Lab Retrieving Problems

[wade]

I've really enjoyed reading the threads about lab training, and it has made me want to consider working with my yellow lab again.
I have a 3 year old dog. I bought him at 7 weeks and faithfully followed Wolters' methods in his book "Game Dog." Whereas my dog's dam was a good duck and upland bird dog, his sire was a show dog, so I doubt the breeding is up to par with what some of youze have. Anyway, this is a smart dog and everything went perfectly from day 1, until I began demanding that he fetch and retrieve a dummy. I tried everything, scenting, being playful, he lost interest in the dummy, completely. I gave up at about 4 months I think. To this day he remembers all of his commands, and will fetch once or twice when he's in the mood, but that's it. I suspect that I pushed him too early, or he doesn't have the breeding, or a combo. But does anybody have some suggestions for getting him to love the dummy? I think if he loved it that would be all I need. I don't really hunt but love being out and working with him and would take up bird hunting in a heartbeat.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Chromaflage]

There's really no such thing as starting to instill the retrieving instinct too early. IMHO that is one of the most important first steps.

Have you tried a bird - like a small, frozen duck? Not to be discouraging, but once in awhile you'll run accross a lab that does not have a desire to do what it's bred for. I have a yellow, she was my first lab (actually lab/golden mix). When I got her I though - yeehaw - we're gonna get birds. Well, when she was a pup, I tried to train her to chase and retrieve....no success. I even tied a frozen bird on a string and ran around the yard dragging it behind me. She had absolutely no interest. All she wanted to do was run in front of me. Absolute dud - so, she became my son's 4-h dog, family pet and consumer. She doesn't even like to swim. :depressed: It happens. I think Wolters even talks about it.

I do have an 8 month old started lab that is a retrieving fool that I'm trying to sell - if you're interested.

Good Luck!

ORS

ORS

[ 12-18-2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[Flatfish]

Take pup out with 3 or 4 other energetic fetchers. Let pup watch how wonderful fetching is. Other dogs are much better at getting the point across than you are. Pup should take to it.

Mark and the dog.

[crabbait]

Some good advice here. Breeding is a major factor, however. If it ain't in there, it ain't in there. Mine was retrieving everything in sight at 7 weeks.

Message to others: If you really want a Corvette don't buy a Chevette and try to build it from there.

[Chromaflage]

Originally posted by crabbait:
Message to others: If you really want a Corvette don't buy a Chevette and try to build it from there.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yup!

[Chukrchaser]

Even when buying a corvette you can get a lemon. Bought a chocolate pup by Super Chief years ago -- 8 Field titles in 3 generations on the pedigree -- She hated water and just could not understand what the "fetch" thing was all about!! :whazzup: Even genetics can have black holes.

[wade]

Thanks for the replies. ORS, I've tried a freshly killed quail and that worked pretty good, good for a few throws. He has an excellent sense of smell and will pick up and kinda gnaw on anything that might resemble a form of life. I have a duck in the freezer waiting to be turned into a flytying skin, I'll try fetch with it. Flatfish, I have had another suggestion to mingle him with another fetcher but I don't know any.

Kevin

[Chromaflage]

Originally posted by wade:
Flatfish, I have had another suggestion to mingle him with another fetcher but I don't know any.

Kevin

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I've got three :grin: A bit of a drive. I'm down that way (assuming Eugene) periodically. Maybe I'll let you nkow when I'm heading to that area and I'll put a dog in the truck. But I'm sure there are folks on here that are in your area with good trievers.

ORS

[Lured In]

I agree that genetics are important, but...

...a little old lady behind the wheel of the corvette ain't gonna drive any faster than if she were in her Lincoln Continental. :tongue:

I have gained a tremendous amount of respect for professional trainers over the last year and a half. After running into several minor issues with my pup, I decided that "I" needed help. I personally believe that most labs with solid (not outstanding) pedigrees can be trained to be meat dogs. But that is dependent on the trainer.

If you are new to training, solicit the help of a pro. You might be suprised at what progress can be made, assuming its not too late and the dog has the drive to learn.

