65% let-off rule

Mello-Yello · 12-09-2003, 12:31 PM

For anyone interested...
Pope & Young Club, archery's equivilent to the Boone & Crocket Club, has made a recent rule change. Beginning January 1, 2004 they will begin accepting entries harvested by compound bows exceeding 65% let-off, provided, of course, they are legal in the state/province where used AND meet the remaining definitions of a hunting bow. These entries will however listed with an asterisk (*) in the record book. This change will be retroactive, which means that animals harvested in the past with bows over 65% let-off can now be submitted.

Important note: Presently, Oregon game laws require compound bows of 65% letoff or less.

Also, a traditional bow record book will be published in 2007, with subsequent editions published on a six-year cycle. These entries will also be listed in the all-time record books.

M-Y

dla · 12-09-2003, 12:46 PM

I really wish that Oregon would drop these embarrasing laws. The NW represents about 3% of the hunting equipment market in the US. So the ODFW commission, in a fit of bizzare wisdom, decided that Oregon should buck the rest of the country. <begin sarcasm>Boy that was a real flash of rocket science when they made the 65% letoff rule in Oregon<end sarcasm>

Oregon probably has the highest ratio of biologists to game mammals in the US. Yet the game commission passes goofy rules that force the Oregon sportsman away from the mainstream.

There are a host of embarassing rules (e.g. can't hunt for Cougar once you've filled your deer tag, can't hunt grouse with a .22lr, have to buy your hunting license before you can enter for a tag drawing, etc.). I really wish that the commission would consider the needs of the common man instead of cowering to the gortex-covered prima-donna hunting & fishing groups.

OK, off my soapbox now.

[ 12-09-2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: dla ]

Norm · 12-09-2003, 12:53 PM

Oregon still has the 65% let-off rule on the books. I see a lot of hunting bows being sold at the pro shops that are 75%-80%. I guess it's not a very well enforced law, I know I've never been checked. All of my bows are 65% or less anyway. How many of you guys know people who are hunting with bow over 65% let-off in Oregon? Should we change the rule, or should we leave it 65%?

Hoosier Daddy · 12-09-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dla:

Oregon probably has the highest ratio of biologists to game mammals in the US.

Huh? Any reason you think this is true?
And the biologists and the commission are two different things. The making of those rules has nothing to do with anti-hunting groups, since most of them have been on the books since well before that became a main issue.

I think most of those rules are good ones. Let-offs over 65% might as well be cross bows as far as I'm concerned. And as far as weapons restrictions, I think those are intended to keep people from having an excuse for poaching during other harvest seasons. The fact that most of us are rarely checked by OSP in the field indicates that enforcement is really stretched thin right now as it is. We probably need more rules like this, not less.

I have no problem with the 65% rule. I hunt with a bow, not a crossbow.

[ 12-09-2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Hoosier Daddy ]

dla · 12-09-2003, 01:25 PM

Hoosier Daddy: Two things:

(1) Lots of biologists and not many game mammals compared to hunting havens back east.

(2) I wasn't referring to anti groups.

TheRogue · 12-09-2003, 02:04 PM

I like the 65% rule...hate it when manufacturers change the rules. $$$$ talks.

Something I really hate is the poundage rules here in Oregon. 50lb minimum for elk.

I recently shot a new Bowtech Extreme VFT at 52lbs...I had one of my arrows I currently shoot out of my Hoyt Magnatech at 68lbs. I was within 2 feet per second!! It's a complete joke to base bow acceptability based on poundage!!

TR

6wapiti6 · 12-09-2003, 02:32 PM

Not to open up a can of worms, but how does everyone feel about mechanical broadheads? I for one think that they should be legal. The only added advantage they have is a biggger cutting diameter. I know that there are traditionalists who will disagree, and shot placement is the key to any sucseefull hunt, but something that helps bring game down quicker and cleaner should be looked at.

danger · 12-09-2003, 02:40 PM

I agree. What sort of data are they using to outlaw these heads. I know that some feel these heads will act as a barb and not allow removal by wounded animals, but that is nonsense as these heads fold back up if the arrow is pulled on and they would be much easier to remove than a head with blades 90deg to the arrow shaft.

