What Caliber?!?

[Steelie Ben]

Ok, I have been using a buddies 7mm winchester mag for this years deer and elk season. I love the gun alot but he won't part with it so here in lies the dilemna. I have to buy my own gun for next year, oh darn!! :grin: :grin: I have heard a lot of good things about the Short Ultramag guns and wonder if any of you own or have used one? Is there an advatage to the short mags or would I be just as well suited to get just a normal mag? Also, one more question, what would be a good multi use caliber to get for lets say eastern deer and western elk . I would like a versitle gun that would serve me well in both situations. Thanks for any input and advice you could shoot my way. (PUN intended)
SB

[blacktail]

30.06

165's for Deer
180's for Elk

Mike

[Flatfish]

So long as the gun is pointed in the correct direction( dude operating rifle matters), the chambering is not too critical( as long as it is suitable for what you want to do. Anything between .270 and .308 is suitable).

Chambering concerns are good for talk around the fire. And for marketing the same rifle to the same market.

.270 Winchester and 30-06 are terminal front runners. For good reason. The 7mm Rem mag is great too. But it kicks harder than the .270 and does not hit any harder than the 30-06( on the animal, not paper ballistics).

The ultra mag line( all of them) will kill anything in the lower 48 very dead. But ammo is not available in many backwoodsy places. Most any Ma-N-Pa stores that carry ammo have .270 and '06 stuff on the shelf. More rifles are available in the common chamberings too.

Whatever you decide on, keep us up to date.

Mark and the dog.

[sturgn]

My favorite is the .270 I have shot Antelope, Blacktail, Muleys, Elk and a Moose with it and its great!

[The Overfishin Condition]

I'm a big fan on the .270, although, mine has no recoil pad, and my dad's 06 with a recoil pad barely feels like it fires compared to the metal butted .270. I have a 06 also, all three are Rem. Model 760s. I love the guns, my dads and mine (used to be my grandpas) are cannonized killers, so far with the .270 I've shot... several boxes a lot of times.

[Small Fry]

I used to shoy my 270 and have killed a lot of deer and elk with no problem. I have now switched to an 30.06. The only reason I switched is I like the scope on the 06 better. I shoot 160 grn for both deer and elk.

[Boedy]

300 Win Mag is what I used as a dual use gun for sometime. Why be under powered for elk with a wimpy.270 and long range eastern Deer hate the .300. I have taking many deer with the .300 and never have had to chase one yet

That .300 WSM would be the way would go if I was looking for dual purpose gun today.

[nerta]

SB: If I could only own one rifle it would be a .338 win mag. Some people think it's to much for deer but you are never under gunned. If you don't reload a 30-06 is the best bet for an all around rifle. Short mags are cool but ammo is still expensive for them. Cheap ammo allows you to shoot a lot more and makes the confidence level increase. Bolt actions shoot better than most and hold value well. Just my opinion. Good luck finding a good rifle.

[dla]

Get a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. Put a Firesight front bead and a Williams WRGS peep on it. Reload your own and have some major fun. Make or buy a scabbard for carry across your back. You can have a low-maintenance levergun powerful enough for anything. Set a 500gr 45cal cast bullet next to a 180gr 30 caliber. Imagine.

[Killertraylor]

I think it depends on what type of hunter you are. Mark and the dog nailed it. The guy who has killed more elk than anyone I know (over 60 in several different states) killed most of them with a .240 Weatherby. One of the guides at the ranch I hunted at this year has killed 52 elk with his .264 Winchester Magnum. If you only take good shots at animals that are broadside, 200 yards or less, then any caliber from .243 on up will kill both eastern deer and western elk just fine. One of the other guides at the ranch killed his elk last year at 426 yards with a .243 and 80 grain bullets - it's all about bullet placement.

However, if you shoot longer ranges at animals that are running, etc., then I think the minimum caliber you should consider is one of the belted magnums from .257 Weatherby on up. They hit harder out past 200 yards, increasing your margin of error. I tend to fall into the latter category - I'm very confident in my shooting and will take a long shot without hesitation. I use a .300 Winchester magnum for Elk and a .264 Win Mag or .257 Weatherby for deer. All will kill elk and deer deader than dead.

