Exxon Mobil and Shell Post Record Profits

[skein]

Please join me in boycotting those bloodsuckers.

Link to story

Skein

[reeldick]

Did anyone expect anything different?

[FastActionRodTip]

I don't buy their gas, but I change my own oil and their Exxon Superflo 5W30 at $4.50 a gallon after rebate is a fantastic deal so that's what I use.

[TheRogue]

Wait for it, soon Thumper and CT and the rest will jump on board with "Free Market Economy" and "buy their stock"!!!

TR

[Irish Pennant]

It's hard to defend these companies but to play the devils advocate, Exxon did 100 billion in sales and made 10 billion in profit. 10 cents on the dollar in net profit is not that great. 100 billion in sales is great. The price of oil for the most part is set by opec. I do believe that the big 3 oil companies has the pull to influence opec to some degree, by why? Now I'm thru playing the devils advocate. I won't boycot but I will continue to conserve.

[Abalone]

Don't worry. This is good for our economy. Some day this will all trickle down to us...

[Thumper]

Wait for it, soon Thumper and CT and the rest will jump on board with "Free Market Economy" and "buy their stock"!!!

TR

Yup. But remember that Exxon, Mobil and Shell is you and me. We are the "bloodsuckers" 'cause we own the corporations. :grin:

If your next door neighbor made cookies and was piling up huge cookie profits, then asked you if you wanted to buy in, why wouldn't you? Then you would be making the huge cookie profits too.

Every American with a broad-based stock index fund, which includes most Americans who have pension accounts, owns part of the cookie (oil) corporations. Join up. Enjoy the wealth. Whadda country!

[SOL]

Missed expectations by 4 cents a share, surprized the stock didn't tumble this morning...

[Zodiac-Fisherman]

Increased petrol prices because of the iraq conflict...?

BS.. Corporate america feels the urge to up the prices at the pump so they can put some extra $$ in their wallet..

[Cool Texan]

Its...its....its just so easy to respond.

Lessee what we got here.

1) High war driven consumption
2) Chinese stockpiling
3) Massive hurricanes this year impacting production

Stands to reason that yes, speculators would rationalize that supply would suffer in the face of very high demand. If that supply dwindles, that commodity becomes more scarce...and thus becomes more valuable, right? Speculation happens every day in every market. Should also be noted that part of what drove the profits were increased margins....meaning they're finding ways to do what they do better/faster/cheaper than before, which should be applauded by everyone.

Do we like higher prices? No. Are they the "fault" of the Exxon's of the world? Not really.

If you're mad about getting screwed at the pumps, then buying Exxon stock is a perfect financial hedge.

[skein]

You guys are wonderful.

Skein

[CATCH AND EAT]

Hey Jeff, I have a Shell credit card does that count?

[Cool Texan]

Bernie...it depends. What are the numbers on it? I'll tell you if it qualifies.

[Abalone]

If I didn't need gas to drive my truck I would join you.


Dang !

They got us over a barrel don't they ?

[CATCH AND EAT]

Bernie...it depends. What are the numbers on it? I'll tell you if it qualifies.

PM sent. just kidding.

[Cool Texan]

Since we've resolved this thread, do we need to go clean up the wal mart thread next?

[kamloops]

How would you guys like to donate to the cause $700 every stinking time you pull up to the gas dock....

I think it's a Chevron station in Warrenton, do they count?

[RodRoss]

ditto from the Walmart thread yesterday:

Wow, a free-market economy. It's one of the wonderful attributes of the United States that if you don't like a company or product, you have choices: do or don't use it, make it, or in this case, work for it. Put me solidly in the Milton Friedman, Ben Stein camp when it comes to these types of (non) issues.

By the by, Cavuto had a great conversation with New Jersey Congressman Menedez last night regarding this issue. Quite fascinating when the Congressman rambles on about shortages, price gouging, etc. and can never site concrete examples of abuses, or for that matter who to blame exactly (Big Oil, the distributors, the individual station owners). I was trying to follow and I know he's pandering to his base, but it just seemed like the same old, "it's somebody else's fault." I'm not really sure the proposed ideas of more governmental intervention in private business is the most healthy road to travel down. I'll guarantee you that government involvement will not mean lower long-term real prices for gasoline or any other commodity.

RodRoss

[skein]

Does Chevron fit in this mix? They do with me.