Dan(ger)

Hoosier Daddy · 12-09-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Hoosier Daddy: Two things:

(1) Lots of biologists and not many game mammals compared to hunting havens back east.

(2) I wasn't referring to anti groups.

Gotcha on the anti thing, my bad.....

We have a lot of FISH biologists. Not that many wildlife guys though, as far as I know anyway.

Which "hunting havens" are you talking about? We don't have whitetails here, or it might be that way here too, if that's the kind of stuff you are talking about.

Fish Hawk Adventures · 12-09-2003, 02:46 PM

I feel that the game commission needs to relook at the issues around bow hunting and the rules related to it. We are all aware that now the bows have faster cams and larger let off. Look at the FPS of an arrow now in a new bow pulling 50 # and then look at the difference with the old technology. redevelopment has changed the archery world and now the regulations need to catch up.

I may open a can of worms up here but why should we not allow let off to be up to say 85%? This still would fatigue hunters who held them for a period of time, it would just give them more time and allow them to take a better shot. Which in the end would result in better kill shots.

What is you opinion?

Hoosier Daddy · 12-09-2003, 02:54 PM

Poundage: TR I see your point, but ya gotta go on something to keep 5 year olds with 10 lb Lil' Brave WalMart specials from sticking arrows in animals. That's an extreme example, but you get the idea. And a poundage mark on the bow gives the gamies something to go on.

Expanding broadheads: I think the key here may be that you have to PULL on the broadhead to remove it. A solid head might be more apt to wiggle loose. I dunno. You also have a bit of a reliability issue -- is the head going to open all the time? Solids do, everytime. There may also be a bit of a desire to not encourage people to shoot too far. Who knows. I have no desire to try them, so I guess I don't care.

Let-off: I think 65% is plenty. When I shot compound regularly, mine was 55%. The radical cam 85% letoff stuff is for folks who jack their draw weights real high in pursuit of arrow speed. That's fine, I don't want to come off as a purist here. But the real key is consistency. If you are shooting so much weight that you NEED 85%, you are shooting too heavy by far.

These are tough topics, because in general, I'm all for stuff that lets folks shoot better and more consistently. But at the same time at what point does it become more like crossbow or rifle hunting?

I dunno, but think about it hard and it gives you an idea what the rule makers have to consider in making these things.

Hoosier Daddy · 12-09-2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TALONS:
I feel that the game commission needs to relook at the issues around bow hunting and the rules related to it. We are all aware that now the bows have faster cams and larger let off. Look at the FPS of an arrow now in a new bow pulling 50 # and then look at the difference with the old technology. redevelopment has changed the archery world and now the regulations need to catch up.

another complication. There are lots of folks shooting old tech, or traditional that definitely shouldn't be pushing the envelope that way (myself for one). You could make separate rules, but then the book gets even thicker.....
Personally, I think we should have a required bow hunting course, with shooting skills, to help sort this kind of stuff out.

Lured In · 12-09-2003, 03:40 PM

While I have yet to get into bow hunting, I will likely be doing it before long. I noticed in the big game regs that there is now 'traditional' archery hunts permitting long and recurve bows only. Maybe its time to take the compound bow and all of the new technology and separate it from "traditional" archery equipment. (Like centerfire rifles and muzzleloaders.)

Create separate seasons for those who choose to use compound bows from those who use "traditional" bows. This would do two things:
1. Remove many of the limitations on compound bows and broadhead technology.
2. Reward those who choose to hunt with traditional equipment.

The likely result would be a "Modern Bow" season, occuring during less productive times or for shorter period of times. Additionally, this would provide additional opportunity for those who hunt with "traditional bows". Ideally an archer could hunt either or both seasons with the appropriate bow on the same tag.

This may not be very popular with some, but it would allow those who want to use the new technology to do so, and still provide fair opportunity for those using old school bows.