My new favorite is the 7mm Remington UltraMag (Don't confuse with the 7mm Win. Short Mag) The 7mm Remington Ultramag hits harder than a .300 Win Mag according to the ballistic tables and has marginal bullet drop and good energy all the way out to 500 yards.

You asked about the advantages of the short magnums - the only advantage is you get a short action rifle which means a shorter bolt throw and usually a lighter gun. That can also be a disadvantage if you are concerned about recoil. A lighter gun will kick a lot harder than a heavy gun. Balistically, they are the same as their regular length magnum counterparts.

[Firedog]

I would say as far as versatility goes it is hard to beat the good ole 30/06. Easy to get ammo for and relativly cheap to shoot if you don't hand load. Now that said I think any of the .300 mags, either the standard or the short mags are good choices for elk and eastern deer. For an all around caliber. I thin if I were to lookinto one it would probably be the .300 win short mag, pretty much the same balistics as the standard and built on a shorter action.

Personaly I carry a .300 weatherby for elk and a .280 for Deer. My .280 would get me by just fine for both but you can't have to many guns :smile: and I like to handload so the .300 gave me another otion of loads to use.

[Salty Walty]

I like my 300 win mag. I've taken boar, deer, elk, caribou, moose and ground squirrel with it. It has more to do with what you are comfortable with and if you shoot it well. If you like your buddys 7mm and shoot it well get that one. As said in previous posts the new short mags and ultas are good rounds but try and find some in a small town hardware store. Two other suggestions go with a stainless barrel/synthetic stock and don't go cheap on the scope. You don't have to break the bank but if you can't see it you can't hit it $200-$250 is a good place to start.

[KingFisher85]

Good ol 300 win mag

Now if you want to make sure they are dead, the good ol 300 weatherby mag would be one to get

[shawn2010]

last year I hunted easter washington with my 300 ultra mag, with the long barrel, muzzle break, VIII 4.5-14X50, the gun got heavy at the end of the day, but it can reach out at touch a deer in a hurry with my hand load 150 grain Nosler Part. or put down almost any animal in the world. This year I hunted western washington with my .243win model 700 bdl with a 4x scope, much lighter to carry, it to will put down a deer. P.S the ultra mag with a break on it will make your ears ring for days with out hearing protection.

[SeanD]

30-06. A 300 short mag betters it ballisticly, but at the expense of more expensive ammo, less cartridge capacity, and from what i have heard, sometimes finicky feeding problems. 300 win mag is about the same as the short mag (can be faster if you handload), but both have more recoil than the 30-06. I dont think the added velocity from either of the mags offers any more killing power than the 30-06. 30-06 is less expensive to shoot, has less recoil, and is just as effective as the others when it comes to killing animals.

A 30 caliber is about the best choice for a dual purpose elk/deer rifle i think. If i wanted more punch than the 30-06, I wouldnt buy a 30 mag, id buy a 338 win.

[ 11-20-2003, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: SeanD ]

[straightweave]

There was an article in Field and Stream last year about how guides are tired of getting their clients close to big game, and then watching them blow the front shoulder off the animal w/ one of the new magnums. Not that it won't happen w/ the '.06 or .270, but you will spare much of the damage if the shot is forward just a touch.

Another thing is that the magnums do eat up barrels. Some articles say 2000 rounds and the barrels on .300 sm have to be redone or replaced. My buddy at Remington says it is more than that, but it will happen. The .06 and .270 are double that amount before having to worry about a new barrel.

[Artwo]

My next all purpose rifle will be a 300WSM. A buddy of mine bought one last year and it is sweet.

[northriver1]

If you can stand a little more recoil than a 270 brings your way go with the 300 WSM or the tried and true 300. One size of bullet fits all for deer and elk, 200 grian nosler.

[buckgtr]

"300 Winchester Magnum"
180 grain Nosler partition= Roosevelt elk, Rocky mountain elk, whitetail deer, Mule deer, Blacktail deer, caribou, moose from 25 yd's to 500 yd's. Can't go wrong with this caliber!

[Catching Nemo]

I was recently in a similar situation and settled on the .270 WSM from previously owning a 7MM RM. The recoil from the .270 WSM is comparable to what you have already been shooting in 7MM REM MAG (slightly less) and would handle anything in the lower 48. Then again, so would a .30-.30, .270 Win, 7MM-08, .308, 30.06, etc, etc...

