Best elk brush gun ?

[fishuntr2]

I want to get a rifle for elk hunting the heavy stuff. Open sights with maybe a flip-up peep. My dad always hunted with a savage 30-30 but I was thinking maybe a 308 for the added distance accuracy. A friend hunts with a 45-70 but I have not been impressed with this calibers put down power...Any and all opinions welcome...what would be your preference and why?
Thanx

[outdoor.spec.ops]

The 30-30 settled the west! Try shooting a 30-30 at 150-200 yards, I think you will be surprised at the accuracy.

With a 30-30 you will be handicaped if you do get a long shot. I would sugest using your 30-06 or a .338 with a ghost ring peep or low power scope, like a 1.75-6 Leupold Vari X III.

My close range elk rifle is a .338-06 with this scope on it. It had a peep but my old tired eyes don't work well enough to use one anymore. I also killed a mountain goat at close to 300 yards with this rifle and peep sight. Next time I'm up I try to drag it over for you to try.

[ 12-02-2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Swamp Puppy]

are you looking for a brush gun? which to me implies heavy cover and short shooting distances. or just a rifle to hunt elk with?

for the brush gun i would recommend a lever action with open or peep sites in one of the larger calibers. .45-70 is ok with the 300 grain bullets..but the .444 is probably better. also, they just released a carbine chambered for the .454 Casull that might be worth looking into.

for a rifle, any of the .30 caliber high powered rifles will suffice with adequate ammo.

just my 2 cents...and i am probably due change. ha ha ha.

[Bait Bucket]

I hope you are not looking for a bullet that will shoot through brush. Nosler Corporation research proved a long time ago that there isn't any such a thing. All bullet designs and sporting calibers will be deflected by the tiniest of bush and leads to more cripples than we want to think about.

[dla]

fishuntr2: The 45/70 drills a 1/2" minimum diameter hole through an Elk. You can't equal that with a .308. Given that people make bad shots on Elk with all sorts of calibers, I can only assume you've seen/heard of one bad experience, root cause of which was a poor shot. Roosevelt Elk won't fall over dead from a loud noise :smile:

The best bush rifle for the Pacific Northwest is the stainless Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. It should be outfitted with a Williams WRGS peep and Firesight front bead. If you reload you can do anything you want with the cartridge - guys use them to take Africa's big 5. If you don't reload, PMC, Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Garette make high-performance ammo. Remington, Winchester & Federal make low-performance fodder safe to use in 1873 Trapdoor Springfields.

I'm not recommending the Guide Gun because of the cartridge alone. The Guide Gun is a packing rifle, easy to carry one-handed all day long with enough power to take a Cape Buffalo. It will lay flat on your back in a scabbard when you're mountain biking. They tend to have bolt-gun accuracy.

[River Ranger]

Marlin 45/70 guide gun :smile:
R.R.

I am a fan of the 45/70 and the rifle you suggested, however it's too specialized and in hunting situations there are many variables. What would you do if you happen to see an elk 250-300 yards through the understory and across a meadow or clear cut? The trajectory of the 45/70 would make this a very hard shot. It would be an easy shot with a 30-06 and you don't loose much velocity with a 18" or 20" barrel.

All,
No bullet will cut through brush.

[ 12-02-2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[fishuntr2]

I don't want a scope (fogging/rain)(my glasses are bad enough) and am not expecting to shoot through trees but a bullet that won't be easily deflected by say a leaf or small twig. On the accuracy side...a caliber that is capable of say 150 yd shots or less with adequate knockdown potential. Mainly heavy cover but there are some clearcuts on the way to that heavy cover. Would a lever action be better than a bolt or does it really matter? After all...you probably are only going to get off 1 shot and placement is everything. I own scoped rifles but want the option of a scopeless gun for those days when the weather is WET and I know I will be mostly hunting the brush.
Thanx

[salmoncatcher]

a browning BAR in 338 is worth looking into

[Swamp Puppy]

i don't know about shooting 300 yards with a 45-70. i've shot my brother-in-law's Marlin lever a few times and i can tell ya that anything beyond 150 yards with open sights on that gun is sketchy at best. compensating for drop at 300 yards with normal 300 grain loads...well, it's more like firing a mortar round than it is a rifle bullet. perhaps the round still has enough energy to do something to an elk..provided you can hit it. though, i guess so would dropping a rock on its head from the top of a tall cliff...ha ha ha.

as for "what if i see one off in the distance?" someone said it earlier...get closer.

