Is this fair?

11-07-2005, 05:12 PM

Here is the scenario.....
Fly shop A is a big force in NW fly fishing scene with an extensive mail order business and three stores in major NW cities.
They carry all the big name brands including Winston, Sage, Rio, Simms, Cortland,Ross,Hardy and so on.
Fly shop B opens a store about 10 or so miles away from shop A. Shop A has used it's considerable influence with these major fly tackle reps to block shop B from being a dealer of all those products mentioned earlier in the thread.
Doesn't this sound like a violation of the anti-trust laws?
The two fly shops in Maupin both carry the major brands and they are just a few blocks away and there seems to be no conflict there

There are also two other fly shops in this major NW city that also carry the major products that shop A won't allow shop B to carry.
Now I'm sure that most of you can figure out who I am talking about here and if you know then please do not post or hint about the actual names here....please :grin:
So with those facts in hand do you think it's fair for shop A to do this to shop B?
Thanks,
Shane Stewart

Mugs · 11-07-2005, 07:19 PM

Seems to me the major brands can sell to whomever they want to. Why is your beef not with them?

PittsburghD · 11-07-2005, 08:03 PM

Stew, my advice ,as always, is to go with the folks you like and love for their service. Pay the extra 5 bucks to support your favorites. If they switch it up and get nasty or wierd then it is fair game and you might as well seek out the best price wherever. It is their choice from the beginning to do their customers wrong and you can follow your instincts. Support commerce and free enterprise.

--D :grin:

11-07-2005, 08:41 PM

The manufacturers are not so much a factor in this as their reps are the ones who make the decision on who they sell to. Whether it's legal or not is not necessarily the point is it?

Pitts D - All of the items are not subject to mark up or price reductions except close out or discontinued items. This means the retailers must sell the item at the price set by the manufacturer. So if I wanted to buy a Winston rod I would not be able to do it at my preferred shop.
It's a pretty crappy way for shop A to operate in my opinion

and it's doubtful they could get away with this practice in the other big NW city where they have retail outlets.

Splash · 11-08-2005, 04:10 AM

This is a common occurance thru-out many differen't types of businesses and industries. American free market/free enterprise.

If you don't like shop A then go somewhere else. Just like changing the channel on the TV.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I do not share yours on this occasion. I am not trying to start an arguement, just sharing my own opinion.

Ain't America great?

You signed your name so you might as well have named the shops. Shop A has been very good to me thru the years as have almost all shops I have been to.

PittsburghD · 11-08-2005, 06:59 AM

What about the online or catalog option? Use who you want when you want? If shop A doesn't carry it and you don't want to go to shop B, why not try online shop C? There is plenty of options out there. My big thing is Orvis. One store in L.O. was here and gone. Now I am stuck to mucho travel to a store in Bend or using the catalog/online option. Best service ever for warranty rod repair/replacement. More thoughts for you.

--D

cphatts · 11-08-2005, 07:51 AM

I don't blame Shop A nor the manufacturer....business is business. I am guessing that Shop A drives enough revenue for the manufacturer such that they are extremely loyal to Shop A. If they didnt bring in the money....they probably would lose their exclusivity (or semi-exclusivity) in this NW city. Is this whats best for the consumer?.....probably not, but this is probably what is best for the manufacturer. Think about it from their point of view. Would you jeopardize your high sales voulme with Shop A to sell your product in Shop B, when Shop B may not sell the voulme of Shop A, or may be more loyal to a competitors product?

I know which specific manufacturers and shops you are talking about and it does suck....as I have had to make some purchases at Shop A when I would have liked to give them to Shop B. But from a purely business point of view, I cant really say I blame them for making that business decision.

3riversBob · 11-08-2005, 08:09 AM

OK....I have to go with Stew on this one. If I wanted to open a shop and sell Brand X because that is what my customers want and I can't get it due to Shop "A" being in tight with the 'Reps' That just plain isn't FAIR. Maybe shop "B" will have to sell it for more because of overhead but they should have the option. And I as a consumer should have the option to pay more at shop "B" because they offer me good service. I'm not sure it is a violation of the anti-trust but it doesn't sound like fair business to me. My humble .02.