Pro's .270 WSM, 7MM WSM and 300 WSM

Headspacing with potential increased accuracy(although is a moot point when talking minute of deer or elk)
It's fairly new (the latest and greatest at least until next year)
It's flatter shooting (minimizes your error potential)
Smaller action
Lighter rifle
Handloading potential
More efficient powder burn (uses less powder and gets similar results to the belted mags. Deer however will not notice the difference)

Con's

It's new (may fizzle but doubtful. The .223 WSSM is another story)
Ammo availability in remote areas (not really an issue for most of us)
Lighter rifle
More expensive ammo than 30.06 and other tried and true rounds

One thing to consider about the Remington 7MM SAUM and the 300 SAUM is that there dimensions are different than that of the Winchester rounds and are not interchangeable. In addition, there are more rifles (different makes) chambering the WSM's than the SAUM's. That could mean the demise of one and the acceptance of the other.


Check out this link: http://www.shortmags.org

[Steelie Ben]

Thanks for all the reply's, I knew I could count on you all for some guidence. I am gonna hit this weekends gun show up and see what I can find, gonna take the old man with me too and see if I can get him to help with the $$. :grin: I noticed alot of you are concerned with recoil, is there a particular reason for this or do you just not like a sore shoulder? I am new to hunting although I have lots of rounds of target shooting under my belt and I guess I am just trying to get a feel for things. I have shot quite a few rounds through the larger calibers such as the .300 mag, .338 mag, and the likes and am not too worried about the recoil factor. I have heard that .300 mag is to much for deer and would ruin most of the front of the animal, but on the other hand I don't want to be undergunned. Also alot of you metion that you load your own shells, this is an option for me as my girlfreinds dad is very experienced with that. I have picked his brain for long enough that I think he was getting tired of answering my questions and just wanted me to make up my mind!! I am truely thankful that there is a place that I can come and great people will help us newbies out.
SB

[Catching Nemo]

IMHO

Recoil: Being worried about recoil is a legit concern but not because of sore shoulders. Heavy recoils lends itself more readily to flinching which affects accuracy which could lead to a clean miss or a badly wounded animal that you may not recover. If you practice enough you can overcome those issues.

Fatigue rather than soreness would be the second issue regarding recoil. Generally a person's ability to shoot well will be gone long before they are ready to admit they have a sore shoulder. Putting rounds down range while using a rest is great and not very tiresome. Try 30 or 40 free handed while in positions that you would actually shoot from and it becomes a different matter. I own a .458 Win and a .480 Ruger revolver. Both are a hoot to shoot but I tend loose accuracy really quick with them and I do not practice with them as much as the other calibers I own. Cost being one of the major issues - even when you reload as I do. A friend of mine has a .300 RUM as his "one rifle" and it really is his only rifle. He takes it out just before the season starts and shoots a box of ammo (using a rest) and proclaims himself good for the rest of the year. Using the rest he shoots 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards. Free hand he shoots minute of barn.....

Undergunned: Back in 1895 Winchester came out with a new powerhouse called the 30-30. It was a fast heavy hitting round that was good for all game in the lower 48. 6 years into the new century came the new powerhouse the .30-06 and the 300 Savage came along in 1921. These heavy hitting rounds were considered good for any game in the lower 48. Now you might be told that all 3 are marginal and you could find yourself undergunned. The first 2 calibers have probably taken more big and dangerous game than all the other calibers combined that are now available to the American hunter.

Shot placement is the premiere issue above all other dicussions over caliber, velocity, sectional density, etc.. If you can't hit where you aim then all the other issues are academic.

Which brings us back to practice and overcoming our natural tendency to move out of the way of a heavy object recoiling in our face with 20+ lbs of energy while moving at 13-15 FPS. It is not a natural event.

I believe the biggest virtue of the "magnums" is their ability to shoot flatter than their non magnum cousins. Flatter shooting eases the guess work needed at the longer ranges and can provide more allowance for aiming errors.

YMMV

[Silver Eagle]

If you really concerned about recoil, just buy an auto, I have a Browning 338 loaded with 225 N.P. and 73 grains of powder and can empty the clip and not flintch, but the gas in the auto takes care of that, and you bolt hunters I only have one thing to say, you'll all say it only takes one, but if you want the whole herd it takes a few more.