They're ALL in this together, but if we would ever target just ONE, nationwide, that ONE would lower it's prices and the others would be FORCED to follow.

Think about it - then do it. No more fuel from Mobil/Exxon or Shell. It's simple.

Skein

[Boatdog]

I'm glad I can join you on this one, (because I always use Chevron anyways).

Last time I purchased Exxon knowingly was before the Valdez spill.

I don't really think we're gonna make a difference, but I'm in anyways!!!


Now, how about you guys go over and hit the Gratuity thread, K? :grin:

[El-Kabong]

sadly this sanctioned screwing of the american consumer is not limited to these three. it will be wonderful this winter when "the owners" are found frozen to death holding a 4 cent a share dividend check, but were unable to pay for heating oil.

not everyone who needs heating oil can afford stocks (the suggested "perfect financial hedge") this let the poor die attitude is really touching.

EK

[Fish_N_Russ]

WHo does that leave to buy gas from then?
I thought Mobil/Exxon owned about all of em

[Abalone]

What about Natural Gas ?

At least I am able to have my gas turned off so I can burn wood.

Now I have more money I can use for tips.

[Cool Texan]

0

[Silver One]

Skein et. al,

So, these guys have a product "I/you/we" need/want, at a price some deem obscene making them...ergo...bloodsuckers?

Okay, if my/your kids of homebuying age need/want, to buy a home from any one of us and we deem the 'fair' price to be $264,000 on a home I/you/we paid $132,000 for a couple of years ago does that make I/you/we bloodsuckers?

Please help me understand the difference between bloodsucking greed and a smart investment?

Mike

[skein]

By golly you guys are right! What's the big deal? What was I thinking?



Skein

[duckboy]

I am glad i heat my house with a wood stove.

I want to make anhydrous ethanol to run my truck, but it is not an easy thing to make. We can get 96% pure, but that is going to mess up the truck after a while.

Why can the US step up and start running more alcohol in fuel.

Hell, the only place around here that does is ARCO. they run 10% Alcohol. I wonder why someone doesn't run with the idea of an alcohol station for fuel, or a place that might be a 50/50 mix. Anything to lessen our dependance on petroleum.

[crabbait]

How about this, Jim: The nation is terrorized into a war by its own government. Why? Because the government knows that the war will provide huge profits for those who make the machines of war, the war support/rebuild companies and the energy companies.

Of course, the profiteers share with the select few who run the government and everybody is happy.

[kamloops]

Or this

Head of Government creates largest stock market tumble in 70
years to redirect attention away from sordid sex scandal.

[Two Fister]

No, don't do it! Don't get sucked into this bottomless debate where everybody has made up their mind before thinking. Help me I'm falling...

Its...its....its just so easy to respond.

Lessee what we got here.

1) High war driven consumption
2) Chinese stockpiling
3) Massive hurricanes this year impacting production

Stands to reason that yes, speculators would rationalize that supply would suffer in the face of very high demand. If that supply dwindles, that commodity becomes more scarce...and thus becomes more valuable, right? Speculation happens every day in every market.

Following the basic rules of supply/demand and free market theory, this argument should have lead to increased prices at the pumps due to increased production costs. There is no economic model that indicates that it should have lead to the obscene profits that are being extracted from a society that is addicted to fossil fuels. The only thing that's making it possible is having an administration that is so closely tied to the petroleum industry that it's often hard to know who is making the decisions down on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Should also be noted that part of what drove the profits were increased margins....meaning they're finding ways to do what they do better/faster/cheaper than before, which should be applauded by everyone.

Sorry, that's just pie in the sky wishing CT. There have not been any recent advances in petroleum refining that have lead to sudden surges in productivity and efficiency. If anything, the petroleum industry has been screaming that they can't build new refineries because of all those nasty environmental regulations that have brought us stuff like cleaner water and air. Of course the current administration has proposed a solution that will let the tax payers take on the burden for the oil companies who are making higher profits than any company in history; they want to let them build refineries on closed military bases. It's bad enough that they get billions of dollars of corporate welfare every year, but to give them the land to build refineries when they are making billions of dollars in profits per quarter is criminal.

The biggest reason that they don't have enough refinery capacity is due to all of the consolidation that has occurred in the last 12 years. Starting under the Clinton administration (scares me to say under Clinton ), and continuing with the W Gang, the petroleum industry has reconstituted the oil monopolies that were divested in the 1920s-1930s. As part of this industry consolidation, they took refineries out of service that needed upgrades or were considered to be redundant. The lack of refinery capacity is wholly the result of the industry not being willing to put some of the billions of dollars of quarterly profits back into upgrades at these shuttered refineries.