[Wreckless]

I've been looking into a 12 Ga. slug gun for shots under 100yards. With sabots I think they would be devestating and the rifled barrels seem to be very accurate.

Food for thought.

[dla]

Mossberg_3.5: I know that lots of people giggle at the thought of knocking an Elk out by dropping a big lead weight on him.

A 405gr bullet leaving my muzzle at 1800fps is 3" high at 100yds, dead on at 150yds and only 3' low at 300yds. Thats 3', not 3" - just to be clear :smile:

It is really not that hard to pull off a 300yd shot with a peep sight. But without a lot of range estimation practice, or a range finder, it would be a poor field shot with a 45-70, in my opinion.

I know of a guy who measured the time it took two Bison cows to expire, one shot with a .338 mag (Hornady 250gr SP @2700fps, 70yd shot) and the other with a 45-70 (405gr JSP @1950fps, 80yd shot). Both were shot through the heart/lung area with the shots anatomically within an inch of each other. Both penetrated the animals completely. The winner? The 45-70. Why? Don't know, but the 45-70 had it down and dead in 15seconds. The .338WM left the animal standing for over a minute and the guy was just about to shoot it again when it toppled. Both cows were just under 1100lbs each.

Moss,
In a perfect world or on private land I would much rather get closer. Sometimes it just isn't possible. One moose I shot was about 400 yards away, accross a river and up on the side of the canyon. The river was unwadeable and I only had this shot. It was a good thing my 300 was sighted in for 200 yards. Down on the river bottom the visibility was 5-20 yards (SE Alaska rain forest). The same week, and a few miles up river I nailed a mountain goat at 50 yards with the same rifle/bullet combo.

As for long range shooting with a 45/70; the key is good range estimation and knowledge of your gun’s ballistics. A 400gr bullet starting out at 1800 fps and sighted dead on at 100 yards drops about 52" at 300 yards and has around 1000ftlbs of energy. I wouldn't try it but someone that knows their gun could. I'd rather see the 400 gr bullet starting out at 2600 out of my 416 Dakota.

[outdoor.spec.ops]

well, it's more like firing a mortar round than it is a rifle bullet

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">LOL :grin: I will think of the muzzle loader I will shoot tomarrow on my whitetail hunt will have the same trajectory.

[The Bloodletter]

Usually when I hear the term "brush gun" I think of the old Model 94 30-30. A fairly slow round with relatively poor downrange performance. If you are looking for something that slices through sticks and limbs and can still knock down elk you will likely be looking for a while. There is no such thing! You would be wise to choose a caliber not smaller than .270 that you can be consistently accurate with.
Beware of the macho "Bigger is Better" philosophy. I've seen too many hunters with 338 Win Mags and 340 Weatherbys who couldn't hit their house from the front porch. No matter how thick the brush, you can't kill what you can't hit. You still need to be able to get a good shot and, more importantly, be accurate.

As for "knock down" power, a 45/70 is more than enough gun for anything that walks the North American continent (and probably the earth) but don't be supprised if your elk runs off after a perfect double lunger. The only way you will knock an Elk to the ground in one shot is through the spine and a even a .243 would do that.
Open sights are fine but what do you do when you come to a clearing or thinning and have an opportunity at 150 yards? Open sights are a tough bet from distances in excess of 100 yards.
Just some things you might want to consider. :smile:

[outdoor.spec.ops]

I like to shoot them in the head

[Drakeblake]

I have a Remington 760 in .308 cal. It has a fairly short barrel good for brush. And oh yes its a PUMP ACTION. Although ive never used it on elk im sure it would do the trick.

-blake

BL'
Fear of recoil and the "macho" factor does effect accuracy, but a 338 with a well designed stock doesn't kich that bad.

I am far from a "macho man" and not very big, 5'6" and 130-140 lbs before I got sick (I'm a tubby 170lbs now). I've shot many medium and big bore rifles and can take the recoil of anything up to my 416 Dakota (no brain no pain?). I WILL NEVER SHOOT A 460 Wby AGAIN, they are dangerous on both ends and I hurt for days after shooting one 5 times (DUH!!! NO BRAIN NO PAIN). I swear my eyeballs hit the lenses of my glasses :shocked:

I'd much rather see an elk hit with a well placed 270 bullet (not enough for elk in my opinion) than gut shot with a medium bore. However a well placed 338, 375 or 45 bullet has much more penetration and does less hydrostatic damage (like blood shot meat).