Another idea that I think has come of age is beginning a 'shotgun' season. This would be in addition to centerfire rifle and muzzleloaders.

dla · 12-09-2003, 04:03 PM

Lets not get into creating more rules - we need less rules. Letoff rules are a good example of stupid rules that we don't need. There's plenty of bowhunting opportunity right now and if you want to whittle your own bow and arrows - you can, provided you meet some minimum requirements. But this brings up another point - notice how you can hunt with a handgun now and there isn't a minimum ft/lbs of Kinetic energy? The responsibility now lies with the hunter. I wonder if we shouldn't do the same thing with bow hunting. Will some idiot parent allow their kid to hunt with a Toys-R-Us special? Probably one or two people out there that dense. Is that a big deal in the grand scheme of Oregon bowhunting? No.

Fish Hawk Adventures · 12-09-2003, 04:07 PM

Lets clarify something here first. To kill an animal effectivly in archery you need to be at least with in 60 yards on the outside, but most likely you will want to at least have the animal in the 20 to 30 yard range. This is very hard to do and it takes time, most people do not just walk up to a elk or deer and shoot it. A shortened season for a modern bowhunter would not work IMHO. First of all what advantage does the modern bow hunter have?
Still needs to get very close to the animal
Still has to have a clear shot
Still has to hold the bow until the shot is able to be taken.
Sure maybe the bows are faster now. That only gives you the benifit of deeper penitration, and allows your pins to be closer together, with the pins a little closer together it allows you to maybe be off 10 yards and you can use your 30 yard pin for a 40 yard shot and still hit the kill zone.

All of these still do not amount to enough advantages to allow a seperate shorter season IMHO

Mello-Yello · 12-09-2003, 04:27 PM

Allrighty, I opened this can of worms...now my take on things.

There is a misconception about the newer 85% let-off bows. One would think, since you're holding less weight at full draw, the thing would be easier to shoot. This is completely untrue. High letoff bows are actually more difficult to shoot with consistency. They are also harder to tune as they are so snappy. Also, it's been proven long ago that an archer is actually steadier holding approx. 20lbs. (avg. hunter) at full draw. Lowering the holding weight actually made folks waver more.

Fact is, they have already designed a 100% letoff bow. Is that next?

So, you take your 85% letoff bow, which is a bit trickier to shoot well (greater need for proper form and bow tuning), then you throw a broadhead on it. This could create some major issues for many "up-and-coming" archers, thinking they are purchasing something easier to shoot, only to find this is not true.

Personally, I'm fine with the 65% letoff rule. If they want to go to 85%, fine, whatever...but I don't see myself going in that direction. I simply see no benefit.

I've been watching this P&Y issue for a long time, and I've heard both sides. Each side has strong reasoning behind their cause. Essentially, they are both right.

The turning point was when it was shown that there is really no gained advantage in 85% letoff, the point was made "then why not allow it?"....sigh.....

Expanding broadheads...call me a purist, but where do we draw the line? They aren't necessary (if a guy spends a little time tuning his bow). Without proper maintenance, they aren't reliable. I can guarantee they are no more deadly any top-line fixed blade setup. So at what point to we stop taking the archery out of archery?

It's all marketing..."how can I buy an advantage over the next guy, or eliminate the 'homework and dedication' involved in becoming a good archer?"

I wouldn't mind seeing lucrative seasons for the traditional archer. That may be just the thing to pull me back into it. Then again, don't believe for a minute that even with all the high-tech gismos available to today's archer that taking game with bow-and-arrow is easy.

Some of us just make it look easy...

nitrobass · 12-09-2003, 05:19 PM

Interesting..

I have no objections at all to 85% letoff bows, or 65, 75, 45, whatever. The days of "jacked up" bows(80+ lbs) are gone. Those bows were around years ago but are all but nonexistant. Bow technology these days has developed bows that shoot really hard and consistent, and seldom are even available at draw weights over 70 pounds.