From a pure supply side economic approach, why would an industry spend money to improve their production output when they are making increased margins while making less product? From a pure Wall Street approach they shouldn't. In the short term, they should just keep doing what they are doing. That's part of the societal problem with basing a business model on what Wall Street thinks because it is so short term: make the stock more valuable today and don't worry about what happens next week. In my opinion, that's a very dangerous approach with the long term health of the industry and our nations economy hanging in the balance.

The bigger question, to me, is why, as a society, would be continue to spend billions of taxpayer dollars subsidizing an industry that's making billions of dollars a quarter in profits?

I watched a show on the Discovery Channel a month ago about how in Brazil they have cut their dependency on imported oil by 90% by mandating ethanol based fuels that are derived from sugar. They are the largest grower of sugar beets and cane in the world. They found a viable "homegrown" (sorry I couldn't resist) solution to their dependency on foreign oil. In less than 10 years. Most cars sold there are now dual fuel vehicles that have a small gasoline tank to get the engine warm and then it automatically switches over to a pure ethanol based fuel. The cars are being made in Brazil by US manufacturers (GM, Ford, Daimler/Chrysler) so the technology is proven and available to our market right now. And it's a zero carbon gain energy source as the amount of CO2 produced is exactly the same as the amount produced by the plant if it was decaying in the field after harvest. So don't tell me that that alternative energy isn't viable when the technological powerhouse known as Brazil is doing it right now.

How long before we start to demand an alternative? OPEC recognizes this as a long term threat to their profitability
and they have been pumping more oil than they probably should be to alleviate the crude oil shortages that seemed to spark this pattern of rising costs. According to the Office of Budget and Management, US stockpiles of crude oil are at the highest levels they have been in more than a decade.

I think the petroleum industry is drunk on short term profits. If there is any real threat to that industry it will either come from the current White House (unlikely), the next administration, or Wall Street. Extracting too high of a price for a commodity always makes the pendulum swing back the other way. If I'm buying petroleum stock right now, it's only on a Short.

TF

[Cool Texan]

Sorry, that's just pie in the sky wishing CT. There have not been any recent advances in petroleum refining that have lead to sudden surges in productivity and efficiency.

Two Fist...you might want to read the article, especially the part that says "We are capturing the benefits of high oil and gas prices and refining margins," Shell Chief Financial Officer Peter Voser said, referring to the profit margin on each barrel of crude that is refined into gasoline, diesel and jet fuel."

[Thumper]

How about this, Jim: The nation is terrorized into a war by its own government. Why? Because the government knows that the war will provide huge profits for those who make the machines of war, the war support/rebuild companies and the energy companies.

Of course, the profiteers share with the select few who run the government and everybody is happy.

I'm certainly relieved that our moderators, who enforce the strict "no-politics" rules here at Ifish, would never dream of violating that policy. Unless, of course, it served their needs.

[Cool Texan]

I dont think that irony was lost on very many of us Thump.

[TheRogue]

0

[Jennie@ifish]

Yeah, I think that Crabbait and Skein are not going to be moderating this subject. I guess it's the rest of the mods duty. Who is that?

OH! ME?

Lord help me.

Jen

[Two Fister]

CT,
Personally, I don't listen to wholeheartedly to the explainations of increases in refinery productivity that are produced by the Chief Financial Offier of a company. Chances are he knows as much about the science of refining oil as the CFO of Enron knew about generation of electricity.

It's also his job to make things look rosy for Wall Street. It's his job to polish the turd when things are bad and to dull the gleam of the gold bullion that's spilling out of the vault when things are obscenely good. Most CEOs, CFOs, and COOs at major corporations are figureheads that look good in front of investors.

It must take an enormous effort on his part to keep from giggling when he says things like "We are capturing the benefits of high oil and gas prices and refining margins". That's just CFO speak for we are going to milk the snot out of this sucker until somebody stops us.

Being from Texas, you obviously know that the oil companies are not just refining crude oil from overseas sources that are out of their control. They produce quite a bit here in your home state and lots of what is produced in the Middle East is on rigs that are operated cooperatively with the OPEC countries. If the price of oil goes up to $70/barrel, these US companies are making enormous amounts of money producing the oil, refining the oil, and selling it back to US consumers. The corporate welfare is just icing on the cake.