[SeanD]

Steelie Ben,
I most people are concernted with recoil, guess i just assumed. I have seen quite a few people shoot their rifles, and it was obvious they were afraid of them. Even if sometimes they dont like to admit it :grin: Im not particularly recoil sensative myself, i used to be though. I had a flinch problem with my old 7 rem mag and 300 win mag. Then i started using ear plugs AND ear muffs, no more problem. Turns out it was the noise, not the recoil :shocked:

If you have a setup where you can do wome handloading, thats great! A 300 mag is fine for deer, overkill doesnt really exist. As far as ruining meat, the reason the high velocity rounds do that is the bullet expands much quicker and someitmes fragments. If you choose the high velocity cartridge, id recommend loading some contolled expansion bullets. Standard factory rounds in a 300 win mag will ruin meat on deer and lack penetration on elk. But if you can handload some premium bullets, you wont have this problem.

My pick of the 30 caliber magnums if i had to have one again would be a 300 win mag over the 300 WSM, and defininatly over the 300 ultra mag. I dont see any advantage to the short mag, besides they are the "newest thing". The 300 win mag is a great round, and you are likely to find a nice used one for a great price if money is a concern.

But still, its hard to beat a 30-06...

[Flatfish]

The faltter shooting theory of a magnum is overplayed.

If you use your rifle enough to apply it at ranges where a magnums flatter trajectory is helpful, you have learned it's trajectory( and with any luck at all, it's wind drift). I did my best shooting with a 30-06. At the time, I had no idea of what I was accomplishing. But I had that gun, a keg of powder, and a bunch of Noslers. I learned how to shoot. I learned that guns trajectory. I could hit at very long range better with it than a flat shooting magnum. Why? Because I never shot a flat shooting magnum in practice.

The speed does indeed help us with wind drift( which should be a much bigger concern than holdover in the field, since nobody has yet perfected the laser windfinder).

Speed is a good thing. But everyone has to find their balance of speed( recoil) and precision.

I will bet on a well placed small bullet( so long as it is a partition) against a big fast poorly placed slug every time.

Mark and the .270 is small, fast, flat, and easy on shooters, yet I have never owned one dog.

[Fish Hawg]

If you want a magnum gun go with the 300 ultra mag. My dad had a custom 300 ultra mag built in 1998 with a stainless Snyder barrel with the muzzle brake machined on. That was a mistake :blush: , way to loud so he had his gunsmith cut it off and machined a target crown on it. With that gun you can cover a three shot group @ 100yrds with a penny. He likes that gun a lot better than his mark v 300 weatherby deluxe. Two years ago I bought a 300 rem ultra mag. In a model 700 sendero sf and it is my favorite gun so far . It also shoots a three shot group, @ 100yrds that you can cover with a penny. Both guns shoot factory ammo for now . The only thing I did to my gun was lighten the trigger to 3-3 ½ pounds. I would not recommend a Muzzle Brake. Just My $0.02

[salmurai]

SB, this could go on forever. Whatever you get, just be sure to get comfortable with it. Practice, practice, practice. Make sure it shoots. (has reasonable hunting accuracy. Buying used, one never knows for sure.)Make sure it is adequate for the job at hand. Know its limitations and know your limitations and never exceed either one. Know where to "hold". The critter will appreciate it. Good Luck. It is always so exciting to go hunting for a new or "new to me" gun.....

[dla]

Steelie Ben: salmurai and others have given some good advice. I strongly suggest that you give primary consideration to the importance of practice, and therefore the cost of ammo, and ignore the "magna-blaster" crowd.

If you reload you can chose nearly anything. If you don't, then you should look at the 30-06 and .308 - surplus ammo is available for both.

In my not-so-humble opinion, you should put at least 200 rounds through your rifle, not from a bench, before you take to the field with it. Learn to enjoy shooting from standing and sitting. Learn your limits. Find out the max distance you can put your shot into an 8" circle in 5 seconds. Do the same for 10 seconds.

There are many cases every year of somebody with a magna-blaster chasing wounded animals around - all because they didn't really understand how to shoot. Far too many guys buy one box of ammo, shoot half of it from a bench and think they're ready to hunt. These are the guys who discover the hard way that a magna-blaster won't drop an Elk with a shot to the butt.