Bob

Mark Vickers · 11-08-2005, 09:55 AM

This practice is nothing new. (Bob, your employeer does the same thing to many retailers.)

Companies can choose the retailers they want to represent their product. Generally, they choose those that have the right look and feel, can market their product the way they want it marketed, and can hold the market price at the level they want it at.

For instance, Gucci carefully chooses the retailers that carry their products. If they sold to Walmart (and more than likely Walmart would heavily discounted their goods) they would loose the market perception of being high class goods.

The rod companies listed above are more like Gucci than you probably want to admit.

3riversBob · 11-08-2005, 10:21 AM

The question though was "Is this fair?" No it is not fair! Is it common business practice? Yes it is. I understand and agree that it is. I as a consumer however would like to have the option to buy say a Sage rod from the guy at the corner shop vs the 'big guy chain'.

Bob

blazerman · 11-08-2005, 10:37 AM

I agree it's bad practice, but I don't think it's illegal in anyway. All we can really do about it is right letters to, and stop buying products from those manufacturers. Shop A is never going to go to the reps and say, "Oh, we don't care if you start selling to shop B" It's really the manufacturers/distributors faults. Do they really think shop A is going to stop selling their goods because they start selling to shop B? I don't think so, as shop A has spent years building brand loyalty within it's customer base, and would probably go under if they couldn't provide their customers with those high priced brands. just my opinion though.

Ben - proud customer of shop B.

11-08-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

You signed your name so you might as well have named the shops. Shop A has been very good to me thru the years as have almost all shops I have been to.

It's an ifish rule that you have to sign your real name if complaining about a business...read the AUP

nookslayer · 11-09-2005, 07:03 AM

Stew, I agree that it is unfair, but being a rep in a different industry myself it is all to common. I know which shops you are referring to and I have to admit that I do shop at A from time to time, but the majority of my business and my patronage goes to B. B also happens to carry my favorite manufactuer(s) and is a lot more personable. While I agree with the agruement and wish it could be different I understand the reps need to protect his major account. I just don't understand why A is so threatened by B to flex its muscle so much.

frankenfish · 11-09-2005, 07:37 AM

It is unfair. It goes against free trade. I see it in the medical industry all the time. I can't get flu shots for my office but the big pharmacy chains get them easily. It seems to me that doctor's offices should be a priority over grocery stores and pharmacies!

It is so unfair that I buy only what I must at shop A and patronize shop B for everything else. In the long run it will cost Shop A business and the loyalty of customers. Also, we should call or write to those manufacturers and reps to complain about the practices.

That said, fly shops are having a tough time with all the big stores and online options. Realizing this, I have stopped purchasing at megastores and online and will pay extra at a fly shop. If we don't do that, fly shops will cease to exist.

Also, I like to support small businesses of all types when possible.

AndyK · 11-09-2005, 07:59 AM

This practice is not just limited to shops "A" and "B".

One of my favorite shops "C"(on the eastside)has the same problem as shop B; there is another shop "D" within a short distance that has all the "name" brands. I tried to buy a Loomis rod from C shop last spring and they couldn't get it because of the other shop. So I bought the rod at shop B which was a long drive for me.

I know what products shop C carries and that shop gets all my business when I want those brands. I don't shop D at all.

reeldick · 11-09-2005, 08:11 AM

Life isn't fair but this is a common practice in many retail situations.

Sauk · 11-09-2005, 08:48 AM

I might be the minority here but I tend to think it's at least 'borderline' fair. It provides some stability to these shops which has been declining thanks to online shopping options. I think if shop A was there first, it's fair. Part of putting Sage (etc) rods in shop A probably comes with a written or verbal agreement that if someone opens a shop close to shop A, Sage agrees not to let shop B carry their rods.

It's like buying a franchised fast food restaurant. If I were to buy a McDonalds, some of the cost that I'm paying for their name is for an agreement with the parent company that they won't ever let another fella' put a McDonalds across the street from mine. While there's no direct cost of carrying the Sage rods, Sage clearly benefits from that choice so they're willing to do what they can in the beginning to help influence shop A to carry their rods (with this little protectionary agreement).

If shop B was there first however, that would be totally unfair in my opinion.

