More Greed!

[RiverMan]

Well our old friend of the environment got his way again...now we are drilling for oil in a "national widlife refuge".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9913258

RM

[weekender]

hmm. I thought I clicked on the Ifish community link?

I read that whole article front to back three times and never found a reference to fishing? Strange.

I wonder what the good people of Alaska think about this? Or does that matter? Should it matter?

[Coastalfisherman]

IMO, anytime that we do not have to count on resources from overseas it is a good thing.

[2nd Gen.]

this seems like a good thing from my perspective.

Do you know how Gordon Smith voted?

[weekender]

I don’t disagree at all. If you can take the oil out of the ground without destroying what is above ground, then why wouldn't you?

Maybe Riverman is right and it is all about greed. BUT, I'm not so quick to blame it all on the government. You can point fingers and call people names until your blue in the face, but eventually you have to look back at yourself.

I commute 60 miles to work each day. I burn a tank of gas every four days in my car. On the weekends I like to go fishing and that small block in my sled isn’t exactly "fuel efficient". This morning when I fueled up at Costco I paid $2.34/gallon. I know one thing for sure, I would rather pay $2.34 a gallon than $3.34 or $4.34. Maybe that makes me just as guilty and just as greedy as those environmental terrorist in Washington…

[fish_on]

this seems like a good thing from my perspective.

[grsteelies]

Riverman, you must have more $$$ than the rest of us, because this gas crap at $3 a gallon is killing us. So what if there will be only 1 million caribou instead of two million?

[RiverMan]

We are drilling for oil in a "national wildlife refuge"...does that not set off a "red flag" somewhere? Perhaps we should also start logging YellowStone Park or the redwoods in California. The point being, if a "national widlife refuge isn't off limits to oil drilling, then where is?

During the Bush administration's first term, repeated attempts were made to open the refuge. But time after time, the American public rejected the idea. Congress has received hundreds of thousands of emails, faxes and phone calls from citizens opposed to drilling in the Arctic Refuge, an outpouring that has helped make the difference. And polls have consistently shown that a solid majority of Americans oppose drilling. So why is the administration pushing forward?

What would America gain by allowing heavy industry into the refuge? Very little. Oil from the refuge would hardly make a dent in our dependence on foreign imports -- leaving our economy and way of life just as exposed to wild swings in worldwide oil prices and supply as it is today. The truth is, we simply can't drill our way to energy independence.Do you really think opening up the ANWR will mean lower prices at the pump? Get real. The only thing we will lose is one of our last remaining pristine wilderness areas for the sake of greed.

Although drilling proponents often say there are 16 billion barrels of oil under the refuge's coastal plain, the U.S. Geological Service's estimate of the amount that could be recovered economically -- that is, the amount likely to be profitably extracted and sold -- represents less than a year's U.S. supply.

It would take 10 years for any Arctic Refuge oil to reach the market, and even when production peaks -- in the distant year of 2027 -- the refuge would produce a paltry 1 or 2 percent of Americans' daily consumption. Whatever oil the refuge might produce is simply irrelevant to the larger issue of meeting America's future energy needs.

http://www.nrdc.org/land/wilderness/arctic.asp

The USA is by far the largest consumer of oil in the world despite having a population that is far smaller than say China for example. Perhaps instead of looking for "more oil" in wildlife refuges we should look to "conservation, effeciency, and new technology".

RM

[roost4u]

Riverman, I'm sure there are other forums for you to discuss this with more people that feel as passionate about this issue as you.

This is a fishing forum.

[BCF]

Nice try RiverMan

The expression" It's like talking to a box of rocks" should give you comfort. Keep the faith.

BCF hears you.

BCF hears you

So does Stew
Remember the pendulum always swings both ways

[matttheduck]

well, the truth is that almost everywhere is off limits to oil drilling - at least in the usa. furthermore, the argument that is made about how long it will take to get the oil into the economy and how little is there is pure sophistry. that argument could have been made about every single oil find of the last 100 years. if we accept it we will never look anywhere for resources of our own.

we also heard the same enviromental gloom and doom about the alaska pipeline and none of it came true. at some point you wonder just how gullible people are to have the same knee-jerk reactions to the same tired arguments.

i doubt anyone would argue that the us needs to become self-sufficient in energy. when it becomes economical to develop other sources, we will. to this point nothing comes close to the price and abundance of the energy sources we're currently using. one that could - nuclear - was stopped dead in its tracks by the same folks arguing against drilling in the anwar.