Mechanical broadheads, hell bring them on too. If someone thinks they can shoot better than more power to them. Its funny that they are legal most everywhere else but not here. If they were legal here maybe I'd shoot them, maybe not. I'd like to have the choice though. If it makes me more confident in my shot then I'm all for it.

What people need to remember is that its the hunter that kills the critter, not the bow. The fastest shooting compound or prettiest longbow is worthless if you walk upwind of the animal. Buying mechanical heads doesnt affect the wind direction, or make the ground quieter to walk on. If you hunt hard, make good decisions, and get within effective range of an animal, then use whatever you are most effective with to make a clean kill.

Why not outlaw scent-lock suits? Those are a far bigger advantage than any broadhead on the market. Should we parade against those?

sliverpicker · 12-09-2003, 05:29 PM

Hey Mello...I have several of those 100% let-off bows! When I pull the string back and let go, it let's off 100%! :grin:

As for the mechanical broadheads, I have a question. Why do we need them? There's a slew of good quality broadheads available already. Will the mechanical make you a better bowhunter?

If you think the ODFW isn't watching all the technological advance's in archery equipment, you're a little nieve. More technology = shorter seasons!!!

Send me back to my room [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

sliverpicker

dla · 12-09-2003, 05:34 PM

More technology = shorter seasons!!! - wrong.

More technology does not equal more harvest. More harvest might mean shorter seasons.

Gun Rod Bow · 12-09-2003, 05:46 PM

I really don't have enough background on 85% let offs to have an opinion, but thanks M Y for the info. My "feeling" (stupid word) is that it should be left alone.

Responses:

Separate seasons: NO WAY. I think the game comission did a good job of allowing a few areas where traditional archers have access that others don't without cutting the baby in half.

Mechanical Broadheads: From what I've seen, I'd allow them on deer and bear, but not elk. More accurate, less durable on bone impact. Since we hunt all three at the same time, leave them out.

Poundage Restrictions: Best they could do without carrying a Chronograph in the field. Similar to caliber restrictions for rifle. Just trying to match appropriate equipment to the animal.

dla: Man, are you in a bad mood?

One thing us Oregon bow hunters will need to face VERY soon is overcrowding. The last 10 years and even 5 years have put a lot of new bow hunters in the woods.

Anyone here old enough to remember over the counter rifle tags for deer and elk in Eastern Oregon? How about a bow tag that became a rifle tag if unfilled?

The constant theme I've been hearing and seeing is overcrowding. I love to be able to hunt the coast one week and east the next. Deer and bear and elk all together for 5-6 weeks. Then more chances later.

We've got it better than any other western state for opportunity.

Thanks ODFW

dla · 12-09-2003, 06:18 PM

Gun Rod Bow: No, I'm not in a bad mood at all. I'm just correcting some misperceptions. For example, do Oregonians really have the best opportunity of the Western states?

I'm in a good mood, really I am :grin:

Gun Rod Bow · 12-09-2003, 06:24 PM

I said we've "got it better"

Meaning specifically, length of season, availability of tags, tons of public ground, access to tons of private ground.

We may not be known for a lot of trophy heads, but try Colorado for locked gates some time, try drawing a tag in AZ if you live in AZ.

This is a great state for access and numbers of animals. Most hunters that I know, that take it serious can have some kind of meat in the freezer every year. That is a very rare thing that we will miss someday my friend. We should appreciate and protect that.

I'm glad your in a good mood

nitrobass · 12-09-2003, 06:28 PM

All this talk of bowhunting has me in the mood to get out there and chase them around!

Lets see...only like 9 months and change to go?

Gun Rod Bow · 12-09-2003, 06:40 PM

Check you calendar Nitro.

Try 5 months. April 15th turkey on a stick

Mello-Yello · 12-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Woohooo, this one's gonna get heated.

