poached?

[gotfish76]

If you found 2 buck carcasses, no hide, heads with antlers sawed off, and only back-strap and rear quarters gone, what would you think? I've been hunting this season dawn to dark almost every day, I have not yet seen a buck. So today I'm already at my wits end with the whole thing, then I find this, thanks to the crows. There was more meat left on the bones, then was actually taken. I hunt for the meat, and to see this waste of meat disgusted me. The Alsea unit, for me, has been pretty discouraging. On the bright side, I have have seen lotsa elk. Hope tomorrow produces. Happy hunting

[Rip'N'Lips]

Gotfish-

Time to call the authorities. They can't look for the bad guys if they don't know a crime was committed...

Rip'N'Lips

[Pan Fry]

sick and wrong

[waterfowlin101]

[Lucky one]

Doesn't matter if they were poached or not, don't you have to haul out all the usable meat anyway?

[Rank Amateur]

Well, if you are breaking the law, you do just what you want. The only hope is that they will brag to somebody who will smell rat and when the cops show up, guess what- no meat!

[sturgeon1]

PM sent

[StevenB]

Hey tell the State Game Police. I have hunted the Alsea for deer and elk. Those animals are real small. (t's only one of 4 units I've taken an elk in so what do I know)

The one spike I took a few years ago had about 80 lb's of boned out packaged meat. In saddle Mt,before the 3 point rule,I never had a spike with less than 140 lb's of boned out packaged meat.

A 4 year old buck had only 40 lbs of meat. Still I had a great time hunting in Alsea and I hope to return. The buck to doe ratio is real high.

Try the area near the rest stop on the south side of the main road !!! I had doe tags in Alse unit and took buck from there more often than does??? Twice I took deer while walking on the roads. I guess I am a road hunter.

SB

[rimrock]

If it were a cougar would everyone be just as upset…something to think about if we are going to preach the law here.

[Rank Amateur]

What? If it was a cougar, at least we would understand it was part of nature, not human nature! Whats this preaching the law thing, doesn't everybody follow the law or at least try too? That's why I get upset!

[rimrock]

Remember “Guess what we found” thread???

[traks44]

Saddly enough it happens probably alot more than we would all like to admit. The odds of the game wardens tracking them down are slim to none. :depressed:

[Hunt'nFish]

Rimrock,
No real differance, except RankAm is right...we are sportsman and want'n waste is just plain wrong AND illegal. Not to mention lazy. We owe it to the game to use every bit. Lots of tasty jerky meat left on it. I smell rat, sure looks suspicious but if it isn't reported, nothing will come of it.
Hunt'nFish

[Amahnee]

Ya got me thinkin on that one Rimrock. I actually had to force myself to think rather than react.

Now that I thought about it, those guy's were wasteful, lazy, and selfish. And probably way outta shape to be able to carry two more front quarters apiece.

I despise waste.

[ehunter]

Wanton waste but at least with a cougar we can shoot them but there are no poacher tags yet maybe in the 2006 regs Ok I am kidding but not sure how any one could compare the two.
Another reason to tell the State is some times they get a better picture the area and problem. Information is power. We called them a couple of years ago about some 2 elk that had poached all that was taken was one back ham and the back straps. We were told that we the third phone call them and they had a lead.

[Swamp Puppy]

maybe it would have been better for them to take the whole animal home and then throw away the parts they didn't want from there......

[rimrock]

I agree waste is wrong even if the animals were taken by legal tag holders per se, or as suggested in the title of this thread they may have been poached.

The point I’m getting at is we MUST be sportsman at all times. This means anything illegal must never be supported. Equally sickening at least for me is the attitude of “shoot, shovel and shut-up” as it pertains to cougars (see other thread). I find it very inconsistent that one time the majority of people are against an illegal action and then another time are supportive of an illegal action. No matter what someone may self-proclaim if you fall into this category you’re NOT an ethical hunter, nor are you a sportsman.