[Stratocaster]

I use the 7mm rem. mag. But if i were to buy one today(new rifle) id opt for the .270 winchester. Very flat shooting and mild recoil. And less chance of destroying alot of meat if shot is off slightly as opposed to magnums. IMHO.

[Fish Hawg]

Speed kills. Dla Before you start saying things like

There are many cases every year of somebody with a magna-blaster chasing wounded animals around - all because they didn't really understand how to shoot. Far too many guys buy one box of ammo, shoot half of it from a bench and think they're ready to hunt. These are the guys who discover the hard way that a magna-blaster won't drop an Elk with a shot to the butt.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It sounds like your saying people with thier magnums dont know how to shoot, also do you think the guys with the smaller guns dont wound animals. and shoot hundureds of rounds every year. It does not mater what you shoot a 243- 600 nitro you need to know your gun. I shoot several boxs of 300 ultra mag form 300-500yards at milk jugs. and I know I can cleanly kill an elk that far, also that round has more than enough Ballistic energy to to do the job.

Set a 500gr 45cal cast bullet next to a 180gr 30 caliber. Imagine.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Funny thing is that 300 ultra mag (magna-blaster)
has more muzzle energy with a 320 grain lighter bullet than your 45-70 with a 500 grain bullet.
300 ultra = 4221 ft.lbs of muzzle energy
45-70 = 3598- 3209 ft. lbs of muzzle energy
I am not trying to pick any fights but when people direct comments towards other people they know nothing about...... its just not right. Just my $0.02

[Mr. Carp]

Quick Fisher is exactly right. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] dla, that big slug goes out 20 yards and falls on the ground. 300 Ultra Mags are great and you'll drop what ever you shoot at.

And you don't have hold it at a 45 degree angle and yell, "Fire in the Hole" when your canon shoots. The bullet does kill the animal, but it did because it fell from the sky and broke it's back. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[dla]

Quick Fisher: Exactly wrong about energy - couldn't be further from the truth. It's the size of the wound channel in a vital area that counts. Elk don't explode like a ground squirrel The 45/70 is guaranteed to make at least a .458" diameter hole and penetrate an Elk completely, whereas the .30cal wonder-blasters need to expand and not explode. And it never hurts to remember two things about hunting shots (1) most animals are taken at 150yds or less, east or west. (2) If you make a bad hit at 400yds on an Elk you just gave the animal a 1/4 mile head start and who knows how long it will take you to get to the hit spot to start to track.

And it never hurts to consider getting closer or passing on a shot. Tag soup is better than another rotting Elk nobody could locate.

And I'm sorry if you're sensitive to something I said about wounding animals because of inadequate practice. I felt it necessary to point out the truth to the fellow asking the original question.

Mr. Carp: I'll agree that launching a 500gr bullet out of a 45/70 is sortof like artillery. But it has it's advantages. You shoot, lower your rifle, bring up your binocular and watch the bullet hit :smile: If you stand to the side at the range it looks like an American Airlines flight taking off and crashing

[SeanD]

Well said dla!

[shawn2010]

Dla, why don't you step from the 45/70 to the .50 bmg, then you will have a .5 cal, shooting flat, best of both worlds now you will be able to makes thoses long shots that you couldn't do with your 45/70. seriously the 300 ultra mag can and will put an elk down from 500yrs just as fast as the 45/70 at 100 yrs, its all about placement.

[ScottD]

If I were in the market for a new deer/elk rifle I would be looking real hard at one chambered in .338 WM. There is no such thing as "overkill". Dead is dead. If you're concerned about destroying too much meat due to using a magnum, just use premium bullets; I would suggest using Barnes X bullets.

My second choice would be a .300 WM. (My two big game rifles are .300WM.) A 165 gr Barnes bullet is a very flat shooting bullet and will not blow-up if you happen to get a real close shot. A lot of people don't like Barnes bullet or can't get them to shoot in their rifles; if I was to shoot a lead bullet, I would make sure that it was a premium bullet and at least 180 grains.

Third choice would be the good ol 30-06. The .300WM doesn't really have much of an advantage over the 30-06 ballistically until you get way down range.

As far as the short magnums go..........they are good if you want a lightweight rifle. I personally don't like a lightweight rifle for long range shooting. I think they are harder to hold steady than a heavier rifle. If I wanted a lightweight rifle I would probably find one in .308.