Better technology absolutely improves harvest. How can anyone seriously suggest otherwise? :shocked:

The greatest technology we've seen in archery in the past decade has been in the bows themselves. There isn't much one can do to make a bow shoot more accurate. It's a machine, and if shot identically each time, will repeat itself shot after shot. The greatest variable is the shooter. Therefore, the capability of shooting identically becomes the key. The compound bow of today is designed for foregiveness. This forgiveness compensates for variables in form, release, etc., mostly through minimized nock travel, but also through increased brace height, parallel limb designs, improved centershot (vertical), improved materials, etc, etc. With the older bows, you could get the windage lined up perfect by adjusting your arrow rest from left to right. You could play with tiller adjustments and arrow-rest height to try and smooth out nock travel, but compared to todays bows, it's a night and day difference. Solo cams prevent the cam-timing and synchronization problems we had with dual-cam bows, not that a person can't setup a dual-cam to shoot darts, but the solo-cam will pretty much do this right out of the box. The Hoyt cam & 1/2 achieves virtually the same thing.

Having spent almost equal years shooting traditional vs. high-tech, (34+ yrs combined), to hear someone imply technology doesn't improve harvest is liking hearing a rifle scope is no advantage over open sights on long shots...

If you don't believe this, go to Oregon Bowhunters website and look at the scores from the state tournaments. Traditional shooters shoot from stakes considerably closer to the target than the freestyle shooters, yet the scores don't even begin to compare. Check out the indoor scores, where everyone is shooting from 20 yds... We're talking apples and oranges here.

The difference is...you have to be a better hunter and a darn consistent shot to regularly take game with traditional equipment because you have to get closer...period. Sure, there's a handful of exceptions, but they are far and few between.

Technology has enabled beginners to get better faster...and experienced shooters to get scary good.

M-Y

dla · 12-09-2003, 07:40 PM

Mello-Yello, I just love this :grin:

There is so much more to bowhunting than the shot itself that it is ridiculous to talk about bow technology affecting harvest.

If IR technology was available to allow you to find those goofy Elk 1/2 mile away. If stealth technology was available to allow you to sneak up invisibly, and without scent or sound. If guidance technology were available that would allow your arrow to find it's way to the target despite range estimation errors, little branches, critters that turn around at the sound of the shot, etc. If that stuff was available for field use, then I would agree that harvest would be impacted.

But whether a guy has a zillion mile an hour 85% letoff single-cam launching open-on-impact mechanicals, or my old Martin wheelbow launching old Muzzys, isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.

Thanks for the fun discussion :smile:

Mello-Yello · 12-09-2003, 08:38 PM

"There is so much more to bowhunting than the shot itself ..."

Ah, so true...there is much more to bowhunting than the shot. No one will argue that. But it's the shot that gets the harvest. If the shot is off, there is no harvest. Technology greatly improves the chances of the shot being on.

I hear what you're saying dla, I just don't understand the basis of it.

If everyone were capable of making every shot they took, and did so, then I'd agree. But they aren't. A flat shooting, accurate bow eliminates much of the "guess-work" out of range estimation. You don't have that with the old Martin roundwheeler. If the average nimrod were shooting your bow at a deer, and misjudged his distance by only a couple yards at say...35 yards, at best he'd miss. More likely he'd get a bad hit and be tracking blood droplets all day, only to go home empty-handed and sick to his stomach.

I guess I have to ask...are you still shooting your old Martin? Have you spent much time shooting some of the top-of-the-line bows available today? Or are you one of the guys that folds his arms, chin in the air and insists that your old martin is every bit the bow the newer one's are?

I just don't understand your reasoning...

Please explain so I can understand...

dla · 12-09-2003, 09:21 PM

Mello-Yello: Yes I still shoot the old martim wheel bow. Why? Cause it shoots right through Elk at 30yds.

But I must confess that I have been looking at the neater-skeeter bows :smile:

If I get a new bow one of these days, maybe I'll get to the point where I'll take 40yd shots. But I've never been in a position where I was 40yds away and couldn't get an extra 10yds closer. For me I'm either "pull their tail" close or 50+ yards away. I don't see where bow technology is going to help me much.

I've seen a Bull turn at the sound of an arrow launched from 55yds away, so I'm very leery of ever taking such a long shot. Even at 30yds they start to hunch from the sound - fortunately Elk are too slow and too big to duck the shot at 30yds.