At least that's my $3.13/gallon for diesel on the topic.
TF

[Jennie@ifish]

We have a general rule round here that if a moderator participates in a political post, then they are not free to moderate that post.

I hate that rule! :smile:

[Cool Texan]

Two Fister...wow...I dont even know where to begin. Its obvious that you arent involved in or even familiar with the process for generating financial results, analyzing them, discussing them publically, etc...so we'll just leave your interpretation alone despite the fact that you couldnt be more wrong in almost everything you just posted.

And yes, I am from Texas...but generalizations are just dumb. I am from there, but:

1) I know nothing of oil production
2) I dont own a pumpjack (though I've ridden them as a kid)
3) I dont have a horse
4) I dont have a 10 gallon hat
5) I dont a six shooter on my hip
6) I dont have a piece of straw in my mouth
7) I dont have a crush on all of the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders (ok, I'm lying on that one)

[Thumper]

It's also his job to make things look rosy for Wall Street. It's his job to polish the turd when things are bad and to dull the gleam of the gold bullion that's spilling out of the vault when things are obscenely good. Most CEOs, CFOs, and COOs at major corporations are figureheads that look good in front of investors.

You couldn't be more incorrect.

[Freakwater]

Is that what this guy is smiling about?



Freakwater

[txaggie]

4) I dont have a 10 gallon hat
5) I dont a six shooter on my hip

Just what in the heck is wrong with you??? I've got mine...where's yours? lose em'? You were issued them at birth weren't you?

[Two Fister]

You couldn't be more incorrect.

Hmmm. Really. OK Thumper you want the facts. This list is current through 2002 so it's kind of dated, but it gives a basic taste. It's copied directly from Forbes so I apologize about the length. There must have been some busy boys in 2001-2002.

And Cool Texan, I didn't make any generalizations about you, Texans, or Texas other than there is some oil produced there. Sorry if I offended you in some way, shape or form. It was only my intention to point out that there are oil derricks all over the place in the parts of Texas that I have spend time in. That would mainly be in Midland and Odessa cleaning up hazardous waste sites that were mostly caused, and abandoned, by the petroleum industry.

Anyway, enough about me. Here's the list of the ones that got caught.

1) Adelphia Communications (otc: ADELA - news - people ) April 2002 Founding Rigas family collected $3.1 billion in off-balance-sheet loans backed by Adelphia; overstated results by inflating capital expenses and hiding debt. SEC; Pennsylvania and New York federal grand juries Three Rigas family members and two other ex-executives have been arrested for fraud. The company is suing the entire Rigas family for $1 billion for breach of fiduciary duties, among other things. Did not return repeated calls for comment.

2) AOL Time Warner (nyse: AOL - news - people ) July 2002 As the ad market faltered and AOL's purchase of Time Warner loomed, AOL inflated sales by booking barter deals and ads it sold on behalf of others as revenue to keep its growth rate up and seal the deal. AOL also boosted sales via "round-trip" deals with advertisers and suppliers. SEC; DOJ Fears about the inquiry intensified when the DOJ ordered the company to preserve its documents. AOL said it may have overstated revenue by $49 million. New concerns are afoot that the company may take another goodwill writedown, after it took a $54 billion charge in April. No comment.

3)Arthur Andersen November 2001 Shredding documents related to audit client Enron after the SEC launched an inquiry into Enron SEC; DOJ Andersen was convicted of obstruction of justice in June and will cease auditing public firms by Aug. 31. Andersen lost hundreds of clients and has seen massive employee defections. Did not return repeated calls for comment.

4) Bristol-Myers Squibb (nyse: BMY - news - people ) July 2002 Inflated its 2001 revenue by $1.5 billion by "channel stuffing," or forcing wholesalers to accept more inventory than they can sell to get it off the manufacturer's books SEC Efforts to get inventory back to acceptable size will reduce earnings by 61 cents per share through 2003. Bristol will continue to cooperate fully with the SEC. We believe that the accounting treatment of the domestic wholesaler inventory buildup has been completely appropriate.

5)CMS Energy (nyse: CMS - news - people ) May 2002 Executing "round-trip" trades to artificially boost energy trading volume SEC; CFTC; Houston U.S. attorney's office; U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York Appointed Thomas J. Webb, a former Kellogg's CFO, as its new chief financial officer, effective in August. No comment.

