sherwood, OR
Posts: 14,010
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

"In 1866 the first salmon cannery on the Columbia River, the Hapgood, Hume and Company, opened for business. Canned salmon quickly became a cheap food source for the working class. By 1883, over 50 such canneries operated in the Columbia River Basin"

"Cannery operators believed the salmon supply to be endless, and as a consequence, the salmon industry quickly grew wasteful. Not only were large portions of the fish discarded, but also many complete species of fish were discarded, as the fishermen caught more fish than the canneries could process. During the spring and summer seasons, often the canneries processed only Chinook salmon. Canneries dumped other species back into the rivers. In 1895 it was estimated that 7 million pounds of fish were discarded. By the 1890s the fish population was declining"

Dams weren't built until the 30's.

Source: http://content.lib.washington.edu/salmonweb/
__________________
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." Greek Proverb
Bundìn er bàtlaus mađur
Gun Rod Bow is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 05-09-2016, 05:55 PM   #4
Joe Dirt
Chromer
 
Joe Dirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 993
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

100 billion...

__________________
-Life's a garden...dig it!
Joe Dirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 06:26 PM   #5
eyeFISH
King Salmon
 
eyeFISH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 17,428
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
150 years later.... we're still dealing with the so-called "Salmon Crisis" and yet commercial overfishing continues on without adequate oversight.
__________________
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg

Long Live the Kings!
eyeFISH.... The Keen Eye MD
eyeFISH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 06:42 PM   #6
270wsm
Steelhead
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 429
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

About 18 million.
270wsm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:04 PM   #7
cutplugherring
Ifish Nate
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tacoma, Wa.
Posts: 2,170
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
"In 1866 the first salmon cannery on the Columbia River, the Hapgood, Hume and Company, opened for business. Canned salmon quickly became a cheap food source for the working class. By 1883, over 50 such canneries operated in the Columbia River Basin"

"Cannery operators believed the salmon supply to be endless, and as a consequence, the salmon industry quickly grew wasteful. Not only were large portions of the fish discarded, but also many complete species of fish were discarded, as the fishermen caught more fish than the canneries could process. During the spring and summer seasons, often the canneries processed only Chinook salmon. Canneries dumped other species back into the rivers. In 1895 it was estimated that 7 million pounds of fish were discarded. By the 1890s the fish population was declining"

Dams weren't built until the 30's.

Source: http://content.lib.washington.edu/salmonweb/
This is more like it. What would the dam counts be before commercial fishing?
cutplugherring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:39 PM   #8
Lucky21
Chromer
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: the desert
Posts: 503
Default

I read some where once that the columbia salmon run was larger than all alaskan rivers put together.
Lucky21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:17 PM   #9
flatman
King Salmon
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north coast
Posts: 7,935
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

it was so large they didnt need bridges they just drove their wagons over the river on the backs of the fish.
flatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:49 PM   #10
roosevelt
King Salmon
 
roosevelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: transient
Posts: 23,559
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

It greatly fluctuated like it does today
roosevelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:49 PM   #11
Audball
Tuna!
 
Audball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 165 miles NE of God's Country
Posts: 1,128
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

I've always heard they estimated the average pre-commercial fishing numbers to be around 20 million annually.
__________________
Drive fast, take chances.
Audball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:51 PM   #12
roosevelt
King Salmon
 
roosevelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: transient
Posts: 23,559
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Dirt View Post
100 billion...

No surprise, but I think Joe dirt gets best reply of the year. I just wish he would let capt 40 back
roosevelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:28 PM   #13
eyeFISH
King Salmon
 
eyeFISH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 17,428
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?
TRICK QUESTION... they COULDN'T count them before the dams
__________________
http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg

Long Live the Kings!
eyeFISH.... The Keen Eye MD
eyeFISH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 11:59 PM   #14
Irishrover
Tuna!
 
Irishrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt Hood/The Coast
Posts: 1,493
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

The runs were declining prior to 1877. That is the year the first fish hatchery on the Columbia system was opened. It was a commercially operated hatchery and it was built on the Clackamas River near where the ODF&W has it's offices in Clackamas. They even clipped the adipose fin back then. The cause of the decline was over fishing by commercial interest. After 1877 many more hatcheries began to appear to help rebuild the runs but the science was not there yet, and they struggled. Given the different runs there were fish in the millions. The dams did not have an impact until some sixty years after the fish started the decline. Commercial fishing was made unlawful on the Willamette River some where around 1915 due to diminished run sizes, years before the dams went in.
__________________
Teresa D Duckworth Offshore

Last edited by Irishrover; 05-10-2016 at 08:13 AM.
Irishrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 06:38 AM   #15
MsOutdrs
King Salmon
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
Posts: 9,086
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeFISH View Post
150 years later.... we're still dealing with the so-called "Salmon Crisis" and yet commercial overfishing continues on without adequate oversight.
Money talks!!
MsOutdrs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 07:10 AM   #16
panheadsully
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rainier, OR
Posts: 160
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

So what kind of impact do you think the Dams had on the fish? It sounds like commercial fishing actually was the root cause of the decline in Salmon Population?

I saw this really cool film called DamNation on Netflix. Gave some really good insight...
panheadsully is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 07:18 AM   #17
Tcavanaugh
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Tillamook
Posts: 111
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

A lot
Tcavanaugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 07:39 AM   #18
cosmo
 
cosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,268
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by panheadsully View Post
So what kind of impact do you think the Dams had on the fish? It sounds like commercial fishing actually was the root cause of the decline in Salmon Population?

I saw this really cool film called DamNation on Netflix. Gave some really good insight...
1877 is a notable point of overfishing. Most overlook the fact that the runs came back with huge catches just before 1920 and again in the early 1940's, the 40's being after the first few of the dams had been built. It's after that time that the runs lost their elasticity. One by one, we cut off major historical spawning areas and began to thrash outgoing smolts to greater levels.

It took a full 40 years to systematically destroy the salmon runs.
cosmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 08:18 AM   #19
RiverJohn
King Salmon
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: W.L.
Posts: 8,376
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

13,922,047
RiverJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 08:43 AM   #20
CptnMorgan
King Salmon
 
CptnMorgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Salem
Posts: 11,456
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

0 no fish counters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
My tongue is not a platform for your lies.
CptnMorgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 10:14 AM   #21
Farfish
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,330
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow View Post
"In 1866 the first salmon cannery on the Columbia River, the Hapgood, Hume and Company, opened for business. Canned salmon quickly became a cheap food source for the working class. By 1883, over 50 such canneries operated in the Columbia River Basin"

"Cannery operators believed the salmon supply to be endless, and as a consequence, the salmon industry quickly grew wasteful. Not only were large portions of the fish discarded, but also many complete species of fish were discarded, as the fishermen caught more fish than the canneries could process. During the spring and summer seasons, often the canneries processed only Chinook salmon. Canneries dumped other species back into the rivers. In 1895 it was estimated that 7 million pounds of fish were discarded. By the 1890s the fish population was declining"

Dams weren't built until the 30's.

Source: http://content.lib.washington.edu/salmonweb/
Its worth noting that large commercial fisheries were not the only thing going on in the 1800's. In 1860 there was a large gold rush along the Clearwater River in Idaho that resulted in large scale habitat damage from placer mining. There were other gold rushes in eastern Oregon. There was also extensive logging and agricultural development that also damaged salmon habitat.
You are not correct about dams not being built until the 30s. Here is a list of 60 Columbia Basin dams that were built before Bonneville.
Wannawish Dam 1892
Lake Chelan Dam 1892
Swan Falls Dam 1901
Barber Dam 1904
Prosser Dam 1904
Milner Dam 1905
Shoshone Falls Dam 1907
Upper Bonnington Falls Dam 1907
Sunnyside Dam 1907
Boise River Diversion Dam 1908
Mormon Dam (McKinney Creek) 1908
Bull Run Dam (Sandy) 1908
Minidoka Dam 1909
Tumwater Canyon Dam 1909
Lower Salmon Falls Dam 1910
Magic Dam 1910
Bumping Lake Dam 1910
Jackson Lake Dam 1911
Blackfoot Dam 1911
Salmon Falls Dam 1911
Walterville Dam 1911
Condit Dam 1911
Portneuf Dam 1912
Little Camas Dam (Little Camas Creek) 1912
Crane Creek Dam (Crane Creek) 1912
Kachess Dam 1912
Ashton Dam 1913
Marmot Dam (Sandy) 1913
Arrowrock Dam 1915
Thompson Falls Dam 1915
Clear Lake Dam(North Fork Tieton) 1915
Oakley Dam 1916
Keechelus Dam 1917
Warm Springs Dam 1919
Cedar Creek Dam (Cedar Creek) 1920
Antelope Reservoir Dam (Antelope Creek (Jordan Creek)) 1923
Henrys Lake Dam 1923
Fish Creek Dam (Fish Creek) 1923
McKay Dam 1923
Goose Lake Dam (Goose Creek) 1924
Black Canyon Diversion Dam 1924
Lower Bonnington Falls Dam 1925
Tieton Dam 1925
Little Payette Lake Dam (Lake Fork) 1926
American Falls Dam 1927
Lewiston Dam 1927
South Slocan Dam 1928
Lost Valley Dam (Lost Creek(West Fork Weiser River)) 1929
Easton Diversion Dam 1929
Leaburg Dam 1929
Harper Diversion Dam 1930
Wallowa Lake Dam 1931
Deadwood Dam(Deadwood River) 1931
Merwin Dam 1931
Owyhee Dam 1932
Thief Valley Dam 1932
Corra Linn Dam 1932
Cle Elum Dam 1933
Twin Falls Dam 1935
Agency Valley Dam(North Fork Malheur River) 1935
Farfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 11:01 AM   #22
RWTIII
Tuna!
 