[Swamp Puppy]

Win 94 30-30 [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] ..that's my brush gun. though i wouldn't think to take it out for elk. though i guess i could.

i hear ya on the varying terrain stuff Keta..i was just trying to keep it to "brush gun" recommendations. for an all around, carry anywhere gun..i'm with you on the rifle/scope combo. personally, i use a Model 70 '06 with a 3x9x50 leupold scope. that's my everything gun.

Within its range there's nothing wrong with the 30-30 too, especialy in a bolt action or a Savage 99 w/rotary or box mag. Pointy bullets help with range.

My most used rifle now is a 20" barrel Mauser 338-06 w/1.75-6 Leupold Vari X III. Low recoil and enough get up and go to do anything in the lower 48 (225gr bullet @ 2700fps).


PS:
Nothing I post here should be taken as criticism of any one and their choice of rifles and caliber.
It's only my opinion based on many years of shooting and having a fairly open mind. I've also both owned or shot most common and many uncommon and wildcat rounds as well as selling guns for 15 years.

[ 12-02-2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[shawn2010]

What about rugers deerfield Carbine. I think it is a pretty cool gun, which is a semi auto shoots a 44 mag, 37 inches, and is only 6 lbs.

Dla, You can't say that the 45-70 will put down a bufflo faster than the .338, did y those people you speak of do multiple test? and did the bullet goes through the exact spot on both animals, most likely not. each is also animal is also different,

I watch my uncle shoot an elk in colorado last year with the 300 ultra at 322 yards, I clocked it with my range finder, and when he shot it, all four legs came up and colapsed and slid 10 feet down the hill. The 45-70 is not the greatest caliber as you think it is, I bet the new 45 cal muzzle loaders shoot just as good as the 45-70. Christensen arms had a show on maybe 7 months ago with a bufflo hunt they too use a 300 ultra well it only took one shot and that bufflo fell right over like a ton of bricks. You can bring down any animal with any caliber with the right shot placement. I think the 30/30 is a good cal also.

[ 12-02-2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: shawn2010 ]

A 44 mag should NEVER be used on elk.
I would rather use a 45-70 than a hyper velocity 30ca for most hunting situations. Most of the "Great African Rounds" rounds are in the 2400-2600 fps range and they are known killers on tough game.

It is my opinion that frontal size causes more impact when a bullet hits so a 45 could hit harder than a 338. The 338 might have carried more energy out the other side of the buffalo also.

I still would rather use a 338.

[ScottD]

Maybe look into a 450 Marlin. (Supposed to be an improvement on the 45/70.) Here is a link: http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firear...tion/1895M.htm

Or maybe a Marlin in 35 Rem if the 450 is going to be too much recoil. http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firear...rfire/336C.htm

[BrotherWolf]

I have a 300 savage model 99 for my brush gun

[winterkill]

Fishhuntr2
I agree with keta, try a 30-06 with open sights. I know for a fact that we both hunt in the same area, and the 30-06 works great for just the reason you said: Walking through clearcuts on the way to brushy areas. I have shot elk with open sights using my brothers pump 30-06. One elk I shot it was down in coon creek, the other out in a clearing. My dad once knocked down a 5 point bull with his 30-30, only to have it walk off after he left for help. I just like to have that extra ummphf that the 30-30 doesn't offer. I would hate to get stuck in a clearcut with a 30-30 and a herd of elk 300-400 yards away! That is why I vote for open sights on a 30-06, in your situation.
My 2 cents
Ian

[dla]

Well shawn2010, it was a pretty interesting test on animals larger than any Elk you're likely to every encounter. And yes, the shot placement was identical.

Folks believe that the .338WMag is the ultimate Elk zapper, and rightly so. But the 45-70 did better. Why? Too many variables to know. But the message to you and others is - don't discount the 45-70.

There are so many folks steeped in the myth that velocity is everything - total excrement! Long before Roy Weatherby, before the turn of the century, hunters were harvesting game cleanly with large chunks of relatively slow-moving lead. Velocity gave us flatter trajectories which is simply longer point-blank killing ranges.

The problem of late is that gun manufacturers are selling hunters the idea that they need a rifle capable of a 400yd shot. When hunting stats were compiled, the majority of animals were harvested at less than 150yds. To counter that reality, somebody started the goofy idea that if you're going to spend all that money on a hunt, you have to be able to take what ever desperation shot presents itself. Of course this is silly economics - much cheaper to stay home and buy a side of good beef. My point is that too many guys have forgot, or never understood what hunting is about.