6)Duke Energy (nyse: DUK - news - people ) July 2002 Engaged in 23 "round-trip" trades to boost trading volumes and revenue. SEC; CFTC; Houston U.S. attorney's office; Federal Energy Regulatory Commission The company says an internal investigation concluded that its round-trip trades had "no material impact on current or prior" financial periods. Although the effect [of these trades] on the company's financial statements was immaterial, we consider improper trades in conflict with the company's policies. To address this we have made changes to our organization, personnel and procedures.

7) Dynegy (nyse: DYN - news - people ) May 2002 Executing "round-trip" trades to artificially boost energy trading volume and cash flow SEC; CFTC; Houston U.S. attorney's office Currently conducting a re-audit. Standard & Poor's cut its credit rating to "junk," and the company said it expects to fall as much as $400 million short of the $1 billion in cash flow it originally projected for 2002. Dynegy believes that it has not executed any simultaneous buy-and-sell trades for the purpose of artificially increasing its trading volume or revenue.

8) El Paso (nyse: EP - news - people ) May 2002 Executing "round-trip" trades to artificially boost energy trading volume SEC; Houston U.S. attorney's office Oscar Wyatt, a major shareholder and renowned wildcatter, may be engineering a management shakeup. There have been no allegations or accusations, only requests for information. The company has confirmed in multiple affidavits that it did not engage in "round-trip" trades to artificially inflate volume or revenue.

9) Enron (otc: ENRNQ - news - people ) October 2001 Boosted profits and hid debts totaling over $1 billion by improperly using off-the-books partnerships; manipulated the Texas power market; bribed foreign governments to win contracts abroad; manipulated California energy market DOJ; SEC; FERC; various congressional committees; Public Utility Commission of Texas Ex-Enron executive Michael Kopper pled guilty to two felony charges; acting CEO Stephen Cooper said Enron may face $100 billion in claims and liabilities; company filed Chapter 11; its auditor Andersen was convicted of obstruction of justice for destroying Enron documents. No comment.

10) Global Crossing (otc: GBLXQ - news - people ) February 2002 Engaged in network capacity "swaps" with other carriers to inflate revenue; shredded documents related to accounting practices DOJ; SEC; various congressional committees Company filed Chapter 11; Hutchison Telecommunications Limited and Singapore Technologies Telemedia will pay $250 million for a 61.5% majority interest in the firm when it emerges from bankruptcy; Congress is examining the role that company's accounting firms played in its bankruptcy. No comment.

11) Halliburton (nyse: HAL - news - people ) May 2002 Improperly booked $100 million in annual construction cost overruns before customers agreed to pay for them. SEC Legal watchdog group Judicial Watch filed an accounting fraud lawsuit against Halliburton and its former CEO, Vice President Dick Cheney, among others. Halliburton follows the guidelines set by experts, including GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles).

12) Homestore.com (nasdaq: HOMS - news - people ) January 2002 Inflating sales by booking barter transactions as revenue. SEC The California State Teachers' Retirement pension fund, which lost $9 million on a Homestore investment, has filed suit against the company. No comment.

13) Kmart (nyse: KM - news - people ) January 2002 Anonymous letters from people claiming to be Kmart employees allege that the company's accounting practices intended to mislead investors about its financial health. SEC; House Energy and Commerce Committee; U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan The company, which is in bankruptcy, said the "stewardship review" it promised to complete by Labor Day won't be done until the end of the year. Did not return repeated calls for comment.

14) Merck (nyse: MRK - news - people ) July 2002 Recorded $12.4 billion in consumer-to-pharmacy co-payments that Merck never collected. None The SEC approved Medco's IPO registration, including its sales accounting. The company has since withdrawn the registration for the IPO, which was expected to raise $1 billion. Our accounting practices accurately reflect the results of Medco's business and are in accordance with GAAP. Recognizing retail co-payments has no impact on Merck's net income or earnings per share.

15) Mirant (nyse: MIR - news - people ) July 2002 The company said it may have overstated various assets and liabilities. SEC An internal review revealed errors that may have inflated revenue by $1.1 billion. This is an informal inquiry, and we will cooperate fully with this request for information.