One of the key things that I learned was not only what to train, but how to train and when to discipline. The trainer helped me to understand what needed to be taught, showed me and the pup, and then we practiced at home. (We spent an hour with the trainer twice a week). Looking forward to this spring and summer's hunt test, we will be going back to formal training again after duck season.

Just my .02. Start early and stay with it.

[James in Idaho]

Two words: "Force Fetch"

Why is retrieving an "option"? It is a command. If you don't know how to force fetch (or the PC "conditioned retrieve"), find a pro who will. I would not even bother to feed a dog that's not force fetched. That's the black hole in following Wolters. If you want to try it yourself, someone who has done it before is a big help, but Tom Quinn's book "Training the Working Retriever", the Tri-Tronics retriever book, or the Kolher obediance book all cover it. I really like the steps the Tri-Tronics book covers, and you can use their instructions even if you don't plan on using a e-collar.

I'd be willing to bet that dang close to 100% of the FC/AFC retrievers out there are force fetched, and you won't find much higher retrieving drive than that crowd.

[id. painter]

Ive trained Britts all my life and the retrieve is not as strong in these dods as the point is.
For me to get my pups to fetch has been a real challange,, Except for one Belle. Belle was an out standing retriever from day one but would never play fetch. I could get her to bring a stuffed animal (kid toy ) about once and that was it . She was to smart to play that dumb game . She wanted birds. It didnt matter what kind of bird or animal it was that you shot she would gladly fetch it right back.
The pup I have now is proving more difficult.
Last week I had her out Goose hunting and she fetched a couple birds very nicly.
I was pleased and thought Id try to reinforce the behavior. So I took a goose wing and started tossing it for her. She (Morgan) brought it back several times befor the last hunt .I thought it was working. So monday morning I get up and get Morgan excited to go fetch the wing. I toss it out the back door or our home and morgan runs out to it smells it and walks away. It was early and cold ,,, I didnt want her to sense my displeasure about the non retrieve so I walked out picked up the wing and walked back in the house and left Morgan out to feel the non-reward, for not fetching ,,, not punishment, just ignore her.
Well ,, It was cold enough that she took it as punishment .. I let her in a little while later maybe 20 minutes....
The next time I go to toss the goose wing she runs and hides. She didnt even dare fallow the wing past the door. Dang!
She was so scared of the wing I had to start all over again. With a stuffed bunny. Little by little I been inserting goose feathers into the bunny's shirt then moved up to usings duckt tape to attach an entire wing to the bunny.It seems to be working. I also started to control her food intake so I can make sure she is more willing to think about what I have to teach.

Now I hope my next goose wont need a yellow bunny with a blue shirt hooked to it for her to trust it ... Hi Ho. id. painter

[id. painter]

I have always been told to force fetch them . But I have never been able to make it work . I end up making the dog feel like it is in trouble and the instant they sense that I loose the battle.
I must doing something wrong ,, but my female Britts are very sensitive and dont have a very thick skin when it comes to punishment.It is easy to break the spirit if you are not careful. id. painter

[billc_sbio]

Yep, James has got it!

FORCE FETCH to retrieve!

It ends up having NOTHING to do with birds! At least not initially...

When you first start it has everything to do with HOLDING (and keeping) something in his mouth!

Lots of hunters/amateur trainers have a real problem with this, but it's NOT that difficult to do.

It's a process where by you should be able to have your dog fetching on command within about 1 month. One of the secrets is a couple of short sessions a day, and not particulary any long sessions...about 10 minutes 1-3 times a day instills a really stong idea in your dog's head as to what's expected.

FYI the 1st week is the "painful" time where things seem to be both hard on someone who's new to this procedure as well as the dog.

After that, it gets easier and more fun as the dog is trained to reach down and pick an object up, then travel a distance and do the same thing.

Once you've force broken 2-3 dogs to retrieve, it gets pretty easy on the trainer (as they can "read" how the dog's progressing...need some knowledge there), though that early period is always "tough" on the dog...some more than others.