IMO a significant number of people here have fallen into this category. It is my hope they change this self-deception for you only loose your creditability as an ethical hunter. Illegal is illegal be it waste or poaching in all its forms.

I expected it wasn’t going to be long until this inconsistently showed up again. I just want people to think about what they do or support. Like has been said “a poacher is a poacher” which is equally sad as wanton waste.

I hope people realize I’m meaning this post solely as an encouragement; a “part-time” or “most of the time” ethical hunter is in reality an unethical hunter period.

[Swamp Puppy]

[Hunt'nFish]

Ok Rimrock now I see where you coming from. And I agree.


So the only solution for cougars & bears is for each of us to carry a valid tag and shoot every one we see. That's all we can do to help the ODFW folks meet their management #'s until cougars and bears are reduced to varmint status...non-game, no tag required by the ODFW.

Hunt'nFish

[wishin]

Rimrock - I thought you lost it with your first post on this thread, and I was ready to flame away. With this post I see what you are getting at, and I agree. Same "slippery slope" applies in many areas of life. Also a good lesson for me in reading a post twice before responding.

Thanks,
wishin

[rimrock]

0

[Rank Amateur]

I agree rimrock that is a good point, but we must also consider calling the kettle black syndrome that some people like to throw around.

The cougar situation is no excuse to break the game laws, but with that being said, I think most of the sportsmen in this state realize that they are being bent over the stump in regards to cougars eating the very game animals that they pay good money to support management for. It is popular to fight back and I would think that 50% of it is bravado.

Back to calling the kettle black, so if any of us break the speed limit does it mean we shouldn't call the kettle black? I really would like to meet this person. I guess where we draw the line really defines a person.

[ehunter]

To me my respect for hunters who hunt ethicaly and follow the rules is huge it is harder to harvest a animal ethicaly then to break the rules. I think any one can make a mistake and as long as we learn from them and move on then we can hold our heads up. It would be so much easier to break the rules and bag a animal. The older we get and the more experienced we get I hope the hunt means more to us than just killing a animal. I am always more impressed with some one who passed a shot that was iffy than the guy who makes the lucky kill . I always come a way from a conversation with some who did the ethical thing, hoping that I can use that same judgment in my next situation.

I have made the comment in the past with people about shooting and shoveling. Of course I have a cougar tag in my pocket and I said it more out of frustration. I could never really do that. But I should not even say it so I think I have learned a lesson.

[Pond]

The number to call is 1-800-452-7888 the TIP line. Give them your info and they will forward it to OSP office responsible for that area. You would be amazed at some of the cases they make (or don't). Might even get a reward if an arrest is made.

Sawing off antlers and taking backstraps...hummm

Pond

[gotfish76]

I read the posts you all gave, and I gave the OSP a call. I did have the gps coordinates to the location. I just thought you couldn't do anything, because I didnt see anyone there. But like suggested, OSP can't do anything if they dont know. By the way a buddy of mine from work, his son shot a 4 point with eye gaurds in the general area this morning. Thanks ..Brian

[bigtools]

I think that happens alot over there if caught should be hung to dry

[Chesapeake]

Just a thought on reporting this kinda thing to the game cops.

True with only your info they probably couldnt make a case but think of it this way:

Say someone reports that a guy is braggin up a buck he poached in a given area. The game cops look up the guy and he has tagged horns he claims are legal but no meat, claims he gave it away. Now they have suspicion of a crime but no real evidence. Then you call in a found wasted carcase and they are able to link it to his horns. All of a sudden they have a solid case.

I know it sounds a little CSI but possible none the less.

Just shows that any little bit of info of illegal activity could be the difference.

[Ni!]

rimrock,

I thought hunting cougars with the use of dogs was illegal. What am I missing here?

Ni!

[TonTo]

I thought hunting cougars with the use of dogs was illegal. What am I missing here?