16) Nicor Energy, LLC, a joint venture between Nicor (nyse: GAS - news - people ) and Dynegy (nyse: DYN - news - people ) July 2002 Independent audit uncovered accounting problems that boosted revenue and underestimated expenses. None Nicor restated results to reflect proper accounting in the first half of this year. Our focus now is to stabilize this venture and put some certainty to its financial results. The company is evaluating its continued involvement in this venture.

17) Peregrine Systems (nasdaq: PRGNE - news - people ) May 2002 Overstated $100 million in sales by improperly recognizing revenue from third-party resellers SEC; various congressional committees Said it will restate results dating back to 2000; slashed nearly 50% of its workforce to cut costs; is on its third auditor in three months and has yet to file its 2001 10-K and so, consequently, is in danger of being delisted from the Nasdaq. We have been and will continue to cooperate with the SEC and the Congressional committee.

18) Qwest Communications International (nyse: Q - news - people ) February 2002 Inflated revenue using network capacity "swaps" and improper accounting for long-term deals. DOJ; SEC; FBI; Denver U.S. attorney's office Qwest admitted that an internal review found that it incorrectly accounted for $1.16 billion in sales. It will restate results for 2000, 2001 and 2002. To raise funds, Qwest says it is selling its phone-directory unit for $7.05 billion. We are continuing to cooperate fully with the investigations.

19) Reliant Energy (nyse: REI - news - people ) May 2002 Engaging in "round-trip" trades to boost trading volumes and revenue. SEC; CFTC Recently replaced Chief Financial Officer Steve Naeve with Mark M. Jacobs, a managing director of Goldman Sachs and a Reliant adviser. We're cooperating with the investigations.

20) Tyco (nyse: TYC - news - people ) May 2002 Ex-CEO L. Dennis Kozlowski indicted for tax evasion. SEC investigating whether the company was aware of his actions, possible improper use of company funds and related-party transactions, as well as improper merger accounting practices. Manhattan district attorney; SEC Said it will not certify its financial results until after an internal investigation is completed. The Bermuda-based company is not required to meet the SEC's Aug. 14 deadline. Investors looking to unseat all board members who served under Kozlowski may launch a proxy fight to do so. The company is conducting an internal investigation and we cannot comment on its specifics, but we will file an 8-K on the initial results around Sept. 15.

21) WorldCom (nasdaq: WCOEQ - news - people ) March 2002 Overstated cash flow by booking $3.8 billion in operating expenses as capital expenses; gave founder Bernard Ebbers $400 million in off-the-books loans. DOJ; SEC; U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York; various congressional committees The company stunned the Street when it found another $3.3 billion in improperly booked funds, which will bring its total restatement up to $7.2 billion, and that it may have to take a goodwill charge of $50 billion. Former CFO Scott Sullivan and ex-controller David Myers have been arrested and criminally charged, while rumors of Bernie Ebbers' impending indictment persist. WorldCom is continuing to cooperate with all ongoing investigations.

22) Xerox (nyse: XRX - news - people ) June 2000 Falsifying financial results for five years, boosting income by $1.5 billion SEC Xerox agreed to pay a $10 million and to restate its financials dating back to 1997. We chose to settle with the SEC in April so we can put the matter behind us. We have restated our financials and certified our financials for the new SEC requirements.

As far as pure accounting scandals don't forget the problems at Morgan Stanley, Deloitte & Touche, Ernst & Young, KPMG, and PricewaterhouseCoopers.

[Thumper]

Hmmm. Really. OK Thumper you want the facts. This list is current through 2002 so it's kind of dated, but it gives a basic taste. It's copied directly from Forbes so I apologize about the length.

Wow. So you can google up an article from Forbes. Go back and look at what I took issue with, specifically. You obviously know nothing about what it takes to lead a major publically-owned corporation today. It's easy to sit at a keyboard and take cheap shots at some of America's smartest and most capable people.

[Redbull]

Hey Freak

"Is that what this guy is smiling about?"

All the "oil" reserves Bob's Big Boy has in that 4th Chin. Good God ma man, mix in a salad. I know, I know...thyroid problem.

When did Jabba The Hut start working at Exxon?

[Two Fister]

Thumper,
I can google up all kinds of neat things when I put my mind to it. Thanks for noticing.

I can also critically assess the state of corporate business ethics. It's in the toilet and it stinks. And yeah, I've had a little training in it just like you I'm assuming. In my opinion, the Gordon Ganno (sp?) approach of Greed is Good should have stayed dead and in the 80's. The threat to the stock market, and by default, the US/World economy from repeated corporate scandals is real and serious. It's very destabilizing to our economy when the leaders of our economic engines get caught cooking the books just to satisify a misplaced need of Wall Street traders (many of whom are not all that well educated or astute) to hit a number.