Check out some books or vids on this aspect of dog training. Generally retrievers are a lot "tougher" and easier to train than some of the "softer" dogs like Brits and Setters.

[James in Idaho]

id painter:

Never forced a brit, but if you want help, send me a pm. I'm around all the time, and it really only takes 10 or 15 mins a day for a couple of weeks for the initial force stuff. If all you want is a reliable retrieve, that's really pretty easy.

[Chromaflage]

So, any input regarding when it's too late to FF a dog? What if the dog already understands that when told to fetch, there's no option?

ORS

[id. painter]

James ,, Thank you for the offer .. Yes I would like some help .. Right now Morgan is 3. I missed the first year because of my spine injury . I think I can make it work, If I get on it now and keep with it.
Morgan knows exactly what I want when I say "bring it here" she just needs some convincing that she has to do it . id. painter

[James in Idaho]

ID Painter:

email me at martjame@isu.edu

We'll set something up, you will need a table with your back. A workbench will be fine.

[Beaver93]

Originally posted by crabbait:
Message to others: If you really want a Corvette don't buy a Chevette and try to build it from there.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yeah, but what if you wanted a Chevette, and then decided something a little sportier would be more your style?

Training Author, Karen Pryor, taught her gold fish to swim through a hoop, you can teach your dog to retrieve, and do it enthusiatically. Go buy "Don't Shoot the Dog" and learn everything you can about operant conditioning.

Corey

[id. painter]

James,,, I did email , and got the message undeliverable response. email me first and then I can reply... Thanks again. id. painter

[wade]

You guys are throwing out a bunch of info, thanks. I probably don't have far to go with this dog. I haven't worked with him for a couple of years, but he still comes, sits, drops, holds something in his mouth. All of this instantly if within earshot. I don't even know where my whistle is anymore, but he'd probably remember those commands as well (come, sit). Regarding force fetching, I need to read up on that. I probably did a version of that when I taught him to hold an object in his mouth. Its kinda hilarious, you know he wants to spit it out and as soon as I say "drop" it hits the floor before the word is done, it seems.
Hey, what happens if you want a Corvette, but get a Chevette and put granny behind the wheel?
ORS, Yes, I'm in Eugene. That's a generous offer about bringing your dog down. If you considered it an adventure and not a hassle I wouldn't refuse it.


Kevin

[ 12-19-2003, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: wade ]

[wade]

I got out to the field with my dog today, for the first time in at least a year. I was pleased with what he rememembered-everything. I reviewed the stuff he knows well which he enjoys, and limited the force-fetching to &lt; 10 minutes. He did the forcing part with no physical resistance, its just the energy and enthusiasm wasn't there. I tried rewarding him with tidbits which I've never had a need to do before, it didn't perk him up any. I'm not sure why, he's always ready for anything edible. I'm going to take him out back a few times a day for a couple weeks and see how much more I can get out of him.

Kevin

[STGRule]

Just a thought. Could he have a bad tooth (maybe cracked) or something else that makes it painful to open wide or bite down on something? Not even for treats seems odd.

[wade]

STG rule,
I'll check his teeth. I kinda doubt that's it though, he chomps his own nylabones a lot, like normal. He does like the treats but they don't motivate him like you'd think. Maybe since I've never trained him that way he doesn't expect it? I don't know, I'll check the mouth.

Kevin

[Steelin Steel]

I have a question on the word Force Fetch. What does that mean, and what kind of procedures do you have to do. Any information would be great.
ltf

[wade]

ltf,
I hope a trainer answers your question, I'd like to hear it from the horses' mouth as I haven't made it to the bookstore yet. The way I've been doing it is, I throw the dummy and encourage the dog to go get it. He starts after it but walks away from it after he sniffs or nudges it. So I gently lead him to it by the collar and kinda push is nose towards it, pick it up, and put it in his mouth. After its in his mouth I say "hold", then run back to where I was when I tossed the dummy, while saying "fetch." If he doesn't come I say "come," which he does. Then he sits in front of me and waits for me to bend down, grasp the dummy, and wait for me to say "drop." This is when I give him the treat. The first throw he does everything perfectly, but with each successive throw he gets less interested in the procedure. Its like he gets tired and I know he's too fat, but he did the same thing when he was a pup. I wasn't persistent with the forcing then though, I'm going to follow through with it this go-around. I hope someone with experience on this will critique my attempts.

