Biodiesel Observations

Snug 2 · 11-29-2005, 12:28 PM

I am always a bit skeptical of the government and these day big oil. Today I saw to vehicles with biodiesel stickers on them and it got me wondering.

I feel biodiesel is a great alternative and I would love to see the growth of this industry. Right now it seems to me to be mainly a grass roots effort by some concerned citizens to get it going. I have not heard much about large corportations getting into the production of it. Are there any?

My questions/comment/concern comes from the fact that if big oil wants something, they pretty much get it. Does anyone feel that an increased biodiesel use might lead big oil to try to take over production? I sure hope not, but it is just a thought.

What do others think about this issue? And, on another note, if hydrogen fuel is good enough for a large percentage of the vehicles in Iceland, why isn't it good enough for us?

wthr4d · 11-29-2005, 02:47 PM

Snug- I saw a BP ad on tv a while back that said they were getting into biodiesel and other things. As the world trends away from [petunias!] diesel they will go where the money is headed.

there are several major corporations and government institutions working on biodiesel...including OSU.

here is goodle search I did on "corvallis biodiesel"

google search

scroll to about the middle of the page for a link to SeQuential Biofuels, they are a major supplier to this area.

what I see as the biggest stumbling points are that the infrastructure isnt there production and distribution, and also the fact that since it hasnt been tested for twenty years the car manufactuers wont let you use more than b20..20% biofuel mix without voiding your warranty. shelflife, corrosivity and stability issues can be solved by getting a little money flowing in the research direction and increasing production, IMHO.

paul

ajfishfinder · 11-29-2005, 02:59 PM

Kettle Foods in Salem is running several cars ond trucks on it. Of course they have and endless supply of used oil.

I also have a neighbor who sells a system to make your own. He is currently fueling his truck and his wifes excursion with used french fry oil. It takes about 24 hours and about 1 hour of hands on labor to make a batch. He is currently making it for $0.65 a gallon. I figured it out that if an average joe burns 50 gallons a week, he would pay for the production system in 10 months. Only 5 months if he was splitting the cost with a neighbor. The only catch is finding a reliable source that will keep you in used oil. A year ago most restaurants were paying to have it hauled off. Now some are starting to get paid for it. If you could secure a source now, I think you would be set for quite a while. Especialy if you own a MC-D's or something like that. Pm me if you want my neighbors number. He would be happy to talk with you in detail.

KChookem · 11-29-2005, 03:02 PM

The November 21, 2005 issue of Newsweek has several articles about energy, including one titled "Ten Eco-Friendly Companies" that briefly discusses all types of interesting alternative energy sources. There is also some info on engineering motor vehicles for better mileage in the article titled "Go the Extra Mile".

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 11-29-2005, 04:14 PM

BioDiesel on the surface looks and sounds like a good alternative fuel source for automobiles. It is an excellent way to power as many vehicles as possible with waste. On a large scale it has its own potential biological disaster. For instance.

What land are you going to plow under to grow the huge amount of seed crops necessary to make Biodiesel a viable alternative to fossil fuels?

From what rivers are you going to get the needed irrigation?

What are the future effects of runoff into watersheds from additional large scale farming needed to make Biodiesel a viable alternative and not just a novelty?

Biodiesel production has its own environmental problems.

Hydrogen technology is the way of the future.

ajfishfinder · 11-29-2005, 04:32 PM

Do all the seed crops even need irrigation??? I know there is a whole bunch of ground in the western states that is currently covered in CRP which does nothing but make farmers and pheasants happy.

wthr4d · 11-29-2005, 05:10 PM

HMBF- How many farmers are plowing their crops under now just to get farm subsidies? there are many good oil/seed crops that can be grown without the need for heavy irrigation (ie:corn, sunflower, soy, fava and other legumes)

I agree that Biodiesel ISN'T the final answer and yes Hydrogen WOULD be a great final solution. HOWEVER, right now the technology exists for ust to use biodiesel directly with litlle conversion...thus freeing us from foreign control AND dependance on a non renewable resource. In other words, its a quick easy way to employ more americans to provide for americans while we develop beter options.

I think I've said enough.

paul

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 11-29-2005, 06:25 PM

There are low maintenance high yield oil seed crops. Rapeseed which produces canola oil, sunflower, flax, mustard, etc...

Biodiesel is a good thought. In the overall scheme of things it is merely a distraction. Time spent on biodiesel takes away time spent on truly viable solutions like hydrogen.

Although I hate to find benefit out of misfortune. The inevitable conclusion of GM's demise in the near future may well be the catalyst that pushes Americans towards alternative powered vehicles. Hydrogen means the end for so many huge corporations. The company that has a Hydrogen powered vehicle that tops 100 mph ten years from now will be worth investing in.

fish_on · 11-29-2005, 07:34 PM

Bio is great to run, my car runs smoother and quieter on bio. If you have never used it be careful the first time. Bio is a great solvent and will clean out all the junk that grows in your tank and lines with the [petunias!] diesel so you might plug a fuel filter the first time you use it. I have been running at least 1 tank/month of B100 since my car was new. I wish all diesel were required to have around a 5% mix of bio.

Abalone · 11-30-2005, 10:59 AM

We need to get Bio going so we can Tax the hell out of it.

One of the things that makes it desirable is the low price due to no taxes. But people are using the roads without contributing to the expense of maintaining the roads and eventually that little windfall will end.

Then it will be a purely environmental cause.