And, just maybe, I was being a bit to broad when I said that all CEOs, CFOs, and COOs were simple figureheads. I'll give you that there are lots of capable, well educated, smart, people that are running the major corporations of the US, and for that matter, the rest of the world. I happen to think the world of Les Schwab and his homegrown empire. Hard work, smarts, risk taking, and a concern for the people both working for him and his customers brought him to where he is today. The fact that he has refused to take a salary for years and lives modestly in Prineville is a testament to his sense of corporate and civic responsibility.

I do take exception with the inference that corporations are above reproach. Every corporation, and again by default our economy, is only as healthy as the audit that tries like crazy to get to the truth. False reports are criminal and should be treated as such. That CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and their accountants were able to bilk thousands of people out of their retirements should be a capital offense.

I do find it ironic that people that claim to respect facts get personal and insulting when confronted with 22 examples of those same facts. That's OK though, I developed a really tough skin working for the Man. If you want to politely discuss corporate ethics and responsibility that's great. If not, you can have the thread and I'll move back to fishing.

Anyway, have a great Friday!
TF

[Two Fister]

It's easy to sit at a keyboard and take cheap shots at some of America's smartest and most capable people.

And one more thing. You are 100% correct in your assertion that it's easy to sit back and take cheap shots at CEO, CFOs, COOs that cheat their investors and employees out of billions of dollars of retirement savings.

[Thumper]

And one more thing. You are 100% correct in your assertion that it's easy to sit back and take cheap shots at CEO, CFOs, COOs that cheat their investors and employees out of billions of dollars of retirement savings.

Mr. Fister --- You have a marvelous moustache.

[Striper Club]

I suppose I could gripe about the gas prices as well, and often do. However, my company recorded some nice profits this year as well. Heck, we were one of the most profittable companies in the country during the Great Depression even.

That basically gives me no room to fight the establishment, especially if my bonus is good this year.

Hooray capitalism! :grin:

[Two Fister]

Mr. Fister --- You have a marvelous moustache.

Thumper,
That one's a bit too subtle for me. Care to expand on it so that I won't feel like the last one at the party to get the joke?

And while we're crafting witty riddles, can you identify the author of the following quote about the current state of oil company profits?

If there are those who abuse the free enterprise system to advantage themselves and their businesses at the expense of all Americans, they ought to be exposed and they ought to be ashamed."

Should be easy when you know the facts...
TF

[Cool Texan]

Fister....uh, try Gekko, not Ganno. Also, dont mean any disrespect on your "training", but Gekko and the quote are from a movie, not real life.

Its actually sad that you would be so jaded by the exceptions of companies to begrudge the greater number of the good.

Your earlier posts were way off the mark....seriously. If you dont know what goes into running the company, especially the CFO's that you're criticizing, then its probably best to stay on the sidelines, with the feet on the floor and not in the mouth.

And yes, your moustache is a beautiful one. :grin:

[Two Fister]

CT,
You can call them exceptions if it makes you feel better. Personally, I think Guano would be a better name for that brand of scum. And yes, I know it's from a movie. It's just that they like to use it as an example in a lot of MBA classes.

And CT, do you or Thumper, run a Fortune 500 company? Are you a regional business owners? How about small business owners? Didn't think so. I have worked Fortune 500 company as a manager, I have managed a division for a regional engineering firm, and I currently am the owner of a small speciality consulting firm. You should do your homework before spouting too hard.

I get the feeling that I'm arguing with a couple of accountants that are only interested in numbers no matter how they are achieved. I am much more interested in businesses that still believe in some sense of corporate responsibility to our society. I've yet to hear an arguement from either you or Thumper that does anything other than try to insult me or people that are concerned with the legitimate issue of business ethics.

And you still don't know who that quote is from, do you? You guys should be ashamed as he is one of the big wigs in your most favored party.
TF

[Cool Texan]

never mind...not worth it

[OwyheeKIller]

Wow! Check out the turkey neck on this guy! Is there a hunting season on big oil turkeys? :grin:




Friends don't let friends buy from turkeys. Boycott.