I've only shot a fast single-cam, (a couple of dual-cams) at a pro-shop. Although the letoff was only 65%, the bows I shot had a very sharp well of maybe 1/4" to hold in. If I relaxed just a little I would lose the arrow. I guess I haven't shot a really nice bow with high-letoff that was easy to hold at full draw for a long count. I think my wheelbow is more forgiving in that regard because you can't relax as much.

Maybe if I get some new technology out in the field I'll see the advantage in making the shot. But right now bow technology seems like a 3rd order effect.

nitrobass · 12-10-2003, 07:34 AM

Good points..

MY I agree with you in part. Technology can really improve shooting skills, a slightly important part of bowhunting. It can definitely make a new shooter pretty good "right out of the box", and can make an experienced shooter really good. But I still think that the ability to put yourself in a position to fling an arrow is much more important than the ability to release it, and technology is a much smaller part of that.

Thats why there is more seperation in bow shoots than bow hunts. Right?

GRB, you're right! I always forget about turkeys. I skewered one of them years ago but have been using a gun ever since. Maybe this year I'll switch back...and then there are carp to shoot...then 3d shoots...Heyooooo!

Mello-Yello · 12-10-2003, 08:33 AM

Basically, there are two elements to success in bowhunting. Getting the shot and making the shot.

The original discusion was does technology improve harvest. I'm not implying that it does in some astronomical measure. But if you can shoot more accurately at a further distance (and even at closer distances), how can this not improve harvest?

As for increased harvest equalling shorter seasons, perhaps...but only if quotas are exceeded. It's been my understanding that when biologists determine quota, some of the primary criteria they look at is success rate. For example; If a herd of elk had 100 legal bulls, and they felt a harvest of 50 bulls wouldn't impact the herd, they could set a target quota at 50 bulls. It doesn't mean they'd issue 50 permits. If success rates were 10% in that area, they could issue 500 tags. Statistically, at 10% success rate, this would see 50 bulls tagged.

IMHO, weather conditions have probably had a greater impact on success rates than any technological impacts. Between forest closures, locked gates and dry weather conditions, hunting has been pretty tough the past few years.

Obviously, in areas that aren't permit entry, the harvest success rate isn't presently being threatened.

As for the handful of permit entry for traditional equipment only, Trout Creek Mtns for instance, I suspect the unit was changed to traditional due to the decline in herd populations. Not only did they limit the number of deer that can be taken, but they implemented equipment restrictions to further reduce the number of game taken...likely based on a lower success rate from traditional equipment...

Norm · 12-10-2003, 10:01 AM

I'm going to agree with mello-yellow. These rules are in place the same reason we don't allow scopes and sabots on blackpowder hunts. Bowhunting is suposed to be a challanging sport. If it gets too easy, everyone will want to play :smile: . I think 65% let-off is resonable and follows the pope and young rules. Any more let-off than that and you might as well shoot a crossbow. I also think the broadhead rules are reasonable. IMO mechanical broadheads are joke, and should not be used for serveral reasons I won't get into here. Most of these rules were adopted at the request of the Oregon Bowhunters Association. If you don't like them, thats the place to lobby for a change.

buckgtr · 12-10-2003, 10:46 AM

Norm,
The jist of this topic is that P&Y changed their let-off rules to accept record animals taken now or previously with higher than 65% let-off bows. This is My 2 cents on this topic. You still have to get close to your game, est. yardage, draw, pick a spot, make a smooth release and a good ethical hit. Should we outlaw fiber optic sight's?what about fall-away rests? etc. Are modern bows different than traditional bows "YES" and that's why they differentiated the two in the record books. To compare a modern bow to a cross-bow is ridiculious. You walk around all day with your bow drawn while your hunting? don't think so. How fast does the average bow shoot compared to the average cross-bow etc. etc. HMMM! I think that any rule change that is completed by such an org as P&Y and B&C should be followed by the individual states Dept. of Fish and Wildlife. Again this is my opinion and I hope I didn't upset anyone,It is not my intention.