That raises a good question,I used to be a hound hunter,untill WA did away with the cougar/bobcat/bear,I no longer own a hound,but have a yellow lab,I have often wonder'd if I could legaly take a bear/cougar/bobcat while hunting grouse with my lab ....now along the same lines I once had a plott hound that would retrieve,and my last hound(a plott/black-n-tan cross)never hunted(early retirement),but was the chicken coop guard dog,and would help me catch chickens that escaped(never biting them,but would sniff em out and pin em to the ground in the tall grass),so what if I was to use a hound to grouse hunt(better nose than my lab),then take an incidental bear/cat?

sorry I guess I may be a high jacker as well

[Ni!]

Page 48 of the 2005 regulations says, "No person shall use dogs for the taking or pursuit of cougar."

If your dog jumps a cougar and you shoot it (or shoot at it), you have used a dog for the taking and pursuit of cougar (or attempted taking). It doesn't matter if you were intending to use a dog for that purpose or not. If they allowed an intent exemption, that would open up a loophole a mile wide.

If I shot a lion that my bird dog jumped up, I would keep it to myself. I certainly wouldn't mention it on a public forum such as this, since it seems to me like a clear violation of the law.

Ni!

[gottafish]

I dont belive that is correct Ni. Its unlawful to persue cougers with dogs. he was leagle. Why stir the pot??

[Ni!]

I don't think I am wrong. The language is pretty clear to me.

Nevertheless, I'll let the issue go. It just rubbed me the wrong way is all.

Ni!

[TonTo]

I wasn't serious about hunting grouse with a hound,although I do believe I could teach a hound to point/retrieve.On that same line though I also believe it would be easier to train a lab to run a cat.The point to my earlier post is the same as what NI was getting at,the law spells it out that you can not use a dog to take a cougar.Wouldn't it be the same as taking a deer that was jumped up by a bird dog,"I may not have been deer hunting,but had a tag when my bird dog jumped a buck"? I don't mean to stir anything up but there are some gray areas in the law if you leave it to personal interpretation." I was just out running coyote with my hounds when I happened along this cougar just sitting in a tree ,I mean I wasn't cat hunting honest"
Ethics are ethics and the law is the law,and some times they do clash.That being said,if I happened along a big kitty while I was bird hunting with a dog,I probably would take it,but am I right to do so?(btw I don't carry a shovle when I hunt)

[gottafish]

Yep I don't think any law officer would give you a ticket for that.

[FishTech101]

I hope they catch the people who wasted that deer. Saw a picture at Broken Arrow archery shop of a 5x5 bull with only the backstrap takin out, from the picture looked like an archery hunter.
With the cougar and dog issue if the OSP says "if you dont have a tag for cougar shoot it go to town and buy a tag and tag it", why would it be illegal if a dog on the off chance jumped a cat be illegal. Not like he was cutting track and said oh looks like a bunch of grouse or chukar will be down here. Just like the guy driving down a skid road and a deer runs across the road stops and looks at you long enough to get out and shoot is that hunting from a motorized vehicle.
One more thing if you want to be totally legal at killing a deer it is ILLEGAL to kill one in Oregon. Cannot shoot while a deer is eating, bedded, or drinking water. Also if it is going from bed to water or food, food to water,or beack to its bed. Isnt that what deer do.

[rimrock]

I see your point Ni and technically you may be right. I wonder if intent would play into the interpretation. As in my case my dog isn’t cougar hunting at all we were out bird hunting. We were walking along and a cougar came up, my attempts to shoot it were based on the opportunity of the chance encounter.

A chukar hunter with a vest of birds carrying a box and a half of 20-gauge 7.5 birdshot save two slugs in his back pocket isn’t intending in anyway to target a cougar. On a technicality in the regulations sure, but I know law enforcement has just as much to do with intent as the letter of the rule itself. I wouldn’t have any problem addressing this with any officer and if I had harvested the cougar I would have told ODFW exactly how I got it without reservation.

It’s an interesting question however.

[ehunter]

Ni food for thought Timber compainies hire hound hunters for Bear all the time. There is a loop hole that allows that for protection of tree's but not humans. Who has the clout in this state.