[garyk]

1. At the mega-corporate level that we're discussing, a 10% NET PROFIT margin is fantastically good. Remember, that's NET - after all expenses, including fabulously compensated executives, are paid.

To you stockholders...enjoy those 3.5% annual dividends.

Just hope you own enough shares so that the dividend income and share appreciation are outpacing the extra money you're spending on gas/oil/propane/LNG, etc. etc.


2.

don't like a company or product, you have choices

Right. That's what Adam Smith capitalist economics is based on. And it works, if that premise holds true.

Problem is, we're not living with that today. Corporate consolidation is eliminating our choices across the board - from gasoline to communication to retail choices.

Smells like 'wealth re-distribution' to me.

[Two Fister]

Further you now have Executives (ie the figureheads) certifying the financial results....which means if you lie, you go to jail....if the data is wrong, you go to jail. Result? You better believe these guys/gals know whats in the numbers and know that they are legitimate.

Good. It's about time, don't you think? And I've already apologized for calling them figureheads. Sorry if that's not enough for you.

Do a run a company? No. Do I work first hand for CFO's as their Director of Finance to help them analyze results with/for the President and the Board?

So in other words you are the person that actually gives these people their numbers to certify. It's no wonder that you are so sensitive to me calling them figureheads.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Without question. You like apples? How you like dem apples.

I never said that you don't know what you're talking about CT. I just keep hearing you and Thumper describe the Enrons of the world as anomolies. I happen to think it's business as usual practice to cook the books. You can put all of the certifications in place that you like, but it's still going to happen. That's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but a person in your position should cast a critical eye on those around them. If the crud hits the fan, who do you think is more likely to be wearing a blindfold up against the wall, you or the attorney swaddled CFO?

[/quote]

By the way, I dont think anyone cares about your quotes since you seem to quote movies.

Oh, low blow CT! :grin: That's some stinging sarcasm! It's not from a movie. It's headlines in today's papers. As a matter of fact, it's a headline in all three of the papers that I read today. You should really pay attention to the news to find out what the leaders of your party are saying.

TF

[Cool Texan]

Not sensitive at all...just informed. There's a difference.

[Two Fister]

Do you give up yet? I'm just dying to keep you informed about the author of that quote.

[Two Fister]

garyk,
Exactly! The proponents of so called "Free Market Economics" keep ranting about getting the government to keep it's filty paws off of business. Then they scream about foreign competition and put their hands out for corporate welfare. It's really quite sickening.

Here's a quote for you since CT and Thumper don't seem to appreciate my quotes.

Exxon Mobil, the worlds largest oil company, said Thursday that its third quarter net income jumped 75%, to $9.92 billion. It's profit in the first nine months of this year - $25.42 billion - was already equal to its full-year earnings for 2004, a record year.

Hmmm. Matching the record annual profits in a nine months, on a record setting fiscal year. No siginicant increases in refinery technology or efficiency. OPEC producing oil like it's going out of style, so to speak. Crude inventories at the highest levels in 10 years. Hmmm.

OK CT, you're the number cruncher. Make me understand how that works.

[Got One!]

They are making record profits because the world is using record amounts of fuel...
Yes a company should make a profit...heck you want oil profits look at Aramco (Saudi) it cost them 4$ a barrel to pump it out and they are selling it for $60...now thats insane.

That said until someone with a lot of $$$ leads the way to a better fuel source that we can all go down to the corner and buy, we are pretty much at the mercy of the oil companies.... and so is the environment... and unless someone with the power of Wild bill gates or the US gov, initiated a new source (which is technologicly available) we are stuck because the oil companies arent going to until someone else steps up to the plate with a better offer.

I personally think the real one screwing us right now is the speculators on wall street, they cant afford to let the price come down because they jacked it so high.

And as mentioned the US needs to get off thier butt because the chinese government will buy every last drop of oil and every oil company they can which is a serious threat to our security....and thats not to get into the amount of US debt they are buying....but thats another thread.

[P Stewart]

Exxon makes record profits....

Some of my friends up in Alaska were affected by the '89 Hazelwood incident. You'd think Exxon would maybe put this one to bed. Guess they'll buy there way through until everyone from the class-action finally passes away or gives up. Kind of depressing, but I can hear them chuckling while they're counting their beans(one for me, two for me, one for me, two for me). 16 years later...
Anywho... I follow with some of the same sentiment as was posted on the Ifish Community board about threads lately... this bums me out.
regards-pat