Buckgtr

[ 12-10-2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: buckgtr ]

dla · 12-10-2003, 12:04 PM

Norm: No, higher letoff doesn't allow you to shoot a higher poundage bow. Not at all. The hardest part of the shot, (hardest physically), is the draw, not the hold. Let-off doesn't help the draw.

The only thing limiting bow speeds is ability of a person to store energy into limbs with a single, unaided draw. If we could use mechanical devices to charge a bow, I would imagine we'd have arrow speeds approaching 500fps.

[ 12-10-2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: dla ]

nitrobass · 12-10-2003, 12:36 PM

Does anyone honestly know someone that draws a bow thats over 80 pounds anymore? Its rare to even see a manufacturer offer one. Fact of the matter is that people are using bows at MUCH lower draw weights these days than they used to.

65 percent, 85 percent, really whats the difference? I'm thinking that anyone that shoots a 65 percent letoff bow should have no problem with someone shooting an 85 percent letoff bow. Remember when round wheel bows with 50 percent letoff was the norm a few years back? Was there this ethical issue raised when bows started moving towards 65%? What about single cam technology? Its hard to understand how we can say "some of this technology stuff is fair but not too much".

Yes bowhunting is supposed to be a challenging sport, and looking at statewide success rates I think it is.

Some of the arguments being raised regarding effective kill ranges, arrow speed, etc are coming from generalizations that arent accurate, and are not supported. Arguments from the heart and not from the head are hard to win.

[ 12-10-2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: nitrobass ]

Radke · 12-10-2003, 01:04 PM

My archery buddy shoots a custom made Alpine that pulls 95 pounds. When we first started hunting together, he had it cranked up all the way but could only shoot about 3 arrows before his arm gave out. Now his sholder isn't holding up and he can't back it off enough to shoot it at all. Now he has to buy a new bow, but I bet he can get a bow pulling 65 lbs that will out shoot his old antique.

Norm · 12-10-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dla:
Norm: No, higher letoff doesn't allow you to shoot a higher poundage bow. Not at all. The hardest part of the shot, (hardest physically), is the draw, not the hold. Let-off doesn't help the draw.

The only thing limiting bow speeds is ability of a person to store energy into limbs with a single, unaided draw. If we could use mechanical devices to charge a bow, I would imagine we'd have arrow speeds approaching 500fps.

Sorry, I'm in brain mush mode. Too many hex numbers dancing in my head :smile: . The point I'm trying to make is that a higher % let-off allows you to shoot a higher poundage bow with more acuracy. If you take two bows, one set at 75LBS with a 50% let-off and lets say on at 85LBS and 85% let-off and shoot a round of 3D targets. My guess is that your score would be close to the same. because the higher let-off will lower the stress on your muscles. More draw weight = more speed, and a flatter trajectory.

If you can add another 10 yds to your kill zone, your going to kill more animals. And at what point does archery become a consumptive sport and get managed similar to rifle seasons.

The real question is where do we as hunters draw the line on we feel is fair and sporting equipment. I like looooong seasons and would like the sport to stay primitive and have a low sucess rates so that can continue. Others may have different opinions.

[ 12-10-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Norm ]

Mello-Yello · 12-10-2003, 02:03 PM

Huh?? :shocked: :whazzup: :shocked:

nitrobass · 12-10-2003, 02:33 PM

I second that, MY :whazzup:

At this point I have to chuckle a little bit...

Mello-Yello · 12-10-2003, 03:13 PM

Man, I've gotten so much further into this debate than I'd intended.

We're beating a dead horse here. I would suggest folks do some homework on this subject and not let your heartstrings or gut-feeling completely control your opinion. This debate has been beaten to death for the past year in the bowhunting ranks. The information available on this very subject is astounding. Both opponents and proponents have battled long and hard over this, and whether you like it or not, many of them have forgotten more about archery than most of us will ever learn.

If you aren't part of an organization that lobbies on bowhunter's behalf, and you don't show up at meetings to state your wants, you're just another pathetic sheep following the herd.