RWTIII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rainier, OR
Posts: 1,368
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

1775 - Bruno de Heceta, aboard the Santiago, sights the Columbia River, Naming it Rio Dan Roque. Estimated historic Columbia River Salmon Runs fluctuate between 11 million and 16 million fish, of which Native North Americans may have captured 4.5 to 6.3 million.
Copied from,
CHRONOLOGY OF SALMON DECLINE IN THE COLUMBIA RIVER 1779 TO THE PRESENT, Based on the historical record

By Bill M. Bakke, Director, Native Fish Society
__________________
I FISH THEREFORE I SUPPORT CCA
RWTIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 11:18 AM   #23
Swifty27
Ifish Nate
 
Swifty27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Posts: 3,427
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfish View Post
You are not correct about dams not being built until the 30s. Here is a list of 60 Columbia Basin dams that were built before Bonneville.

I didn't realize the Yakima River dams were that old. Roza is the only one making power I believe. The rest are reservoirs or irrigation diversion. It would be nice to see some of that spawning habitat and cold water freed up someday. I hope the Sockeye reintroduction gains some ground.

Wannawish Dam (Horn Rapids) 1892
Prosser Dam 1904
Sunnyside Dam 1907
Bumping Lake Dam 1910
Kachess Dam 1912
Clear Lake Dam 1915
Keechelus Dam 1917
Tieton Dam 1925
Easton Diversion Dam 1929
Cle Elum Dam 1933
Roza Diversion Dam 1939
__________________
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true." - Robert Wilensky, speech at a 1996 conference
Swifty27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 11:53 AM   #24
War-Paint
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Pa’kiut’lĕma
Posts: 388
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

All I know is the counts from the Yakima water shed ALONE would be enough to make most people here want to cry...Spring salmon numbers ALONE were in the millions...which also happens to be the most irrigated river shed in the united states.

Last edited by War-Paint; 05-10-2016 at 12:04 PM.
War-Paint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 11:59 AM   #25
Audball
Tuna!
 
Audball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 165 miles NE of God's Country
Posts: 1,128
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Pre-Bonneville estimates were somewhere around 16-20 million salmon and 38 sea lions....
Seems nowadays those numbers have been somewhat reversed....

__________________
Drive fast, take chances.

Last edited by Audball; 05-10-2016 at 12:09 PM.
Audball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 12:10 PM   #26
100% Siwash has a birthday 100% Siwash
Ifish Nate
 
100% Siwash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,474
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifty27 View Post
I didn't realize the Yakima River dams were that old. Roza is the only one making power I believe. The rest are reservoirs or irrigation diversion. It would be nice to see some of that spawning habitat and cold water freed up someday. I hope the Sockeye reintroduction gains some ground.