[Fish Hawg]

dla, A rifle bullet kills an animal by destroying tissue, disrupting the function of vital organs or the central nervous system, causing blood loss, and mainly by shock to the animal's system. The latter can be almost instantly fatal, or almost completely lacking, depending on circumstances beyond the hunter's control. The more damage a bullet causes, the more likely it is to produce a quick kill.

Elk don't explode like a ground squirrel

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">You must not have ever seen what a 300 ultra mag hornady sst bullet does to the lung cavity of an elk,deer or a bear it will make you sick .

SST=.
In flight, the polymer tip shifts the bullet's center of gravity back, improving the ballistic coefficient for greater stability and accuracy.

2. The instant the bullet impacts your quarry the tip initiates rapid expansion, which is controlled by the jacket's inner grooves.

3. Almost immediately, the SST expands to the optimal diameter for terminal wounds. The cannelure and InterLock ring then halt expansion of the mushroomed lead core.

4. Designed to deliver rapid, controlled expansion, the SST transfers nearly all of its energy to your target, for greater knock-down killing power.

There is nothing wron with a 45-70 they are fun to shoot but; IMO they are limited to 100 yrds, the make a great brush gun. speed = ballistic shock, and that is what kills :grin: I dont want my bullet going through my animal, I want all of the Ballistic energy to be Transferred to the animal. If the bullet passes through the animal than the energy is not absorbed. now all of the energy is wasted. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] You can feel the ground shake when you miss with that 500 grain 45-70 :grin: :grin:

[Fish Hawg]

Also I agree 110% with you that shot placement is more important than speed or Ballistic energy.

[salmurai]

Quick Fisher, Don't be so sensitive. You and dla are on the same side. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] You said, "....you need to know your gun." He said, "Learn your limits." You are both coming from the same direction, just using different cartridges! You are apparently one who practices alot and has gotten to know your capabilities. dla is correct in what he said about the "magnum blasters" chasing wounded game. What he failed to mention, as you did, is that there are others out there with standard calibers doing the same thing. What you are both trying to say is what I said. Practice and learn your limits. Now, Timeout for both of you.

[Fish Hawg]

sal, [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] :grin: case closed

[dla]

salmurai: Thanks for being the peace-maker here as I have a hard time keeping quiet when folks don't get the facts straight. And of course with that opening statement, there are few things I need (I just gotta :grin: ) to straighten out. Here are two points and a long-winded summary:

(1) The maximum distance of a 45-70 is based on the shooter, not the killing mechanics. The 45-70 will knock 1/2" hole clean through an Elk out past 300yds. Whether or not the shooter can make a hit under field conditions at that range is another subject. Quigley wannabes regularily shoot 1000yds at black-powder velocities, which is 60% of modern loadings. I would say the maximum practical point blank limit with modern loads is 200yds, based soley on bullet flight path.

(2) Read http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/wrong.html
This will help dispel the myth of "energy dump". Elastic tissue doesn't explode either. I kill Elk with my itty-bitty bow and arrow - ~60ft/lbs of energy. Makes a big, bloody mess. Lots of bleeding under the skin along the muscle around the entry/exit holes - just like a rifle. I'm sure not depositing much energy. How does the arrow kill? It makes a great big hole through important stuff. How does the old .458" dia 400-500gr slug from a 45-70 kill? Makes a great big hole through important stuff. How many ft/lbs of energy does it take to push an arrow through 2ft of Elk? ~60ft/lbs will do it. How much to push a 400-500gr .458" slug? Well I don't know the minimum, but my load has 1300ft/lbs at 300yds and it's about 85% of max.

Now I'm not going to suggest that the 45-70 is for everybody, because the recoil is fierce out of the Marlin Guide Gun (it makes the 7mmMag seem like a noisy .22LR). But the GG is the absolute best "packing gun" I've ever owned and the 45-70 is the most "fun" round I've played with. But unless you reload, the 45-70 is relatively expensive ($16/20 for high performance PMC).

I've packed around a levergun in 30-30, which was handy, easy to shoot and cheap but on the edge of my comfort for Elk. I used to lug around my scoped M70 .270W, very accurate and a fine rifle/cartridge for all critters in the lower 48, but its just not a "packing" rifle.

I'm at the stage in my hunting experience where I will pass on a "iffy" shot - regardless of the animal. "iffy" isn't just distance either. Filling my tag isn't all that important to me anymore. But that's just me now - I used to be much more competitive when I was younger.