I only know one guy who can pull off a 400yd shot into an 8" kill zone in field conditions (not me). I know other guys who cart around their magna-blasters topped with 3x9 scopes who would be lucky to even hit a deer at 100yds.

If you look at the hunting regulations, you'll see that the ODFW specs a minimum caliber. That's because the ODFW folks understand that caliber is only marginally important.

[blacktail]

Keta has excellent information.

Another great alternative would be an old Winchester Model 71 .348 or a Savage Model 99 or Winchester Model 88 in .358 if you could find one first and afford it second.

Keta, are those Warne or Talley rings on that bear gun?

Mike

This rifle has Leupold QD rings w/Leupold Weaver style bases. Warne discontinued the bases I wanted so I just grabbed what I had on the shelf. What I had originally planned on using was Warne bases with a flip up peep and Warne QD rings. The recoil has deformed the aluminum on these bases and I have to find something stronger. I sheared the recoil lug off of a pair of Sako rings with my 416 Remington and went to Millet rings, ever been hit in the knose by a scope flying off of a rifle. Not fun, my kids called me "Rataxes" for several days.

Both the 348 or 358 would make good close in elk rounds. Nothing wrong with a 300 Savage either, it's almost a 308 and the Savage M99 is a handy lever gun. A M99 in 358 would be a handy and fast close range elk thumper.

One of the new super mags would be good too if the animal was shot at some distance. Close in, I feel that only bullets like Barns X or Failsafe would hold together. There would be lots of meat destroyed by hydrostatic shock too.

[Steelie King]

Keta,
I think way back you said something about a
338.06. If that was you I'll give you some [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] .
If not, then some one knows what they are talking about!

[Timber]

As Keta mentioned the 358 in a BLR would do you justice to 250yds and is a lot easier to come by than a 348 win.Tim

Steelie King,
I often use a 338-06 Ackley improved. If I were to do it over I would go with the standard 338-06 for better feeding. Mine feeds the improved case good NOW but it took lots of honing of the rails and follower. Cases were hard to make until Remington came out with the 35 Whelen, I partially size the case necks on the Wehlen cases and head space off the false shoulder when fire forming brass.

This year I shot a deer in the nose and the bullet exited the animal behind, and through, the liver.

[billc_sbio]

While I personally hunt elk with (and have taken several) a .338 Win., I have and shoot in competitons with 3 .45-70s.

For a close-in "Brush Gun" for Elk, never discount the .45-70!

Using a modern, strong actioned rifle and some hefty handloads even a Flat Pointed 405g bullet is going to make at LEAST a .45 cal. hole to start with and probably something larger as it penetrates.

For 75 yards and under you're going to have to look pretty hard to find anything much better than this 130 year old cartridge.

[periwinkle]

Fishuntr, Boy you sure have gotten the advice you asked for. I'm with your Dad and BrotherWolf. I have a 300 Savage lever action I bought thru the PX in Korea 1952. I have bagged a 1/2 dozen elk with it. If you hand load the ballistics are close to a factory 308, + you can use premium bullets. I also inherited a 30 30 Savage lever, it is quite a bit lighter.. However, I have never hunted with it. And you are right, "one can never have too many guns". :grin:

[shawn2010]

Hey not trying to start any thing, I take all of this in I am open minded. DLA or who ever can answer this, why is it 2 years ago, I shot a black tail in battle ground unit, just an average sized deer. I shot it with an 1oz 3" 12ga slug, I shot it about 20yards away and hit it right behind the front shoulder and it went right out the other side, left the same size hole as the entrance hole. I blew both lugs, it jumped at least 5 feet high then ran 20 yard. When uncle shot this elk with the 300 ultra at 322yards when it entered there was a small hole and the exit was much larger than that of my 12ga hole.

Why is a 30 cal high velocity not as leathal or as potent as a heavy slow moving such as 45-70?

My deer ran, I hit it perfect with a slow mover at 20 yrd, uncle stoned his elk at 322 yrds, with a much more devastation to the elk than my deer.

[ 12-02-2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: shawn2010 ]

Put a peep on your '06 and you will be happy.
Unless you want to get a second rifle :grin:
Hunting in wet country with glasses SUCKS!!!

