Steel Shot VS. Lead Shot

[duckngoose]

Well Just some good discussion for the room, anyway I Know there has been an age old debate about useing steel shot when hunting in the fields for waterfowl !!!! In my opinion I feel this is a tragedy for all of us hunters, I dont know about you guys but since useing steel shot over the last bunch of year, I have wounded more geese and ducks than ever. Since Mr. Ron Wyden lives in my home town and we have had many a discussion about this issue ? I know it compares to a one legged man in a butt kicking contest, but for me it is a serious issue.

Not every waterfowler in the united states can afford to use "bismouth", or any of the other heavy loads. I understand "I think" the issue about lead poisening and how it effects things. But In my humble opinion I feel If I am in the middle of a 5,000 acre winter wheat field or maybe a 1,000 acre corn stubble field, Why can't I use Lead Shot ??????? It is Ok to use lead on Pheasent in these same areas ? Why does this not make sense to me.

Lets face it, I am a huge fisherman and do fish when I can. But How many 10's of thousands of pounds of lead are in our rivers, lakes and oceans from fisherman around the united states !! I have donated my share of lead to this cause !! :smile:

Would someone humor me, and just tell me I am losing my mind ! I dont know, I am on my soap box asking for advice from other people who perhaps feel the same way as I do ?

Thanks for letting me vent

[Chromaflage]

Funny thing - we take lead out of the ground (mined from galena) and then we're not allowed to put it back. We just want to replace the natural resource that we have been borrowing. :grin:

It's kind of like asbestos. We spend time and money to mine the stuff from the ground, put it in buildings for insulation, take it out of buildings, put it in plastic bags and put it back in the ground. Hmm...

ORS

[ 12-09-2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

The big problem with led, in my opinion, is predators (eagles, owls and hawks) eating the lost birds and getting lead poisoning. Rather than the waterfowl eating the pellets.

[Wreckless]

I think Keta nailed it. Have you noticed how many birds of prey there are compared to 15 years ago. Don't get me wrong I'd shoot lead in a heartbeat...handloaded 3" buffered lead 2's...oh baby!

Change your hunting style, good decoys, good blinds and DON'T SHOOT until they are in range (40 yds MAX.) FAST steel does the job.

My 2 cents

Dennis

[id. painter]

My son ask me that exact same question last weekend.
" why can we use lead for Phesant, but not geese." " because the Birds that eat the crippled geese will injest the lead and it weakens the eggshell, so that they have problems reproducing" I answered. He then said "but dont the birds eat the Phasent and Grouse and Partrige also?" e. i said yes but they have no law about it ,,, End of conversation. I really didnt have a good response that would make sense.
ive felt that same frustration about steel shot. What I have found is that it works pretty well if you stop shooting at long range . I do fine out to about 40 yards with BB. But I miss the old #2-BB Copper plate lead . id. p.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Steel isn't as effective as lead, no question. It requires you to take closer shots. If you do, it's not that bad. IMHO

I don't own a hunting shotgun that will shoot steel so I don't hunt waterfowl. If I ever return to the ranks of the fully empolyed I'll look for a good O/U that I can use with non-toxic shot.
I'm trying to get on some private land for pheasants but all of the good land is in clubs.

[Chromaflage]

Just curious about this. I've been checked for having the plug in my gun and for using non toxic shot - the gamies just look at the shells. If you load your own shells, how do the gamies know if you are using steel or lead?

ORS

[Salty Walty]

Many of the complaints I've heard about steel shot have to do with the shooter not the shot. The effective range of steel is less than lead. Simply put it does not shoot as far and when you try and take shots beyond its effective range you will cripple birds. Some things that helped me were to not take shots beyond 35 yards, buy a steel shot specific choke tube and have a good dog.

[FishinTechnician]

How many of you guys remember the days out on Sauvies that your dog would pickup a limit of lead-poisioned live birds before shooting time? Mostly Pintails if I remember correctly. Not a mark on them, but to weak to fly. Shortly thereafter the check stations started selling those experimental steel loads. I think they were Remingtons. Now there was a worthless steel load if there ever was one, but they were learning in those days. In my mind they have come a long way and developed some pretty effective loads that will do the job under most circumstances. This is one change we can all live with for the betterment of the resource. SW is right on.....those that consistently wound and loose birds are either poor shots, or shooting to soon.

[Chromaflage]

Yup - just make the shell longer and pack more powder in it. I'm still holding out for the 4" shell before I buy my autoloader.

ORS

[ 12-09-2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: OregonRedside ]

[Gun Rod Bow]

Hey Shotshell,

I think your going in the right direction, just slightly off. I remember shooting lead on the refuges. I remember seeing birds crippled (and I did some too) at 60-70-80 yards with those good old Nitro Mags. I've folded ducks from high enough to scrape their hide off like a rasp when the hit the water.

When I first shot steel I thought it was an outrage. It was terrible.

But in the past 10 years the loads have gotten TONS better.

I recently paid under $8 for 3", 1 1/8oz BB's that go 1500 fps. Last weekedend we had geese on a string at 40yds, 20' high when I stopped calling and moved for my gun, flaring the geese at the same time [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

My buddy and I both folded (as in dead) 2 geese on the first shot at what I'd say was 55-60 yds.