[Thumper]

Well our old friend of the environment got his way again...now we are drilling for oil in a "national widlife refuge".
RM

It's about time!

[Dip]

seeing how this thread is titled greed how do i get my 5% of all profits from this oil?

[Waterfish]

DRILL!

[OK Deal Let\'s Fish]

OKDEAL hears and agrees also.

[sandman]

DRILL!

Drill,Drill,Drill

[5-Cents]

We are drilling for oil in a "national wildlife refuge"...does that not set off a "red flag" somewhere?

it isnt our fault they put the oil there!

it isnt our fault they put the oil there!

Wow Shane that's is so profound

[5-Cents]

[Waterfish]

Shane, you are right on! Also, drilling for oil and pumping it out should make the enviros happy, because we are cleaning up all of that nasty oil out of the ground.

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

So the oil companies get to drill on our public land, take resources from that land and then sell it back to us for a profit. Boy that sounds like a good thing even though the impact on what we pay at the pump will be insignificant if any.

I am definately not a tree hugger. But I would prefer that they leave that area alone. Why not? Why can't we just leave that area alone. Drilling there is not going to solve our energy problems.

So what if there will be only 1 million caribou instead of two million?

I think that there are still native people that depend on Caribou for subsistence. They might care.

I really don't understand all of the Drill Drill Drill in a pristine part of our country on probably the biggest fishing forum on the internet.

Some snippets from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

Fishing
The fresh and marine waters of Arctic Refuge support at least 36 species of fish, and fishing provides an important subsistence resource to local residents. Visitors camping along or floating refuge rivers typically target Dolly Varden char and arctic grayling.

Hunting
Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is rich in wildlife, especially during the brief, productive summer months. It supports sport hunting by visitors as well as subsistence hunting by local rural residents. Gwitch'in Athabascan Indians and Inupiaq Eskimos depend on hunting caribou and many other species both for subsistence and to preserve their traditional cultures. Visitors are also attracted to the refuge to hunt, primarily for caribou, Dall sheep and grizzly bear.


I find it hard to believe that after reading so many rants about litter on the river. So many people are all for ruining such a beautiful unspoiled part of America.

Especially when all it will do is make a scratch in our energy issues. If even that. But it will make a big impact on the landscape of that beautiful piece of land. And accidents will happen. Oil will spill and polution will be created. Roads will need to be built. Minimal impact is a slim chance.

We have already decimated the once great herds of buffalo, dammed and polluted our rivers, logged our old growth forests, caused the extinction of thousands of species, overfished our oceans, etc.. etc...

Lets just leave this treasure alone. It is too valuable to tarnish further.

I am not an environmental activist. I support logging in our forests and many other revenue generating uses of our national resources. I just don't see that any benefit from drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge could outweigh the benefit of keeping that jewel the way it is.

[ampersat]

We don't have an "import habit" (as the article terms it), we've got a "gas habit". I suppose the sooner we drain it all the sooner we'll get down to solving the real problem.

It's a finite resource. When it's gone, it's gone. Might as well get it over with now; we'll be drilling it eventually anyway.

[lost_sailor]

We're not doing it yet, they just said "go ahead" - - is it possible to profit?

Dadgummit Gordon Smith. (At least he voted for the amendment to strike the ANWR provision from the bill ... but then voted for the bill anyway) Thank you Ron Wyden, good effort. (Note that Wyden amendment prohibits export of ANWR oil)

How many of you who are constantly deriding the "enviros" like to catch salmon in the Willamette River?

How many of you remember what the Willamette was like in the 60's before the "enviros" took action?

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

we'll be drilling it eventually anyway.

I know :depressed:

[8-guage]

There is definitely support here for your post Riverman.
The difference it will make isn't worth it in my estimation.
Tree Hugger,
8-gauge

[JustCallMeDave]

It's quite a quandry. If we don't drill it, they'll build a Wal-Mart there.