[fishuntr2]

Oh and at the minimum a good synthetic stock. Stainless also might be the way to go? I haven't done any shopping yet so don't know whats available. Also I tend to pass on long shots, I will try and get closer if possible.

[ 12-02-2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: fishuntr2 ]

[dla]

Keta: You're right, a 300yd shot is difficult. So I do two things:

(1) Practice - the Guide Gun will shoot 300yds quite nicely. I use an old rail cleat (frog?) as a hanging target. But you've got to know that it is 300yds out in the field and I'm notorius for under-estimating distances. Fortunately I find very few opportunities to shoot 300yds out in the Coast Range.

(2) Get closer - after all, we are talking about hunting, not shooting. And the Guide Gun is a packing rifle.

[fishuntr2]

Keta...I am going to get more rifles :grin: Ya can't have to many! I have given some thought to another 30:06 as the one I currently shoot fits me like the proverbial glove and has always done what I asked. I don't want to change anything on that rifle.

[Fishbone]

"Contrary to many popular opinions, brushguns are simply compact, easy-to-carry, fast moving carbines. If scoped, they will usually carry small, low-power optics that will not distract from the gun's fast-handling characteristics. These guns are best in close encounters with big, often mean, nasty critters; thus, open sights are fine and good peep sights are even better." (Taffin, 2000)

FH2,
Be carefull or you'll end up like me, with over 22 centerfire rifles :smile: I wish I still had my FFL and could get you a good deal. There are some problems with SS in rifles but any make will be a good gun for what you plan to use it for. I have 2 SS Winchesters I had built for brown bear (and a permanently postponed trip to Africa) that shoot good but they are too big for most elk situations, They are a matched set of rifles with 19" barrels in 375-8mm Rem and 416 Dakota. Remington also builds a good SS rifle.

dla,
A 45-70 will kill at over 300 yards, just harder to hit with due to the variables. Sometimes you can't get any closer and on public land you often are forced to take the shots you get.



[ 12-02-2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[billc_sbio]

Shawn,

One BIG reason is hydrostatic shock! That .30 cal. bullet, travelling at 2,000 something fps out there at around 200 yards pushes a big "wave" in the "jello" (everything being high water content) of the innards of a big game animal.

There's massive damage created in areas quite a distance away from the actual wound channel of the bullet.

Not so with the slower moving but large diameter slug of your 12 ga. which is probably travelling BELOW 1,000 fps out beyond about the first 10 yards of travel.

One is relying upon the damage created by the large diameter projectile passing through the animal and creating damage while the other is relying on bullet expansion and shock from high velocity, high kinetic energy to put the animal down.

[billc_sbio]

Part of what got this discussion going was the notion that we were talking about a "Brush Gun" and also FOR Elk!

The conotation of "Brush Gun" conjures up images of a fast handling repeater...probably a lever action or possibly a pump.

If a hunter were usually able to make their first shot count there's nothing that would preclude the use of a short bolt action rifle in the modern high energy cartridges that some people have discussed. Anything from a 7mm Mag through the .30 calibers that can throw a 180g bullet well and on up to the .338s, .35s, even a .375! A person wanting to use a .45 caliber rifle could certainly use an African rifle like a .458 Win. Mag.

There's no doubt in my mind that a .300 Mag or .338 wouldn't be the BEST cartridge to use for Elk, and could certainly pass credibly in a bolt action rifle with iron sights, possibly a "Ghost Ring" peep rear or low powered scope.

However it's the notion that a "Brush Gun" probably would be a lever action and none of these can handle any of the really high powered cartridges.

So this leaves the "traditional" cartridges that these rifles have been chambered in, .30-30, .300 Savage, .32 Win.Spl, .32-40, .38-55 (now also the .375 Win.) and the .45-70. More rent additions include the .444 Marlin and the new .45.

Of all of these the .45-70, .444 Marlin and the new .45 Magnum are the only really acceptable cartridges for Elk. This is not saying that these are the best cartridges for Elk hunting...just the best cartridges available in a lever gun, a "brush gun".