Thanks,
Kevin

[wade]

After sitting back and seeing my procedure in writing it made me realize, maybe I should concentrate on the shortcoming, which is picking up the dummy. I'm going to try breaking the excercise down into a shorter one, and end it when he picks it up. That's when I'll give him the treat, when he picks up the dummy. Yes! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]
Kevin

[suckerfish]

Force Fetch, When a dog is conditioned with force to retrieve on command. Usually, a negative stimuli(ear pinch/toe hitch)is used to achieve the desired responce. This can be a daunting task to the neophyte. The entire process is comprised of many small steps.

suckerfish

[billc_sbio]

I don't know which technique most "Pro" trainers use the most, but I've always used the ear pinch method myself. Have done this on about 5 dogs of my own and probably 3-4 for friends.

I know how to do the toe pinch, but since that takes extra materials (a length of cord, making the half-hitch, and then probably a training table), I found the ear pinch to be the most convenient.

Briefly what it is is that (in my case) I heel my dogs on my left side, so I let my left thumbnail grow fairly long. Then at the beginning of all of this I have a short "buck" which is a large hardwood "dowel" (a 1 foot section of Shovel Handle works perfectly), that's hard enough to prevent the dog from biting down hard on.

The Dog's ear is folded back over onto their collar and is held there with the thumb. The buck is held out in front of the dog's face and the dog is commanded to "Fetch". Unless the dog has some reason to know what that means and take the buck in its mouth, nothing happens.

At this point the thumbnail is pressed pretty firmly, enough for it to really hurt, into the ear, about 2/3rds of the way up, fairly close to the dog's head. This pain causes the dog to open its mouth to yelp. At that point, the buck is put in the dog's mouth with your other (free) hand and gently held there. At the same instance the buck goes into the dog's mouth, the thumbnail pressure to the ear is eased.

Usually, after taking the free hand off the buck, the dog will spit it out or drop it. At this point the buck is picked back up and the process repeated.

This only needs to be done about 3 times in the first few sessions. After about 2 sessions, there will end up being a mark on the dog's ear where the pinch was made. You use the same spot, which becomes extra tender, but that's used to your advantage.

By about the 3rd session I switch over to when/if the dog spits out or drops the buck, the pain goes back on...the buck's quickly picked up and put back in the dog's mouth. When that pain hits them again, they almost beg to have the object in their mouth so the pain will go away. By about the 4th session the dog won't spit it out (typically).

Now that's the "negative" aspect. I also inject positive by gently petting, rubbing the dogs head or back and telling it it's being a good dog. Showing that I'm pleased. With 2-3 brief sessions a day, by about the 4th day no pinching actually takes place. But the ear still gets folded back over the collar and the thumb placed on the ear. This is just a "reminder".

Once the dog takes and HOLDS the buck firmly in its mouth, at the command "Fetch", I start moving my hand further away from its mouth. I make them reach out and take the buck.

Often, the dog, especially during the pinching stage, will quiver and shake. They ARE under a lot of pressure here! Some pointing dogs, especially Setters are pretty "tender" and you have to take this maybe a little slower. Retrievers seem to just take it and shrug it off pretty much.

Eventually I get the dog reaching out, even having to take a step or two forward to fetch the buck out of my hand.

Then, with retrievers, that I'm teaching this to from the sitting position, I'll start moving my hand down towards the ground. Once they'll reach down and take it from my hand near the ground, I switch over to a buck that's held up off the ground by a pair of smaller dowels that have been pressed and glued into the ends of this "ground buck" by having an "X" on each end, which holds it up off the ground and makes it easy for the dog to pick it up in their mouth.