OdieWon · 11-30-2005, 11:25 AM

Hey Abalone...where do you get the idea that biodiesel is less expensive? I was getting diesel at a service station in Bend during elk season. They had a separate pump for biodiesel, but it was .10 per gallon higher than the normal diesel. Where's the savings or the incentive?

Sounds like just another way for somebody to rip us off with a new novelty product.

Pickles · 11-30-2005, 11:27 AM

Only homebrew biodiesel is not taxed directly. All biodiesel sold at the pump is subject to the same taxes as regular diesel. Technically if you homebrew your own biodiesel, you are supposed pay taxes on what you use! There are forms at the IRS website regarding this!

fish_on · 11-30-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

We need to get Bio going so we can Tax the hell out of it.

One of the things that makes it desirable is the low price due to no taxes. But people are using the roads without contributing to the expense of maintaining the roads and eventually that little windfall will end.

Then it will be a purely environmental cause.

Regular Diesel $2.78 Bio $ 3.29 so what are the great price breaks you get from buying bio?

baltz526 · 11-30-2005, 05:25 PM

bio diesel, will make new income streams for all the large food oil users, like mcdonalds,bugerking,wendys,kentucky fried, ect.

Jester · 11-30-2005, 05:45 PM

As it stands bio diesel isn't cheap, Also the show I watched on the making of the stuff didn't delve into the waste (leftovers) of making it

From what I gather for every five gallons of Bio there's one gallon of crud

What happens to that stuff?

ajfishfinder · 11-30-2005, 06:45 PM

From the system I have seen, he has 3 gallons of by product and 40 gallons of fuel. The by product is used up lye or basically a dillitued or mild drain cleaner. Just flush it and help keep your pipes cleaned out.

Abalone · 12-01-2005, 07:19 AM

It's been about four years but I have had two different people do the biodiesel thing. One guy brewed his own and the other guy has it delivered to his house. My comments may be outdated and are based on what they told me.

One of the guys is a dedicated environmentalist that promotes bio in big way.

I was thinking that if I were going to do it, I would want to go the homebrew. But that's only if I could get a steady FREE supply of Cooking oil.

They told me at the time they didn't pay taxes.

Sorry

If I had a steady cheap supply, Say I were a manager of a fast food joint or something, then it seems to me the incentive would be there to run it.

TheRogue · 12-01-2005, 04:39 PM

When biodiesel becomes affordable and more widely accepted, big oil will buy it out and monopolize. Vast majority of production farming in the breadbasket of the midwest are already large-corporation owned already.

Take that one to the bank.

TR

bllelk · 12-01-2005, 05:15 PM

Been studying the biodiesel/used vegetable oil route for a year now. The left over waste product from making bio diesel is glycerin which is used in expensive soaps, know anyone making soap?
Frankly I'm sick and tired of getting hosed by the oil companies and some of you might feel the same way. We support the oil industry with tax breaks, war or give up land to make sure they get enough raw product and then pay outrageous prices at the pump so they can make ungodly profits. They're not done yet. Anyone notice about the only gas stations you see now are Shell and Chevron? How competitive is that? Check out Highway 30 N. of Portland.
Biodiesel or straight vegetable oil is a reasonable alternative for us diesel drivers. It is more friendly to the enviroment than petroleum for one thing and is starting to show up on oil company radar as potential competition. Hopefully with more plants coming on line, support from businesses like Kettle Foods, more high volume users (Pacific Pride maybe?) and people with $$$ like Willie Nelson behind it, it will become competitive price-wise. Whenever I go thru Lintton I fuel up with B-100. Just my little jab at big oil even though it costs a little more. At the Alternative Energy Show about six weeks ago there were some people from Corvallis with a system that lets you pump the used cooking oil out of of the restraunt waste oil dumpster, filter it and put it directly into your tank. The whole system installed with a heated fuel tank, pumps, filters and fuel lines was about $4,000.00. Still a little pricey but like solar and wind power or tying your own flies it offers some satisfaction despite the higher cost.
Darling International, one of the companys competing for used cooking oil, will sell you filtered used cooking oil @ $1.36 per gallon in large lots, 200 gallons. If you have a heated fuel line and tank you can run this straight. If you live on the coast or away from the big city I understand there is no one collecting used cooking oil.
So far this is one of the best things I have seen that Mom and Pop can do that can be very satisfying and save a few bucks.

Maddie'sDaddy · 12-01-2005, 06:06 PM

I dont drive a diesel but the guy we are elk hunting with uses it and we could allways tell if he was near by . smelled like french fries all through the woods. :smile:

fish_on · 12-01-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

. At the Alternative Energy Show about six weeks ago there were some people from Corvallis with a system that lets you pump the used cooking oil out of of the restraunt waste oil dumpster, filter it and put it directly into your tank. The whole system installed with a heated fuel tank, pumps, filters and fuel lines was about $4,000.00. Still a little pricey but like solar and wind power or tying your own flies it offers some satisfaction despite the higher cost.
Darling International, one of the companys competing for used cooking oil, will sell you filtered used cooking oil @ $1.36 per gallon in large lots, 200 gallons. If you have a heated fuel line and tank you can run this straight. If you live on the coast or away from the big city I understand there is no one collecting used cooking oil.
So far this is one of the best things I have seen that Mom and Pop can do that can be very satisfying and save a few bucks.

Running straight oil is what we call a grease car. check out this link they have lots of bio info http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52