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

It's quite a quandry. If we don't drill it, they'll build a Wal-Mart there.

And they will use H1B visas to get thier employees.


I can't stress enough the need to leave the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge alone. This is not political for me. I voted for this administration. But they sure are making me mad with this maneuver.

I just can't understand how intelligent beings can not see the value of leaving this area alone.

I remember when I was a kid playing in a field. We would pick wild daisies and pluck the petals. The end result was always the same. No more petals and no more flower.

Today a kid is lucky to find a field to play in. I don't want America to wake up one day and realize that there are no more flowers. Every piece of wild area that we destroy is another lost petal from a flower that has few.

I say enough. We have to draw the line somewhere and finally stop destroying things that can't be replaced. Going down this path is similar to the thought process behind building the dams. Cheaper energy. Only this solution will not provide that benefit. Look at how mad we are about the dams and what they have done to the salmon. What are they going to think fifty years from now about how we drilled in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?

[Rank Amateur]

I wonder how long it will be before we see drilling rigs off our coast?

[Waterfish]

HeavyMetal BankFisherman, I can tell you why some people, including myself are all for drilling for oil in Alaska. First, just because I hope we drill for oil there; that does not mean I don't care about the Artic Wildlife Refuge. I believe we have the technology to extract the oil while preserving the environment. Extreme environmentalist groups have zero credibility with me. I've seen too many examples of their scare tactics, half truths, exaggerations, and outright lies. I’ve experienced first hand what happens when the public buys into the lies of Tre Arrow, ONRC, Greenpeace, and PETA. I remember the commercials on TV that the anti-hunters paid for that led to the outlawing of hunting cougars and bears with dogs. If I bought into their rhetoric and believed that the Artic Wildlife Refuge would be damaged, I would be against drilling there too. Remember when the environmentalists were saying that the Alaska Pipeline would be the end of the caribou? We know now that didn’t come to pass!

Even if Alaska doesn’t have enough oil to give us independence from foreign oil, it’s a start. Every gallon we produce here is one less gallon we by from Saudi Arabia or Iran. Alaska is vast, and I believe there could be enormous quantities of undiscovered oil there. We need to use technology to extract it without harming the environment, and I believe this is possible. Besides our environmentalists who don’t want us to drill for oil in Alaska I am sure there is one other group who hope we don’t drill for oil – and they live in an area known as the Middle East. For these reasons I say DRILL, DRILL, DRILL!

[BuKuBass]

...So what if there will be only 1 million caribou instead of two million?

grsteelies; What if the oil was there in Washington and it was deer and elk rather than caribou? Would you be so cavalier then?

And those of you who rationalize it because of the increased cost of fuel; what is the price of your principles? A buck a gallon, fifty cents? At what point do you once again value your values?

[Jimmy Carl Black]

As far as I know this is the LIG forum and for LIFE IN GENERAL
topics. We had issues with political problems in the past that we agreed to set aside.

We should be able to address the merits, problems and forces influencing the ANWR issue without hurting too many feelings but maybe I overestimate my fellow ifishers?

If you're in a huff to make a post. 1. Stop 2. Take a breather 3. Do one of the chores you've been putting off 4. Make your post

I'm sure it would enlighten us all

OK

IMHO:

Ultimately, the ANWR issue is just another distractive issue. This policy will have concrete and immediate negative consequences that we have not and will not be told the truth about by the politicians who support it. I do not personally support it for these reasons.

America needs a revolution of thinking and political action. Let's find the common issues we agree on and get some candidates to support us. Screw this gun control/abortion/capitol punishment/healthcare/ANWR debate. It's getting us to a bad place faster than ever and moving us ever closer to self-destruction. We need to figure out the issues that we agree on that affect our overall situation everyday. I know there are alot of NRA members here and I own my own guns. My point is we've bigger fish to fry :grin: right? We need candidates that address the issues common to the "conservative" and "liberal" population of America because when you look at it, we are all getting screwed by an oligarchy. These "lightening rod" issues are put up to distract us all from the real screwing that is hitting us all in the pocket book and ultimately in the soul. The mainstream media is a powerful, powerful tool that is owned by the few. You're friends are all around you. Try not to scare them off.