Maybe on the first session that I have them fetch the buck up off the ground, I'll have them take it from my hand down near the ground a couple of times first. Then I'll set the buck on the ground, right at their feet and command them to fetch. Once they willingly pick up the buck at their feet, moving 3-4 feet out is accomplished and this is WITHOUT my hand being on their ear and collar...they're "on their own".

This whole process is repeated and the buck is moved farther and farther from them until they have to make a 20' retrieve.

By the time the dog can go retrieve the buck from 20', 50' is nothing nor is 100'.

Along with the "Fetch" command I also train a release command also. I use "Give", but "Drop" will work fine too, whatever you want. The key thing here is to ALWAYS use the same commands for the same tasks with the dog. The dog doesn't speak English, but can recognize commands in English as long as they're the same every time!

One other thing. I when the dog is holding the buck in its mouth, I'll often tap on the edges of it. I'm not hitting it hard enough to knock it out of the dog's mouth, but hard enough to cause the dog to hold onto it firmly. You want a firm grasp, but NOT biting down! For this reason NEVER USE A SOFT OBJECT, LIKE A TRAINING DUMMY OR "BUMPER" for training Force Fetching. Using
soft objects when putting them under pressure can cause them to learn to bite down hard, which is NOT what you want!

Also I'd recommend NOT throwing sticks (and this means not letting your kids or neighbors etc. doing this either!) for you dog! If it's a retriever, and you want your dog to bring you back a stick while that wounded Mallard is swimming away, just throw sticks for it! It'll bring you back a stick!

Whew, I know this was pretty long, but it seemed like nobody was going to say "how" this was done...I think if you find a book or video that describes this, you'll find it's pretty much as I've tried to describe here.

[ 12-27-2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[billc_sbio]

Oh, and looking at what Wade said up above a few replies...

Wade-NO TREATS!

Ya want a fat dog?!!

Lots of people will disagree with me, but I'd rather use negative reinforcement as a training technique than positive reinforcement in the form of "Treats".

My positive reinforcement is complementing the dog with saying kind remarks and showing affection..."loving him/her up".

If your dog gets used to being rewarded for its actions with treats, what happens when you don't have any treats with you?!! Hmm?! [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[ 12-27-2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[wade]

Thanks billc, I really had no idea about that.
I agree about the treats, I'm going to stop it, they weren't working anyway. This dog is like none I've ever seen, it likes verbal praise but he doesn't show it, and petting doesn't do a thing for him. From the start I've used verbal praise as a release from whatever command he is under, and that is all the positive treatment he needs. I'm going to look like a weeny here but I can't see myself being mean to my poor dawgy.
:depressed: I won't rule it out though, we'll see what happens. Its pretty obvious that he knows what to do but doesn't want to do it.

Kevin

[billc_sbio]

Wade,

O.k., try doing what you see you should, it sounds like you already have a pretty good idea.

The Force Fetching to Retrieve training techniques aren't really "cruel" or "being mean" to your dog, just a short period involving some pain is all. It's a way of conveying "what you want" to the dog.

If that doesn't work, I think you have two choices after that.

The first is to take the dog to a Pro Trainer. It's going to cost some $$$, and I haven't checked lately to see what they charge, but it's not cheap...that's one.

The second is, as James Lamb Free very famous Trainer and writer of one of the best training books ever written, states, "If your dog doesn't work out GET RID OF IT. IT'S JUST AS EASY TO LOVE A GOOD ONE!"

I know that sounds pretty tough, so that's why I mentioned the 1st choice. Good luck!

[Fishful Thinkin']

Bill C you may have success with the negitive reinforcement with the right dog but your results and the finished product will be a lot better with positive reinforcement. I have seen so many dogs that have made it to the humane societies because of the so called negitive reinforcement. Dogs are like people in a since if they are always treat negitively then it impairs their happy go lucky attitude in some cases. I recommend trying positive reinforcements. Don't get me wrong there are times to use negitive but it should be in a controlled atmoshpere. Do not set your dog up so it can fail and keep the training positive. that will make it so both of you have a better time. I have spent fifteen years with these dogs training for many different reasons and it is just a lot more fun training positive instead of negitive. If you get a chance go to the sportsman show and watch the seminar there.