Steel cripples birds. But so did lead. The new steel loads are just as effective, at a lessened yardage than lead.

A bird crippled at 50 yds is more likely to be recovered than one "skybusted" from 75 yds straight up IMO.

[billc_sbio]

Well...this is only My OPINION...so don't flame me...

There are TWO problems with Steel shot, #1 is lack of range (but you can learn to let them come in closer, or else NOT shoot) and #2 is NOT ENOUGH pellets in the shells due to lack of volumetric capacity.

It's always been "that to improve your energy, you go UP in shot sizes", which does work...to an extent. My fav (Steel) Goose loads are BBBs, and when I'm ONLY hunting geese I use a 10ga for just that reason (to give myself the largest capacity hull) to accomodate as MUCH of those large pellets.

I have friends who swear by shooting BBs on ducks because of the extra range, but I argue with them that they are WRONG because there aren't ENOUGH pellets to guarantee enough hits on a duck size target...they wound too many birds! You need to have a BIG target to insure that you put enough pellets into the "vital" area of the bird.

Actually there IS a "compromise" load that works pretty well IMHO. I have an ex-guide friend who used to guide the Tri-Cities area and he swears that the BEST Duck load in steel he's ever seen is the 3" 1-1/4 oz. load of #1s It makes sense, by going to the larger volume load you increase your pellet count...some...by going to #1s you increase your energy (range) per pellet.

On the issue of "danger to predators eating Lead shot IN the dead (target) birds" I personally think this is a MYTH! I've seen copies of the Federally used studies that were used as a valid arguement for "sealing the fate" of waterfowl hunters using Lead shot by the USF&WS, and in the pictures of some of the ingested Lead "shot", much of it looked like pieces of "scrap Lead" (NOT shot!) that came from who knows where!

The digestive tracks of Raptors (birds of prey)are DIFFERENT than vegetarian birds (waterfowl), and they don't GRIND UP/PULVERIZE their food the way that waterfowl do when eating grain. This pulverizing (which is MOST active during periods of extremely COLD weather) is the principal reason for Lead poisoning...it's actually finely "powdered" Lead...i.e. ground-up shot, NOT big individual pieces of shot that pass right through the bird.

As far as the LACK of birds of prey goes...talking to farmers in areas of the N.W. that once had impressive populations of Pheasants...their single, resounding, reply seems to be, "Well...there's a lot MORE Hawks around now than there used to be!" Seems like too FEW raptors might NOT be all that big a problem?!!'

I'd like to see things go back to like they were about circa 1990-91 when you could use Lead shot over dry land areas...non-toxic over marshes.

Trouble is I doubt those days will ever return!

[ 12-09-2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[billc_sbio]

ORS,

They used to just use a magnet.

Now (with all KINDS of Non-Toxic shot), they have a fancy little unit with colored LEDs on it. It "shows" them WHAT shot you're shooting!

It can detect between Lead, Steel, and the other No-Tox shot types!

[duckngoose]

Well thanks for the responses ! Good Decoys, good, sensible ranges make no difference in the obvious performance degredation one finds using steel as opposed to lead. More wounded birds, at all ranges because of pattern dispersal and poor penetration. The handful of lead affected birds that die does not outweigh the thousands of dying wounded because of government over-regulation and shot restrictions in all areas, including dry-land hunting situations. How many reports on the lead affected death or poor reprouction rate of grouse, snipe, quail and pheasants are you aware of. None of these birds have teeth, either, the last time I looked, and have to pick up gravel, and potentially lead shot, to chew thier food. Remember DDT. Lets put the mortality problems blame of waterfowl and raptors where it really belongs. Heaven forbid, farmers should have to change thier methods. easier to blame poor decoys, lead shot and long shots. :smile:

[Gun Rod Bow]

The pellet count issue is a problem. I used to shoot a lot of mallards on the big river and settled on #1 shot having the best result.

But "speed kills"! If you have a load going at 1500 fps instead of 1250-1300, you can drop to #2's and keep your pellet count up with good penetration.

If you do close inspections of geese, you'll find balled up steel pellets near the skin. Smaller pellets at higher speed work much better.

I found this to be especially true in the lead days. Stopped shooting the 1 7/8 oz BB's. Nothing whacked 'em better over decoys than 1 1/4oz #4's at 1400fps.

[duck-boy]

duckngoose,
1 thing to mention is choke tubes and steel, this makes a huge diffrence in patterns on paper at 40 yards the ones made for steel like the extended choke tubes in modified with high speed #2's are like 90% on paper that makes a huge diffrence when the time counts. don't be fooled by cheap imotations the good one are $60-$100 bucks but well worth the price it will make more shots count and less cripples down the road and in the long run it will save you money. less shells more birds....... good hunting my 02 worth
duck-boy

[Bait Bucket]

OregonRedside, the Feds use a shot tester they carry with them to test for non-toxic shot. I have been checked while duck hunting on the east coast. The warden put each of my reloaded shells in a small electronic box and got some kind of reading on it. I found a photo of the tester on the internet shortly after being checked to see what it was. I will try to find that photo again.