Anybody really interested in understanding a different philolsophical viewpoint on political issues feel free to contact. I'm personally sick of arguing with people. I'm just trying to understand the other side and reach common solutions for common problems. The other way does absolutely squat.

[BCF]

I say DRILL, DRILL, DRILL!

It is time to focus on alternative sources of energy. Not destroy protected lands. Time to go to the "bull pen' and bring in the next pitcher . You guys are done. Or should be.

BCF

[sped]

This oil will be EXPORTED overseas folks.......we will see none of it.......and .......The same folks who, still to this day, have not paid a single Alaskan a red cent for the Exxon debacle with the Valdese will be the ones making all the cash........If you think that because we're drilling in the NWR that the gas prices are going to go down your simply out of your mind..........AND.....once this resource is used up (all the oil sucked out)then what?? Then we're going to find alternative sources of energy?? Why not find alt sources now and forget wasting time drilling any more........Sped

[northriver1]

Any good bull pen has both left and right handed pictures.

[Irish Pennant]

I’m almost with Sped. In the past I opposed drilling in ANWR on nationalistic reasons. The majority of the drilling was going to be done by BP (A British owned company) and sold overseas. I felt like we were a 3rd world nation that was being exploited by a foreign owned corporation. I’m still opposed to the drilling of ANWR until some refineries are built on the west coast and the oil is extracted by an American company and processed here. Screw China and Japan, they can buy our finished products not our natural resources.

[PapaHog]

DRILL!

[Smj]

Everybody just needs to quit having babies!
That's the only solution. You're always going to have one side against the other, nothing gets done just for the good of people anymore, it's all done for the money only. Argue, argue, back and forth, and by the time a decision is made the whole picture has changed.

Smj

[TheRogue]

I fully believe that it can be drilled without minimal or no impact. The "******" of the North Slope just never took place, it's almost a non-issue.

However, I'm also dead set against it. It will be years before any benefit is realized from it, then the total will be a small drop in the bucket compared to total demand.

It will also be one more reason to NOT push ahead with more efficient autos and one more reason NOT to faze out home heating oil.

My .02

TR

[CATCH AND EAT]

Drill away, I don't want to disappoint Stew with my lack of sharing.

BTW it is not about greed it is about supply and demand. If you don't like oil then stop driving your cars and boats to your favorit fishing holes.

If you want to know where the true greed lies then take a look at how much your local, state and federal taxes are on a gallon of oil. National average is .46 cents per gallon goes to just taxation alone. Oil companies profit around .10 cents per gallon. They are entitled to make a profit and face some of the most stringent scruitiny of all industries about what they can and cannot do. Add oxygen here, add ethenol there, no lead, some lead and on and on. Yet they survive against the odds and make a fifty percent profit.

WE cry about the 50% profit of oil companies yet we sure don't complain when Time-Warner produces and 80% return. Hummmmm......seems we target our greed statements to people we don't like and don't fit our agendas.

[JustCallMeDave]

Any good bull pen has both left and right handed pictures.

Pictures come either left or right handed? How can you tell?

[rimrock]

It’s human nature to be short-sighted and DRILL, DRILL, DRILL is just the mantra of the short-sighted.

People get upset at litter in their yard or fishing spot, because it affects them. Hundreds of miles always, who cares especially if there is even a perceived marginal benefit. The I care about me first attitude gets upset about poaching of deer or elk, but would applaud the poaching of a cougar or wolf (just seen in the hunting forum).

It’s our nature to be short-sighted, but that doesn’t mean we have to be. My $0.02.

[lost_sailor]

... we have the technology to extract the oil while preserving the environment.

The check is in the mail. Saddam is building nuclear weapons.
"Mission Accomplished."

This oil will be EXPORTED overseas folks...

Note, this would be illegal (until they change their minds) - thanks to the Wyden amendment.

The time to develop alternative sources of energy was 20 years ago or more, but it's more important to make rich guys richer. yippee

[Joe Schwab]

The next time any of you who are opposed to drilling are on the Kenai take a side trip to Nikiski and look at the technology that has been developed by Alaska Petroleum Contractors for this purpose. This totally native owned corporation has spent millions developing and building platforms designed to be moved on ice roads overland to drill, extract and process crude oil without leaving a mess on the site or even a track to show they had been there. When they have finished, all that is left behind is a small spud where the wellhead exists.