[wade]

Its great to hear various methods and opinions on this. I'm doing this for the fun and satisfaction that would come with owning a well-trained bird dog I trained myself, and in a way using a lot of free time I will have this Winter productively. The end result of having a bird dog isn't the motive-the motive is to train him for training's sake. If he works out it is a bonus and I'll take him hunting, but I'm not a hunter. This is a long-winded way of saying this dog is my friend, or maybe even like a son, so his position in life with me is not hinged upon how he does or doesn't train up. I'll still feed him too.

Kevin

[suckerfish]

Fishful Thinkin'
Don't get me wrong there are times to use negitive but it should be in a controlled atmoshpere.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">.


Fishful Thinkin', The "Force Fetch" process is a contolled environment. The negative reinforcment stimuli is applied and removed under controll. The entire process is done in a controlled manner. Without controll, the stimuli could not not be administered at the critical period were the dog recognises the pattern.
However, if the FF process is done incorectly, the consequences can be dire. The most important lesson in using the FF process is reading the dog. Pressure and abuse are a fine line, but two very diffrent things.

suckerfish

[Tilla]

Many people call this "collar conditioning".
The dog learns how to make the (mild) discomfort go away. You cannot accomplish much until the dog understands that there is a way to turn it off.
Then you get a correction.

Broken record: There are several Retriever clubs in Oregon made up of people who train their dogs together. All this stuff and more can be learned. People will show you how to train your pup.
AKC.org is a great way to locate these performance event retriever clubs.

[billc_sbio]

Hey Rick,

If you'd seen my last 2 Labs work, you'd be eating your words! I'd run 'em against ANY dog!

As a non-field trialer I've gotten very positive comments on both of my Labs from Pro Trainers who couldn't believe how good they were and the fact that I wasn't trialing them.

The techniques I used in training them ARE what the Pros do...works for them...works for me!

[Fishful Thinkin']

I am very familiar with force fetching your dog the table, ear pinch, collar, ect...

I think that you can force fetch and still make it a positive reinforcement training session.

With that said the stimulation that Tilla mentioned is still used but keep it in a controlled and yes even positive concept.

I take negitive to mean being abuseive somewhat in a since. I have seen some very well known trainers use way to heavy a hand for my taste. For some dogs this may work for others it will shut them right down.

A rule that I use is to be positive and keep it fun for both me and the dogs. I'm not saying once a dog knows what is expected of it beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is time for some negitive reinforcement. I'm just saying keep it fun.

Happy to hear that your dogs have turned out to be such great hunters.

[ 12-28-2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Fishful Thinkin' ]

[wade]

I will continue to post my progress so long as there is a show of interest by somebody here. I'm really having fun with this, but I can see I'm turning some of you off. At this point the folks that are helping me train my 3 year-old "pup" are helping me in my home, on this board. If it appears I'm not taking your advice its just that I have to use my own judgement and stick with something until its clear that it either is working or isn't, and I will exhaust all procedures for encouragement before inflicting pain.

Yesterday was a bummer day, my dog showed a complete "turn-off" every time it became known we were in another training session. He instantly became lethergic. So this morning I tried something different, going back to Wolters. I tried a session before his breakfast, and surprisingly he instantly turned off. I thought he'd be pumped. He usually gets breakfast first thing in the morning, before he goes outside. This time I sent him outside without food, then let him back inside to wait in "jail" while he dried off from the rain. All this time he waited for his food which was ready on the counter, and I ignored him. After nearly half an hour he was fit to be tied, so I tossed his bone with "fetch" and he couldn't pick it up and get it back to me fast enough. This time the praise came as soon as he picked up the bone, rather than waiting until he got it back to me. He did this twice in a row, then I gave him his food. No conclusions yet, other than this is the first time he's done this so happily twice in a row since I started back on this.

Kevin