I hope this has been a good discussion for those just starting out. There are many great cartridge/rifle combinations out there and it's near impossible for a fellow to get a rational idea of what to buy from the gun rags. And unlike handguns, where you can rent different models at a range and burn a box of ammo, long-guns are a hit or miss. I feel sad for the guy who buys the high-testosterone magna-blaster and (a)discovers that it scares the snot out of him every time he touches the trigger and (b) it breaks the bank everytime he buys ammo.

I blame much of the confusion on the various gun rag writers who portray Elk as armor plated and anything but the newest cartridge as "obsolete". But I understand that manufacturers have got to sell.

[buck1pro]

I personally use a 338 win mag with 250 grain bullets on the east side. I like the knock down power on the especially long shots at 400 to 500 yards. Ive had the gun 5 years and killed 4 bulls so far. The biggest key of any caliber you are comfortable with is handling and comfort of the gun. Along with that you need to be able judge distance and practice at those distances no matter what caliber you decide to use. It is not so much the caliber but being a good shot at all distances. Whaever you decide, practice, practice, practice...

[glowball]

You've been shooting a 7mm, if you like it stick with it. I love my 7mm and have killed a lot with it. Great all around caliber. There are a lot of good calibers out there that will all fit the bid, but ulitmately it comes down to what you have confidence in. When looking for a new gun look into the Tikka T3. A buddy just bought one and I'll have to say it is pretty sweet. He had Walmart(threw me off too) order it and I couldn't believe how cheap he got it. Good luck to you with your search.

[Steelie Ben]

Alright I think I have it narrowed down a bit. I did some shopping at Le' Ole' gun show and found that I can pick up a .300 wm for a fairly reasonable price, I also found sever '06's for about the same price. I think that I am going to purchase the .300 mag and put several hundred rounds through it before next hunting season. Thanks for all the advice, you really helped me out alot. Does anyone have a good link to a balistics chart that I could maybe gander at.
SB

[Firedog]

Here is a ballistics table on multiple guns, not the best table but it will give you an idea. If you are going to do a lot of shooting I would highly recomend reloading. Cheaper and also a lot of fun to go test loads. http://www.pacinfo.com/~dropinsator/chart4.htm

Here is a great website with a lot of opinions on guns. Acurate Arms Reloading Page

[ 11-23-2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: firedog ]

[SeanD]

dla and others...
this is the best i have read on terminal ballistics, long read, but VERY informative. Check out the pictures of the penetration tests at the end

http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/b.../wounding.html

[SeanD]

Ben, ballistic charts are just a guideline. Most reloading books have them, you need a couple reloading books anyway since you are gonna be reloading, right? You really have to get out and shoot your rifle at different ranges if you want to see where it hits, there are many variables...

Some good information here as well as some bad (and confusing)information. He does not need a 45-70 or one of the new beltless mags. He doesn’t need to be confused with ballistics (thanks for the good links though).

My thoughts:
I don’t see any reason to use a magnum for deer

A .270 Win is not an elk round, I shot two elk with my .270 Win and found it lacking (both died)

A 45-70 is not what he needs, although they do work well

The new beltless magnums haven’t been around long enough to know which one will survive and a 100fps or so velocity gain isn’t worth the extra ammunition cost

There is no such thing as a caliber that does all well

Velocity destroys meat, the ideal velocity at impact is 2300fps-2600fps

Nozler Partitions explode at high speed and turn into a half weight solid (and often kill quite well on thin-skinned game)


I own around 22 centerfire rifles from .223 to .416 Dakota and have over 35 years of hunting experience (15 in Alaska) as well as many years of competition shooting. The above is only my opinion but it's based on years of experience.

If I were to be starting over with one rifle it would be either a .308 Win or a .30-06. It’s better to own two rifles though, one in the .243-.308 range (short case) for deer and one in the .300-.338 magnum range for elk and moose. Preferably one that ammunition was available for. For Alaska I would go as high as a .375H&H.

The newer .260Rem looks interesting for a deer rifle but it is still two new to tell if it's going to be accepted.

[dla]

Keta: I agree with a lot of what you said, but:

(1) The .270 Winchester is a very good Elk zapper

(2) Guys just starting out can't afford a selection of rifles. A good bolt-action and scope will set a guy back $700. A cheesy Rem 710 in 30-06 can be had for $350 and will kill Elk just as dead.