I just returned from Kansas, where 30 years ago there were ugly well sites covering the landscape. The cleanup there has been unbelievable. Gone are the days when gushers were allowed to spew crude over hundreds of yards and nothing grew within sight of a well. All existing wells have containment curbs and wildlife is everywhere. I only wish Oregon had the bird hunting and deer hunting they are enjoying. Somehow drilling for oil just does not concern me other than the fact we are not drilling enough with the technology we have.

Go ahead and ask the Alaska natives what they think. Most of the ones I talked to are just waiting for the chance to drill. They own a good portion of the land up there and are not going to get hosed like the Natives did here.

Exxon Valdez is a completely different story. That could have happened anywhere and as for people getting paid? Talk about greed! The aftermath of the spill did more damage than the spill itself. Agencies fighting for control over who was going to get to steam clean all the rocks on the shoreline, (a real intelligent solution) and the only ones profiting were the companies selling steam cleaners. Boats were purchased and brought up for a "perceived" purpose of helping with the cleaup and then declared "ruined" by the oil in the waters so they could collect more money from Exxon. Fishing Charters that were barely making ends meet suddenly declared they were on the verge of making big bucks when the spill ruined their businesses. Don't believe eveything you read in the paper.

The Caribou herds will do just fine! Does anyone really eat those critters? What difference does it make whether there are 50,000 or 30,000?

[newfly]

There is hardly a more polarized issue (unless perhaps it would be nets on the CR?) than this. We sensationalize everything anymore don't we? If you don't drill, our economy will collapse and our dependance on foreign oil will cause us too be over ran. If you do drill, the Caribou will all die and the land will wither away. None of those are true. We are a nation of special interests. Makes it pretty hard to have any kind of a sustained policy about much of anything. We just don't play well with others I think.

[alaskan]

Weekender, you asked what Alaskans feel about this.
"HOORAY" It's about time.
Don't ever compare ANWR with Yellowstone. It's not a park with roads and hotels and hot dog stands. It's in the middle of NOWHERE. You can't drive there, only fly. And as far as the Caribou, they adapt, just like they did in the oilfields and all along the pipeline.
Capt Hook has it right.

[FastActionRodTip]

I think Bush would drill right down through Old Faithful if he could....I wonder if the consequences of removing all this oil from the earth is fully understood. I mean, assuming intelligent design, doesn't everything have a purpose? Wonder if the oil is acting like some antifreeze or something and we're foolishly destroying the planet.....

[grsteelies]

Bukubass, You can rest assured that if there was oil here in Wa state, thet would have already pumped it dry. The main reason that ANWR has not been popped open yet is that the oil companies have not had to because of the surplus crude from Opec, Mexico, and Argentina. It's not like they are hurting for $$$. We all know about last quarters 50 billion in profit. The current Alaska pipeline has actually benefited the wildlife over the years. In the winter, you will find thousands upon thousands of all animal kinds living right next to the big pipe. The hot crude in the pipe melts the ice and snow leaving rich nutrients available to eat during the winter that otherwise would be unavailable to the animals. We can argue all we want, but the bottom line is all about the $$$$$$$$$$. The idealist enviro's can live in their dream world if they want. Same goes for the dams, commercial fishing, indian treaties, etc. But the truth is if it's not about the money, what's it about? Just take a walk to your neighborhood Wally World. IT used to be full of American made this and that. Now it's full of Chinese and Korean crap. And as for .50 to $1 saving for my principles? My three kids education and financial security far outway those caribou. I surely don't hear any Alaskans complaining about the many, many new jobs that would be created. The increased revenue would drive the residential permanent fund back to what long time alaskans have always received. This years was the lowest in the history of the public money dispersal. Go visit the small rural villages in remote Alaska and see just how "great" our wonderful gov't takes care of the Inuit people. Villages Like Goodnews, Bethel, etc. need Alot more help from us than just leaving their caribou alone. Take a breath of reality next time before you jump on your horse!