[Ni!]

That's all done with a permit. They even snare bears around bait stations on timber lands. You can also get a permit for running a cougar with hounds if you can prove (or even allege) livestock depredation. The point I was making was one of ethics, since rimrock has been talking a lot about that lately in rather absolute terms.

But I said I would leave this alone, so I will.

Ni!

[rimrock]

Ethics have everything to do with intent not perfection – thus the story I shared regarding the duck hunter. If I ever, not likely, harvest a cougar while chukar hunting and I happen to have my dog with me I’ll be open and direct as I have been here with any law enforcement because you must check the cougars in.

How this is similar to the mentality of some hunters here being upset on poaching a deer/elk and then the same hunters with the shoot, shovel and shut-up mentality regarding a cougar, I admit evades me. One has a clear intent to do something illegal and the other doesn’t.

In fact I’m going to call ODFW now and get a clarification, if you want to make it a letter of law point.

[bassfisher04]

this kind of thing gives us hunters a bad name. We should just shoot the people that do this.

[ehunter]

Another rumor did any one hear of 2 bulls recently poached during deer season either in Scappose or Saddle Mt some told me he had heard that 2 bulls were shot near Mist?????

[rimrock]

Well it took awhile for the law enforcement officer to understand the bizarreness of the question and situation I was posing, but I did get clarification.

There is nothing illegal about taking a cougar while chukar hunting. It all went to intent. To paraphrase a little: He mentioned there is a pretty big difference between the typical use of dogs for predator hunting and the solo birddog foot hunter. He wondered why it was even a concern. He did mention having a legal tag, quotes not being filled, during an open season, proper check-in and these related issues. He said they have no concern with chukar hunters walking around with shotguns as it relates to an illegal use of dogs – this is not the point of the restriction. He said if it were no one could even hunt chukar with a dog since the mere fact of the dogs presence could be stretched to a potential pursuit/harassment situation if the letter of the law was followed. There is nothing similar at all to how dogs are used in these hunting situations we went on. I asked if he felt this was a “loop-hole” he again went back to intent and the point of the restriction regarding the former style of hunting. Also basically a quote, “We’re not stupid despite what people think we can figure out what people are doing.”

Now if I had asked him about the “shoot, shovel and shut-up” mentality this I’d imagine would have been an issue for him. I guess you think it’s similar Ni, not sure why things keep rubbing you the wrong way.

You may want to pause to see the inconsistency and even the hypocrisy I and others pointed out regarding berating poaching of deer/elk and praising of poaching cougar – if you can’t see this point you’re getting rubbing the wrong way for nothing. Not much I can do about that.

Granted much of it is most likely bravado, but it’s not good for the sport’s future to endorse illegal behavior.

[Ni!]

From your description of the officer's comments, I doubt if he had a full understanding of the conversation we've been having. If your dog jumps up a cougar, I don't see how that's any different, in a strictly legal sense, than having him jump up a buck from a patch of brush, as TonTo mentioned. You wouldn't shoot a deer in that situation, would you?

You may want to pause to see the inconsistency and even the hypocrisy I and others pointed out regarding berating poaching of deer/elk and praising of poaching cougar – if you can’t see this point you’re getting rubbing the wrong way for nothing.

You and others may want to pause to consider the inconsistency in your equating deer and elk with cougars. I'm not aware of any ODFW proposals to reduce the deer and elk populations by nearly half using paid hunters. What would be done with all these cougars that are killed? Would their meat feed the homeless? I doubt it. If used at all, it would be probably be turned into dog food or rendered into fertilizer. How is this really different in a moral/ethical sense than a hunter shooting a cat and leaving it lay? One is done under the color of authority and the other not, but the result is the same, except on a much smaller scale. If our state game agency is proposing to decimate our cougar "herd" using paid mercenaries, then cougars clearly are not in the same category as deer and elk, which in many areas are holding on for dear life. If cougar were in the same situation as our blacktail are now, I would view them in a much different light.