A guy can do a lot of cheap and easy shooting if he sticks with the BiMart $10.99 Rem Ammo in .270, .308, 30-06 - or mail orders the Mil-surplus fodder.

I agree with Col Jeff Cooper that there's little to be gained by pushing the .30cal stuff faster with the "magnums".

dla,
A .270 will kill elk but doesn't have the bullet weight for deep penetration on long shots. I would rather see a .30ca 180gr or 200gr used on elk. If I were hunting on private land I would consider using a .270.

I did see an elk take 5 .30ca bullets ('06) in the neck and still run. The bullets didn't hit bone and were in about a 6" circle.

I shot a moose twice at abound 400 yards with my .300 Win and the 180gr bullets went clear through the moose. It took two steps and dropped.

This isn't a fair comparison though, as moose tend to die easier than elk.

I wouldn't hesitate to use my .270 on sheep, deer or antelope.

In my .300 Win I would rather shoot a 200gr bullet a bit slower than the 180 and gain inertia and penetration.

[ 11-24-2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[santiamslayer]

I got a new 300 WSM this year and love it. It is a very flat shooting gun. I killed a buck at near 500 yards. Ammo is expensive though.

[Flatfish]

Keta,

the .270 is enough gun for elk. But you have to pick your bullets very carefully. Fail Safes and barnes Xs make the cut. The rest are fine deer killers. The 30-06 with 165 or 180 Xs is real good medicine. My .338 is almost obsolete.

Quick Fisher,

What does an elk's shoulder look like when a SST runs into it at high speed? Are the ultra mag elk any deader than a 30-06/ 180 Partition elk?
Do you get reliable exit wounds (Those who hunt the West side understand how necessary blood trails are. Blood trails are from exit wounds)?

Rifleman will always impress me.

Mark and the 40X dog.

Flatfish,
The better bullets do help but I'd rather hit an elk with 180 grains or heavier, much better penetration.
I like to shoot Swift A Frames.

[TonTo]

Dead Is Dead,but this post dosn't look like it's gonna die so I guess I'll take a shot at it.
Shot placement is the key as said many times before,get something you're comfotable with and spend some range time.Myself I shoot a 7mm rem. mag,flat shooting and not too punishing,but have killed more deer with the first rifle I ever owned an old .303 britt,a bit on the slow side but it gets the job done my dad killed many elk with it in the 60's before he gave it to me.Other fine choices in the .270-30/06 class I'ld like to spit out there would be a .280 rem. (my brothers choice and quite comparable to the 7mm rem)or a 25/06 flat shooting and very capable,my sis in law took a rag horn a few years ago with one,one well placed shot to the head.

[shawn2010]

Every one has there own opinion on caliber prefernce, according to the Washington fish and game a .243 is enought to do the job on an elk, but hey why would you want to do that. Many people want a gun that can take out an elk and also not to big for a deer. Why do some many people dislike the ultra mags, they kill don't they, they can send out a 220 grain to a 100 grain bullet, but my dad loves his 7mm which he bought back in the in the late 60's. If one was to reload, I think the 300 ultra would be the caliber or choise, thats just my opinion, and man, I am suprised know one is talking about the 7mm, which has been around for a while now and it is a great all around rifle, So I wouldn't a person buy a caliber which would be right for elk and deer, and put a good scope on it. for a rem model 700 and a VIII you are looking around $900-1300, so why would you want to buy a .243 and a 300 or /06. Unless you have the funds to do so?

[ 11-25-2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: shawn2010 ]

[#1 Okie]

I have hunted for several years now and have settled on 2 guns for big game. A 270 win for deer sized game and smaller, and a 338win for most anything larger than deer. I agree with those that say you can't over kill an animal. I have shot several animals with several calibers but i think all honest hunters know that shot placement and a caliber confortable to you that you shoot well is the personal ticket. They all work if you shoot them well. That is why there are so calibers because everyone's confort zone and preference is different. It's the ford and chevy thing. All the hype on new calibers and short mag versus standard are all about money and sales. Find one that works for you and your set for life. Many big animals are killed with 243 classed calibers. Many deer are killed with 338+ calibers. All it boils down to is what you shoot well and have confidence in.