KillerDave · 11-09-2005, 10:06 AM

Selling fishing rods is a tough way to put food on the table. While they're easy to sell, it's really hard to make any money doing it.

Fly Shop B want's to undersell the competition by heavily discounting the MSRP of it's fly rod stock.

Fly Shop A want's to sell fly rods for a consistent price so it's regular customers don't feel ripped off.

Both sides are right.

However, there is no long term business future in Fly Shop B's approach and as a consequence, they get the axe.

Not saying I like it, but that's capitalism.

11-09-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Fly Shop B want's to undersell the competition by heavily discounting the MSRP of it's fly rod stock

Not true! Shop B sells at prices the manufacturer sets when required to do so. Shop B makes most of it's money with a massive inventory of fly tying material

KillerDave · 11-09-2005, 11:58 AM

I've heard it differently from a variety of sources Stew.

They sell the rods at cost to get people in the door, then make it up on the fly tying stuff. This is pretty close to what you just said yourself.

Again, not saying I disagree with the practice but then here's where things end up.

11-09-2005, 12:06 PM

I know the situation well at that shop and the owner does not do that to get people in the door.
If he were allowed to sell the name brands like Sage etc. he would sell at the prices they set. He sells a lot of tying material because he stocks almost everything you can imagine for tying.
I think what an earlier poster said was true. Shop A probably has some sort of agreement with Sage or whoever to not allow their product within a certain distance from their shop.

dickdocduck · 11-09-2005, 01:03 PM

You know, if you don't like shop A, you can always buy off the web.

KillerDave · 11-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Admittedly, I don't personally know the owner of fly shop "B" like you do but I've been in his shop and he's a very nice guy. Two thumbs up, no doubt.

If I was going to buy a rod tomorrow, I'd probably go to shop "B." But, I have no interest in paying the premium price for a premium fly rod so I�m not going to shop �A� for a fly rod either.

Look at it this way, it could be a blessing in disguise. I had a friend who owned a small tackle shop and made all his profit selling the smaller items that carried a decent profit margin. When he tried to expand into rods & reels, he went under.

I�m with Mugs on this. Write directly to the manufacturers and ask them why this practice holds.

Finally, he could always buy some used premium brand fly rods and reels off Ebay and sell them, rent them or let people cast them to help make up their minds. There�s no law against this.

PittsburghD · 11-09-2005, 06:59 PM

To continue beating the horse, I think Frankenberry you bring up a great point, pay the extra buck to keep hoep alive in the mom and pop stores. Otherwise they will all go away over time to the Megafly stores. I treat small stores like the wineries of old. Walk in the door, talk shop and where to go, what to fish with and then buy the product they recommend to fish with as a thank you for their service and expertise.

--D

P.S. Keep buying and and boost the economy.

LurkerDave · 11-09-2005, 09:07 PM

Not saying I agree with this but I am a fan of said fly shop 'A' because I've gotten really good service there. But I do know they carry considerable clout and when they do get P.O.ed at a manufacturer for selling to a nearby competitor they may have a tizzy and "close out" a name brand (oh, maybe Scott rods, just for example) at considerable discount :grin: Then after things cool back down and everybody kisses and makes up, they have the brand again and you got a great deal on a new rod with a life time warranty and quality local service (IMHO). Of course that does the start up shop even less good.

Riverkeeper · 11-10-2005, 04:10 PM

The charm of shop B is that it doesn't have the same old rack of XP's for $800 bucks and the signature SAGE fly fishing earmuffs for $79. But they have lots of cool rods and other gear, and you never know what you're going to find when you go in there, and seeing what kind of deal you can work out with Don is half the fun. That seems like a good niche to me, and I imagine they have a pretty devoted following because of it. What's the problem?

Slow and Low · 11-11-2005, 02:25 PM

I am a rep for an auto manufacturer and this is pretty standard stuff. Dealer A has a market area as set with the manufacturer. Dealer B is in that market area and therefore not eligible for the franchise. Same reason there is no Ford dealer in Wilsonville. No reason the dealer is going to allow someone else his franchise in his market...why would he.

Too bad for dealer B, that's all.

No offense intended.