[fishuntr2]

Whooo Hoooo...Thanx for all the replys..My main goal is a rifle that is open sighted and weather resistant and elk worthy. Stainless is probably gonna push it out of my reach financially but a well-blued rifle and a synthetic stock would work.
But the wood on a carbine probably isn't as much concern as the wood on a floating forend. I haven't been seeing any synthetic stocked lever actions. So again thnx everyone for your opinions and comments. All appreciated. And by the way...Anyone got a good brush gun for sale? :grin:

[ScottD]

Below would be a really good elk rifle in 350 Rem Mag, however the price tag is high and the stock is not synthetic like you want, but it looks like a really good rifle.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/673.htm

BillC,
Couldn't agree with you more. One thing that I did for a friend in SE Alaska was to take a 7mm Rem Browning BLR and rebarrel it to 338 Win.
I personally don't like lever or pumps but this is just my preference.

FH2,
Email me with what you are looking for and I'll keep my eyes open for one. If you're going with a bolt rifle I would sugest the same make as your present rifle.

[dla]

shawn2010: If they ever cover this on CSI or CSI Miami I'll let you know

I'll let you in on a little secret: other than in Hollywood, people and animals aren't thrown down by the shot. This is usually a shocker to first-time Elk hunters who expect such from their magna-blaster only to watch the trees parting as the Elk runs off.

I don't know why some animals drop, some jump, some trot, some run. What I do know is that a bullet has to be able to penetrate far enough to hit something important. Not to hard to do on a deer. More difficult on a Elk.

In days of old you couldn't buy a "bonded" or "interlocked" bullet. So with 3000fps cartridges you ran the risk that the bullet would turn into birdshot after about 3 inches of penetration - not lethal for Elk. I grew up hunting deer with a .270W and I learned fast never to shoot any part I might want to eat - nasty!

Today's bullets are pretty good. They stay together and drill a fairly decent hole through critters. Of course the 45-70 will drill a 1/2" hole from stem to stern. And a 12ga slug will drill a 7/10th inch hole minimum. My arrow cuts about a 1" wide, 4 bladed swath through an Elk. They all kill just fine.

Now there is a lot of value to a bullet breaking up at just the right time because it can make multiple wound channels in important organs. Tumbling or fragmenting bullets work great on thin-skinned, fairly small critters. But since it is near impossible to control the breakup, it is much better to drill the biggest hole possible all the way through the critter. That's the reason why folks hunting bitey/scratchy/stompy critters tend to stay with fairly solid, large diameter bullets.

If an Elk would charge back up to the gun with the intent of giving the hunter a piece of his mind, we'd change our choice of cartridge/rifle combo's in a hurry. :smile:

[dla]

billc_sbio: There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock".

Yes, I love to open a can of worms :smile:

[billc_sbio]

Coho,

O.k., how about "severe projectile induced wound trauma"?!!

[ 12-03-2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: billc_sbio ]

Hydroststic Shock

<a href="http://www.sabirifles.co.za/ballistics.htm" target="_blank">TERMINAL BALLISTICS

Terminal ballistics is a subject often discussed, but because it is so difficult to assess and measure, very little is known.
It is however worth looking at a few factors effecting terminal ballistics, especially with the hard skin of our tough African game.
People talk about hydrostatic shock, which is even more difficult to explain. All I know is that I have seen animals fall down like a flash and within a couple of seconds, get up and run off. I think that it was a shot badly placed and the impact shocked the animal and as soon as the adrenaline enters the blood the animal gets up and off it goes. Such an animal I believe fell down because of hydrostatic shock. I have never seen an animal die from shock, which is the upsurge of body liquids caused by the impact of the bullet causing a blackout. At the same time have I never seen animals get up after it went down with a good lung shot. A shot that exits the body will bleed much faster and the reduced pressure in the brain will make it fall down never to get up again.
If you want to have a clean kill you will have to penetrate into the vital areas of the animal and I have found few animals going further than 10 to 15 meters after a good lung shot with a bullet traveling right through the animal.
</a>

[ 12-03-2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[nerta]

30-06 with a peep sight and bolt action. You can shoot the FIRST SHOT as fast as any gun on the market. With practice you can shoot it as faster than most average unters can shoot a lever gun. Just my opinion.

[blacktail]

billc,

I'm surprised you didn't mention the .348 and .358 I had posted previously.

While I don't believe anyone is currently chambering a rifle in these calibers, they should be considered excellent brush guns for Elk when chambered in the Model 71, Model 88 or Model 99.

Mike

[dla]

The phrase "hydrostatic shock" is an imaginary phrase, that in fact is an oxymoron. There is no such thing.

Many people have studied the propagation of mechanical waves in tissue and determined that it is not a killing, let alone a damaging mechanism. Remember that they use mechanical waves to break up kidney stones - and people don't explode!