Wannawish Dam (Horn Rapids) 1892
Prosser Dam 1904
Sunnyside Dam 1907
Bumping Lake Dam 1910
Kachess Dam 1912
Clear Lake Dam 1915
Keechelus Dam 1917
Tieton Dam 1925
Easton Diversion Dam 1929
Cle Elum Dam 1933
Roza Diversion Dam 1939
Prosser is a Natural falls, used to be the hub for Natives to fish for Salmon and trade salmon TapTap was the name. Then settlers came, and a flour mill and the rest is history.
100% Siwash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 12:24 PM   #27
Threeweight
Ifish Nate
 
Threeweight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Columbia County
Posts: 2,492
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

For what it's worth... total estimated recreational and commercial harvest data over time... not a great proxy for overall abundance, but I think it does help chart the collapse of the runs post hydro-power development in the 20's, 30's, and 40's.


Last edited by Threeweight; 05-10-2016 at 12:25 PM.
Threeweight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 01:02 PM   #28
Swifty27
Ifish Nate
 
Swifty27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
Posts: 3,427
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100% Siwash View Post
Prosser is a Natural falls, used to be the hub for Natives to fish for Salmon and trade salmon TapTap was the name. Then settlers came, and a flour mill and the rest is history.
Cool bit of history. Thanks for sharing. Googling it turned up an interesting document from the 30's.
https://books.google.com/books?id=07...page&q&f=false

__________________
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true." - Robert Wilensky, speech at a 1996 conference

Last edited by Swifty27; 05-10-2016 at 01:09 PM.
Swifty27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 01:30 PM   #29
adrenaline
King Salmon
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,259
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

The method they used to count them before dams was simple, when driving across the backs of Salmon, they took a picture, counted how many per square yard, & multiplied it by the total square surface yards of the river. seriously tho, "think" is exactly right, as there was no real way to count them back than, no doubt there was way more Salmon than there is now, way more sport fishermen, way more logging, way more roads built along rivers, way more cattle ranching, way more homes along rivers, way more farms pumping water out...
__________________
Ken 21' NR(Maxxum) "Adrenaline"
"We fail to see, how destructive we can be, taking without giving back, til the damage can be seen...can you see? The price we pay to play the game~ Aaron Lewis.
adrenaline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2016, 02:00 PM   #30
Hagar
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 1,050
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

There is certainly more than one type of commercial fishery that has impacted our runs (in-river, offshore and international). We are now intercepting the runs well before they reach our local rivers.

Hydro/irrigation has been a factor.

Also, I believe the ocean productivity has decreased significantly.
Hagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 03:26 PM   #31
hawg boss
Ifish Nate
 
hawg boss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 2,046
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfish View Post
Its worth noting that large commercial fisheries were not the only thing going on in the 1800's. In 1860 there was a large gold rush along the Clearwater River in Idaho that resulted in large scale habitat damage from placer mining. There were other gold rushes in eastern Oregon. There was also extensive logging and agricultural development that also damaged salmon habitat.
You are not correct about dams not being built until the 30s. Here is a list of 60 Columbia Basin dams that were built before Bonneville.
Wannawish Dam 1892
Lake Chelan Dam 1892
Swan Falls Dam 1901
Barber Dam 1904
Prosser Dam 1904
Milner Dam 1905
Shoshone Falls Dam 1907
Upper Bonnington Falls Dam 1907
Sunnyside Dam 1907
Boise River Diversion Dam 1908
Mormon Dam (McKinney Creek) 1908
Bull Run Dam (Sandy) 1908
Minidoka Dam 1909
Tumwater Canyon Dam 1909
Lower Salmon Falls Dam 1910
Magic Dam 1910
Bumping Lake Dam 1910
Jackson Lake Dam 1911
Blackfoot Dam 1911
Salmon Falls Dam 1911
Walterville Dam 1911
Condit Dam 1911
Portneuf Dam 1912
Little Camas Dam (Little Camas Creek) 1912
Crane Creek Dam (Crane Creek) 1912
Kachess Dam 1912
Ashton Dam 1913
Marmot Dam (Sandy) 1913
Arrowrock Dam 1915
Thompson Falls Dam 1915
Clear Lake Dam(North Fork Tieton) 1915
Oakley Dam 1916
Keechelus Dam 1917
Warm Springs Dam 1919
Cedar Creek Dam (Cedar Creek) 1920
Antelope Reservoir Dam (Antelope Creek (Jordan Creek)) 1923
Henrys Lake Dam 1923
Fish Creek Dam (Fish Creek) 1923
McKay Dam 1923
Goose Lake Dam (Goose Creek) 1924
Black Canyon Diversion Dam 1924
Lower Bonnington Falls Dam 1925
Tieton Dam 1925
Little Payette Lake Dam (Lake Fork) 1926
American Falls Dam 1927
Lewiston Dam 1927
South Slocan Dam 1928
Lost Valley Dam (Lost Creek(West Fork Weiser River)) 1929
Easton Diversion Dam 1929
Leaburg Dam 1929
Harper Diversion Dam 1930
Wallowa Lake Dam 1931
Deadwood Dam(Deadwood River) 1931
Merwin Dam 1931
Owyhee Dam 1932
Thief Valley Dam 1932
Corra Linn Dam 1932
Cle Elum Dam 1933
Twin Falls Dam 1935
Agency Valley Dam(North Fork Malheur River) 1935
Thanks, most seem to focus on the mainstem dams and forget about the rest.