"Stand up and be heard!
or sit down and shutup..." :grin:

Disclaimer: The above quote was not directed at any one individual, group or organization. It was merely used as an expressive device to quell unfounded statements and to make me feel a little better...M-Y

dla · 12-10-2003, 03:29 PM

Mello-Yello: lobbies on bowhunter's behalf - Question: who is being lobbied?

Norm · 12-10-2003, 04:32 PM

DLA, the ODFW is being lobbied. OBA has regular meetings to discuss issues like the one being discussed here. They lobbied for the Trout Creek traditional hunt and some of the late elk and deer hunts we enjoy. Most of the equipment restrictions are based on OBA recomendations. ODFW listens to them because they show up to meetings regularly and represent a very dedicated crowd. I used to be a member, but between work and school I've been a slacker and have not re-joined the last couple of years.

Tilla · 12-10-2003, 05:26 PM

Talons...right on, a bow is a bow.

Those over 65...do you feel 65% let off is reasonable?
I can't wait for the day when some of you go to draw your bow and find out you can't.

MooseTurd · 12-10-2003, 09:41 PM

I shoot a recurve and this year I didn't encounter a single hunter in the coastal unit I hunted, that used tradional gear. Invariably when I would meet someone who was hunting with a compound bow, they would want to hold my bow and then comment with amazement how light my bow was compared to theirs. And wouldn't it be great if they could carry into the woods something as light as my little recurve instead of the hunk of iron they were presently packing. My point is if all that technology compound hunters were lugging into the woods didn't improve harvest, nobody would be using compounds - why else would anyone put up with the weight and hassle of using one of these things?

Norm · 12-10-2003, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buckgtr:
Norm,
The jist of this topic is that P&Y changed their let-off rules to accept record animals taken now or previously with higher than 65% let-off bows. This is My 2 cents on this topic. You still have to get close to your game, est. yardage, draw, pick a spot, make a smooth release and a good ethical hit. Should we outlaw fiber optic sight's?what about fall-away rests? etc. Are modern bows different than traditional bows "YES" and that's why they differentiated the two in the record books. To compare a modern bow to a cross-bow is ridiculious. You walk around all day with your bow drawn while your hunting? don't think so. How fast does the average bow shoot compared to the average cross-bow etc. etc. HMMM! I think that any rule change that is completed by such an org as P&Y and B&C should be followed by the individual states Dept. of Fish and Wildlife. Again this is my opinion and I hope I didn't upset anyone,It is not my intention.

Buckgtr

I disagree, higher let-off percentages allow for people to shoot bows with higher draw weights. How many people would be shooting 85LB bows if they only had a 50% let-off? More draw weight equalls faster flater shooting bows which increases the kill range. Longer kill ranges will equall more animals killed. Thats why the split in the record book. I think the artifical boundrys we place on this sport in this state are reasonable in keeping with spirit of archey hunting. I think people should be able to use high let-off bows, auto range finders, lighted sites, and whatever other gadgets they want, just not during bow season.

dla · 12-10-2003, 11:59 PM

Norm: You brought up a good point - one that is a real sore spot with me. I'm sure that the Oregon Bowhunters Association is a great outfit, but the ODFW commission should treat them as one voice. One of many. Why? Because otherwise the Commission will ignore the common man - i.e. the taxpaying sportsman who doesn't happen to belong to some club.

The fact is that OBA doesn't represent the majority of Oregon bowhunters anymore than OHA represents all rifle hunters or the NRA represents all firearm owners. And these groups often have agenda's that are driven by the largest donors.

The letoff rule is a great example of a bad rule.

Hoosier Daddy · 12-11-2003, 06:59 AM

Good point Moose. That's why I switched to recurve. Why put up with the weight and gadgets that can break or be left at home?

MooseTurd · 12-11-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Why put up with the weight and gadgets that can break or be left at home?

Well, to improve your chances for a harvest. Nothing wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade - a bow is not a bow when you are comparing a compound to a recurve or longbow.