Despite what you suggest, I've thought quite a bit about what you have been saying. If you'll go back and read my posts on the subject, I don't believe I've ever made an SSS-type comment, and I always have a cougar tag, so I wouldn't be inclined to do that anyway. But I think it is simplistic in the extreme to say that what's ethical for deer/elk hunting is therefore the standard for cougar just because they too are listed as a big game species. I can't see how any argument that equates the two groups is anything more than legalistic nitpicking, and that's the reason for my harping on your cougar story, as it appears to me (it still does) to be a real inconsistency.

Ni!

[rimrock]

Ni – I honestly don’t understand your reasoning. Maybe it wasn’t apparent from my last post but I went over my cougar encounter exactly as it happened and as I posted it here – no different. There was no illegal issue with the law enforcement officer – it was about intent. As before it’s not a loophole or as gray as you’re implying thus the officer’s comment about not being “stupid”. I wouldn’t think you feel he is stupid. Should we rely on Ni’s interpretation of the law, or rimrock’s, or the law enforcement at ODFW? That’s why I called to make sure I wasn’t doing anything illegal. What’s your issue now???

I’m not sure how my posts have been inconsistent. Because I thought you raised a good initial point I felt it prudent to discuss it with the actual people in authority since I’m not going to intentional do anything illegal – I could even lose my job since I work in the wildlife world if I brake a game law. Again now, I don’t know where you’re coming from???

This board makes comments like, “a poacher is a poacher” – which I agree with. Illegal harvest is illegal. So is it healthy for our sport if hunters begin to endorse the mentality of illegally harvesting deer/elk is bad, but the illegally harvest of predators is good. It would be the very definition of hypocrisy – we only speak out as “sportsman” against some illegal behavior. If this were true – THERE SHOULD NEVER BE ANOTHER POACHER THREAD ON THIS FORUM SINCE WE’RE NOT AGAINST ALL POACHING. Honestly you’re not making much sense. Isn’t it true a “poacher is a poacher”, why would you be defending the illegal taking of any game??? This is my point and I don’t know how to be clearer.

[ehunter]

Romrock so according to your conversation you could have shot the cat as it was happen stance your intent was not to cougar hunt but to bird hunt right . If you had a tag you would have been alright is that not what you said.

[Ni!]

I suspect the board is getting sick of this discussion, so I'll be brief.

1) No, I don't trust the interpretation of game cops on arcane issues. Ask three different game officers if you can use night vision to hunt coyotes and you'll probably get three different answers, and all three will probably be wrong to some extent.

2) I believe the law that bans hound hunting is absurd, and worthy of our disdain. I am not advocating the illegal killing of lions, but I certainly don't lose a wink of sleep over it. Not so for deer and elk, for the reasons I've already mentioned. As I said before, equating the two issues as equal is simplistic reasoning, and worthy of a counterargument. What grates on me is that every time someone complains about a deer or elk being poached, someone has to use it as a "teaching moment" and pipe up about our hypocrisy over lions. They're not remotely the same, and I don't like being mau-maued into pretending they are.

Ni!

[Ni!]

If you had a tag you would have been alright is that not what you said.

In his initial post he said he did have a tag. I don't see any reason to doubt that. My only question was with the dog "jumping" the cougar. That strikes me as a Get Out of Jail Free card the way the law is written.

Ni!

[rimrock]

Romrock so according to your conversation you could have shot the cat as it was happen stance your intent was not to cougar hunt but to bird hunt right

That's what I'm saying. "No person shall use dogs for the taking or pursuit of cougar." We talked about the word "use". Would I be using a dog for hunting cougar or I'm I in other words walking into a draw with my dog and a cougar comes up. One is "use" one isn't, that was his point. The mere presence of me or my dog, my location the dog's location isn't the point it's the "use".

If you had a tag you would have been alright is that not what you said.

You do need a tag, open season, quotes....