[sped]

GRsteelies........All true but how's things going to be for them when the oil is gone?? Back to the same horrific environs.....Again folks, we are not getting the oil, we are selling it.......$$$ back to the government and the filthy oil companies who you all well know are the only ones that have profited from the recent hikes....We need to find new energy sources now.....If I could run my car and boat via hydrogen power I would.......It's tough to argue with an actual Alaskan......but maybe they haven't experienced the gov's way of dealing with nature very much....because thay haven't had too.....let's help Exxon....yeah, that's it......they haven't paid anyone anything.....not one cent......Sped

It’s human nature to be short-sighted and DRILL, DRILL, DRILL is just the mantra of the short-sighted.

People get upset at litter in their yard or fishing spot, because it affects them. Hundreds of miles always, who cares especially if there is even a perceived marginal benefit. The I care about me first attitude gets upset about poaching of deer or elk, but would applaud the poaching of a cougar or wolf (just seen in the hunting forum).

It’s our nature to be short-sighted, but that doesn’t mean we have to be. My $0.02.

Well said rimrock!
Yeah heck Capt. Hook what do a few caribou matter

[Joe Schwab]

Stew, Don't get your undies in a bunch. If you ever spent much time in Alaska you would possibly understand. The comment was rhetorical. There are Caribou everywhere and they are in no danger of being wiped out.

Herds fluctuate wildly. But there are still 10s of thousands.(Actually there are close to 1 million.) If you want to get passionate about something, try Blacktail deer. You know they used to thrive in clearcuts. Oh my, did I say that? Shame on me!

A real Biologist commented a number of years ago that the best thing that could happen to the Blacktail numbers on the coast would be another Tillamook burn. Man those were the days!

Sorry about hijacking the thread. My bad!

[Thumper]

There are Caribou everywhere and they are in no danger of being wiped out.

Actually caribou seem to love the development of oil resources and associated pipelines. At the outset of the North Slope project there were only about 3,000 caribou in the sector. That number has increased 10-fold since drilling began.

ANWR starts out with 123,000 head. Alaskans know that the development of a new pipeline will trigger another population boom.

http://www.anwr.org/features/pdfs/RangeMagANWRpiece.pdf

It's all good.

[alaskan]

Once again, this proves the point that you can give someone 1% of the facts and they will think they are an expert.

Once again, this proves the point that you can give someone 1% of the facts and they will think they are an expert.

Yes exactly! Hey I was in Yellowstone last summer so does that make me an automatic expert?
It cracks me up all th people on here that spend a little time up there and suddenly they know everything about Alaska and the rest of us poor rubes don't know squat!

[BCF]

Any good bull pen has both left and right handed pictures.

I want one that doesn't play for the Black Sox.

BCF

[BCF]

Drill away, I don't want to disappoint Stew with my lack of sharing.

BTW it is not about greed it is about supply and demand.
They are entitled to make a profit and face some of the most stringent scruitiny of all industries about what they can and cannot do. Yet they survive against the odds and make a fifty percent profit.

WE cry about the 50% profit of oil companies yet we sure don't complain when Time-Warner produces and 80% return. Hummmmm......seems we target our greed statements to people we don't like and don't fit our agendas.

You have got to be kidding.Right? Last quarter the major oil companies posted a 9.6 billion dollar profit. That seems more than reasonable for a three month period. Particularly when gas prices were being forced through the roof. Still think it is just a 50% profit?

Why do you guys pander to these mega corporations. I guess it must feel good to say you are on the "winning " team.

Enjoy............

BCF

[crabbait]

Why do you guys pander to these mega corporations. I guess it must feel good to say you are on the "winning " team.

Enjoy............

BCF

Kinda like listening to the chickens cheering for Col. Sanders.

[newfly]

You have got to be kidding.Right? Last quarter the major oil companies posted a 9.6 billion dollar profit. That seems more than reasonable for a three month period. Particularly when gas prices were being forced through the roof. Still think it is just a 50% profit?

Why do you guys pander to these mega corporations. I guess it must feel good to say you are on the "winning " team.

Enjoy............

BCF

yeah, just all these "mega corporations" keeping the good man down.

come one, get some perspective.

[Cool Texan]

Lets just drill for the oil and use the caribou to feed the hungry. Two birds, one stone. (yes, that's sarcasm)