[Chromaflage]

Yeah, I thought that there was something else they used to check. Some type of an x-ray fluorescence device..I don't remember exactly. I've never had them check my shells other than look at them.

ORS

ORS,
A magnet for steel.

[Salty Walty]

DnG you are missing the point. Steel/Non-tox are the law of the land. Ask yourself, "Is it better to be over regulated or not hunt at all?" I started waterfowling in the early 80s' so I have some but not alot of lead experience. My favorite loads were 4 1/2 dram 1 1/2 oz. 2 3/4in. Activs. We dropped many birds at < 60 yards with those loads but also cripped quite a few. In this lead/steel debate one tends to ignore the fact that there were cripples and losses with lead too. With the non-tox loads now your misses or extra pellets won't possibly kill birds in the future. Call it old age or wisdom but I shoot 3" 1 1/4oz 3s at them when they are hovering the dekes. It is harder to miss and you have the satisfaction of knowing that you did the job.

[Chromaflage]

D'oh! [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] and I knew that too...

[billc_sbio]

So do the OSP...it's a little box, ~4"x4"x2" out of grey plastic...got a row of colored LEDs on it and a cavity they put the nose of your shell into.

When they do, the lights light up in a secquence (Red, Yellow, Green...a few of each), and the "code" tells them WHAT the shot in your shell is.

[billc_sbio]

When I first moved to N.W. Oregon, I lived in Scappoose. I used to have permission and hunt some of the fields out there.

I'd hunt one day with Lead, then out at Sauvie WMA the next with Steel.

I'm not a bad shot and I could definitely TELL the difference...my 1-3/8 oz. handloads of hard Lead #5s used to just whack those ducks so mercilessly!

Over on Sauvie, I KNEW I had to shoot 'em close and would! Often there'd be a big puff of feathers (we're talkin 20-25 yd.s right OVER the dekes)...looked like I'd hit 'em with a baseball bat...and many would fly off!

There IS a difference!

:grin:

[billc_sbio]

Salty Walty,

There was a lot more POLITICAL INVOLVMENT in the "Steel Shot' issue than what most people will ever remember/realize!

It all started a long time ago with a fellow named Dr. Frank Belrose, who was a professor at the (I believe) University of Illinois.

He was a big waterfowl guru, and he came out with a "study" that indicated how high the losses of ducks, due to Lead poisoning (Plumbism) were.

A little later some Waterfowl Bios at the USF&WS got hold of it (maybe some of his former students?) and decided to "run with it".

A number of years (and attempts off and on by the USF&WS) later, just on the eve of the Feds mandating the use of Steel Shot, the Oregon Duck Hunters Assn. put on a series of "Informational Seminars" that had highly respected "Expert" speakers (they flew 'em in!) on both sides of the issue, address the club members. It was a really good exposure to a complex issue.

I think it's safe to say that much of Belrose's study was valid. It did predict certain high mortality losses in some populations of ducks. Also, these seemed to be concentrated in certain "hot spots"...areas where this occured a lot...other areas did not necessarily experience the same high losses (but the study ASSUMED they did!).

What Belrose's study DID NOT do was account for the relatively high losses from using the less effective ammunition. This was a major stumbling point that held off mandatory FEDERAL regulation of Non-Toxic shot for a number of years.

Many States balked...they had their own studies, often performed by well respected State Biologists and Universities etc. and many of those studies DID NOT agree with Belrose's study!

There was both "good science" and "bad science" going on at the same time here...what ends up happening is you end up having a number of people (these in the Federal government in this case) who have an "Agenda", and they're going to push that agenda UNTIL they manage to make it "the law of the land" as you describe it.

Finally, they got hold of some study where some Bald Eagles somewhere had (allegedly) eaten some shot ducks and they'd gotten sick (again allegedly) from the Lead shot. Well "This was it!" A Federally ENDANGERED bird...being threatened by waterfowl hunter's spent ammunition...STOP THE PRESSES! Well...you know where things went from there?

Oh, and don't think the ammunition companies were totally INNOCENT in this conspiracy either! They knew...they had this Golden window of opportunity...to manufacture something that nobody else COULD! You couldn't (back then) BUY the shot, you couldn't buy the powder, the special shotcups were NOT available, and they told everyone that it wasn't SAFE to load your own shells! There was an incredible opportunity there to make really NICE Profits! And they did!

Today, things are different, they've changed.

But many hunters who are reading this right now are too young to have been around...to have seen...WHAT was going on...and how the "Law of the Land" became the law of the land!

[ 12-10-2003, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

[FishinTechnician]

DnG the point I was making on lead poisioned birds applies to shooting areas where hunter density is high and where lead shot buildup on lake bottoms was obviously apparent and lethal to ducks. Places like the eastside of Sauvies and the hundreds of thousands of other game management areas and private duck clubs around the country with similar setups. All would still be killing ducks..... and some 365 days a year if we had not changed to nontoxic shot.

[Bait Bucket]

Here it is, OregonRedside. This is the little box that the Feds carry with them to test for lead shot.