You missed some though. Wallowa lake dam in 1918 destroyed the Sockeye run, Suttle lake dam in 1930 did the same, and Sunbeam dam on the Salmon river in 1910 also wiped out the Sockeye run.

I am sure there are many others, but entire Sockeye populations were destroyed by dams on the Payette, Salmon, Deschutes, Yakima and Grande Ronde rivers before Bonneville dam was even built!
hawg boss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 07:02 PM   #32
fishingls
Piscatologist
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Where Snake meets Columbia
Posts: 2,684
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfish View Post
Its worth noting that large commercial fisheries were not the only thing going on in the 1800's. In 1860 there was a large gold rush along the Clearwater River in Idaho that resulted in large scale habitat damage from placer mining. There were other gold rushes in eastern Oregon. There was also extensive logging and agricultural development that also damaged salmon habitat.
You are not correct about dams not being built until the 30s. Here is a list of 60 Columbia Basin dams that were built before Bonneville.
Wannawish Dam 1892
Lake Chelan Dam 1892
Swan Falls Dam 1901
Barber Dam 1904
Prosser Dam 1904
Milner Dam 1905
Shoshone Falls Dam 1907
Upper Bonnington Falls Dam 1907
Sunnyside Dam 1907
Boise River Diversion Dam 1908
Mormon Dam (McKinney Creek) 1908
Bull Run Dam (Sandy) 1908
Minidoka Dam 1909
Tumwater Canyon Dam 1909
Lower Salmon Falls Dam 1910
Magic Dam 1910
Bumping Lake Dam 1910
Jackson Lake Dam 1911
Blackfoot Dam 1911
Salmon Falls Dam 1911
Walterville Dam 1911
Condit Dam 1911
Portneuf Dam 1912
Little Camas Dam (Little Camas Creek) 1912
Crane Creek Dam (Crane Creek) 1912
Kachess Dam 1912
Ashton Dam 1913
Marmot Dam (Sandy) 1913
Arrowrock Dam 1915
Thompson Falls Dam 1915
Clear Lake Dam(North Fork Tieton) 1915
Oakley Dam 1916
Keechelus Dam 1917
Warm Springs Dam 1919
Cedar Creek Dam (Cedar Creek) 1920
Antelope Reservoir Dam (Antelope Creek (Jordan Creek)) 1923
Henrys Lake Dam 1923
Fish Creek Dam (Fish Creek) 1923
McKay Dam 1923
Goose Lake Dam (Goose Creek) 1924
Black Canyon Diversion Dam 1924
Lower Bonnington Falls Dam 1925
Tieton Dam 1925
Little Payette Lake Dam (Lake Fork) 1926
American Falls Dam 1927
Lewiston Dam 1927
South Slocan Dam 1928
Lost Valley Dam (Lost Creek(West Fork Weiser River)) 1929
Easton Diversion Dam 1929
Leaburg Dam 1929
Harper Diversion Dam 1930
Wallowa Lake Dam 1931
Deadwood Dam(Deadwood River) 1931
Merwin Dam 1931
Owyhee Dam 1932
Thief Valley Dam 1932
Corra Linn Dam 1932
Cle Elum Dam 1933
Twin Falls Dam 1935
Agency Valley Dam(North Fork Malheur River) 1935
A number of the listed dams in the Snake River system are above Twin Falls. It is well documented that there were no salmon runs above Twin Falls.
__________________
Work is for people who don't know how to fish.
fishingls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 07:35 PM   #33
fishingls
Piscatologist
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Where Snake meets Columbia
Posts: 2,684
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Before 1830, I feel the runs entering the CR was between 50 million and 120 million.