I love this discussion because it helps dispel some of the myths (like rising bullets) that hunters spread.

[blacktail]

I currently have a .338 mag for Elk, but if i could pick one rifle just for Roosevelts it would probably be .350 Remington mag in a synthetic stock with either a Leupold 1.5x5 or 1.75x6 scope and a barrel of say 21".

Mike

[Fishbone]

Marshall and Sanow (1992) discuss the "temporary stretch cavity" that occurs upon bullet impact with dense, pulpy tissue. They conclude that it is a significant factor in evaluating gunshot wound lethality.

Gunshot "shock" has been observed to cause a flattening of ECG & EEG (heart & brain activity) in animals, sometimes resulting in loss of consciousness within 1 to 2 seconds. The resulting "incapacitation" of the animal is useful to hunters in that the animal remains motionless prior to medical death.

"Shock" research appears limited, however, and not necessarily conclusive.

[ICHTHYDEMON]

Blacktail,

Why would you chose the .350RM over the .338WM ? Is it because of the shorter action of the .350?

[billc_sbio]

Blacktail,

Ya know I DID consider mentioning those...but they are fairly uncommon (I guess so are some of the others I mentioned, like .32-40 and .38-55) these days.

Yes, those both would be very good Elk cartridges. I think the Savage 99 was produced for awhile in .358 and that would be a good one. I think maybe Browning chambered the BLR in that caliber also for awhile.

The .348 Win., chambered only in the Winchester Model 71, actually a variation of the John Browning designed 1886 rifle is also a good choice.

Unfortunately Model 71s are (like the '86) both fairly heavy as well as being fairly "collectable" these days and most aren't seen out in the field anymore. Browning did produce a repro 71 during the late 80's or early 90's as I recall.

But you're right, those would both be good cartridge choices. And hey, some guys are mentioning the Remington 600 bolt carbine in .350 Rem Mag. ...I think I recently heard about Remington coming out with a similar short rifle/carbine bolt gun along the (design) lines as the 600 series of rifles.

[ICHTHYDEMON]

Remington came out with the 673 Guide Gun. Its chambered in the .300 short action ultra mag,and the .350RM. Its kind of ugly if you ask me. It has a tall shotgun style rib and a big front sight.

dla,
Fill a gallon milk jug with sand and another with water. Put the caps on and shoot them with a rifle that will push the bullet at 2400fps or faster. Notice the diferent reactions when hit. Your seeing hydrostatic shock.

billc,
Remington is now making a 350Rem in a updated M600.

Remington 673

[ 12-03-2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[billc_sbio]

When referring to "shock" there are a couple of different meanings to the word.

There is Shock which is a physical condition resulting in loss of conciousness brought on from loss of blood/blood pressure.

Then there is the the "shock wave", that I've been referring to here in our discussion of incapacitation effects between large diameter low velocity bullets vs. bullets both small and larger bullets at significantly higher velocities.

I contend that there IS a difference in what happens to an animal when the velocity is increased by say 1,000 fps!

I've seen photos of various bullets passing through Ballistic Gelatin, which is about as close as researchers have come to creating a synthetic substance that mimics mammal tissue. The nice thing about Ballistic Gelatin is that it leaves a tell-tale "trail" that clearly shows the damage that a bullet leaves when passing through tissue. Some of this damage clearly radiates way outside of the actual path of the bullet itself in certain designs and at certain velocities.

Two weeks ago I shot a large Mule Deer with a .50 cal. muzzleloading rifle. The 350g bullet hit the deer in the front quarter and angled back, passing through both lungs and exiting out just behind the off side front leg. At the impact the deer jumped and ran. There was a extremely prominent, continous blood trail left in the snow, leading to where the deer piled up and succumbed about 150 yards from where it was hit. The deer died from loss of blood, most of it being lost from the nose and mouth, not the 2" diameter hole punched through the rib cage and out the slightly larger than .50 cal. exit hole.

I was rather surprised that the deer was able to travel so far with this severe a wound.

Experience in shooting numerous similar sized deer myself as well as seeing others shoot deer with high velocity rifles leads me to believe that if I'd made the exact same shot on that deer with my .270 Win. and 130g bullet that that deer wouldn't have travelled 20' if it hadn't dropped in its tracks right where it stood!

So if the shock wave generated by high velocity bullets ISN'T a "significant factor" in how a big game animal reacts when shot, I'd sure like to know what is?!!