Extrapolating anthropologist estimates for Salmon harvest at Kettle Falls and being very generous with a 10% catch rate of the salmon going over Kettle Falls, the fish runs would have had to be 4million plus going over Kettle Falls. I am comfortable arguing that less than 5% of the salmon entering the CR made it over Kettle Falls. Using those estimates, there would have been 50 million plus salmon entering the Columbia river.

If we look at the population size of the pre 1830 Native communities on the CR and tribs, if we extrapolate food requirements, if we use a very generous 10% catch rate.... then I could argue a salmon run entering the Columbia that could have been over 100 million prior to 1830.

We had tribal communities that were in the thousands of individuals prior to 1830. It took immense amounts of salmon to feed these communities. After 1830, when the white man diseases showed up, the death rate from small pox and other diseases in these communities was 70%.
__________________
Work is for people who don't know how to fish.
fishingls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 08:39 PM   #34
Hockinson man
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,534
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeFISH View Post
150 years later.... we're still dealing with the so-called "Salmon Crisis" and yet commercial overfishing continues on without adequate oversight.
Couldn't of said it better:

Sometimes I think the public understands job creation, economy, habitat enhancement, family values, and all the stuff recreation brings than I see the commercials back in the river when the numbers are low? Nets in a river doesn't make sense. It's 2016 I won't even address what the Indians do.
Hockinson man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 09:03 PM   #35
codeman
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: st. helens
Posts: 1,345
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Pretty crappy. Zero bass, blue gill , crappie, walleye, perch, cats, etc. All there was were ocean run fish to catch, resident trout,and s quawfish. Very little variety. How boring.
codeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2016, 09:57 PM   #36
treblehooked
Steelhead
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Sunny Side
Posts: 136
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifty27 View Post
Cool bit of history. Thanks for sharing. Googling it turned up an interesting document from the 30's.
https://books.google.com/books?id=07...page&q&f=false
Thanks swifty for sharing that picture, haven't seen it in a long time.
I am pretty sure that mill (or parts of it) burnt down in the 60's because we lived 3 blocks from it and it was the talk of the town for days. I also remember sitting down every evening watching the fish jump up and over that dam. We also watched with excitement when the Native Americans would bring up a fish in their nets. I do remember one fish snapping their pole in half. That was comical.
treblehooked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 08:34 AM   #37
Farfish
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,330
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishingls View Post
A number of the listed dams in the Snake River system are above Twin Falls. It is well documented that there were no salmon runs above Twin Falls.
I thought about that, but left them on the list as even dams upstream of areas accessible to salmon can impact water quantity and quality downstream where the salmon are. Those dams upstream of Twin Falls were mostly for agriculture. They likely removed enough water to have some negative impact on salmon downstream even from the beginning of their operation. I think it was about 8-10 dams on that list. The point is that many people have put forth arguments that dams weren't really a factor for fish until the big mainstem dams were built. But people were building dams in tributaries where fish spawn and rear long before the big mainstem dams.
Farfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 02:56 PM   #38
CptnMorgan
King Salmon
 
CptnMorgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Salem
Posts: 11,456
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Did the natives use sticks or beads when counting the fish crossing Ceilo?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
My tongue is not a platform for your lies.
CptnMorgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 04:57 PM   #39
CRD4Liberty
Tuna!
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Milwaukie, OR
Posts: 1,320
Default Re: What do you think the counts were back when there was no dam's?

Then there were the lumber companies who used the rivers to transport their logs to market, building dams to wash the logs down after release, which tore up the river bottoms, wiped out redds and washed smolts downstream away from their food sources.
Like everything else you can never run out of fish, trees, any resources until it's gone.

Last edited by CRD4Liberty; 05-15-2016 at 05:03 PM.
CRD4Liberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Cast to



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:19 PM.

Terms of Service
 
Page generated in 0.46366 seconds with 60 queries