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Old 10-23-2003, 12:31 PM   #1
chummer
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Default What do you consider a spike?

In conversations at the station this morning, the subject of spike elk was brought up. One of our guys, who is generally up on these details says that the first two points on a mature bull (G-1 and G-2) are both considered brow tines. The synopsis defines a spike as a bull with at least one spike antler,and brow tines are not considered an antler point. His contention is that, hypothetically, if he saw a bull with 6 -7 points on one side and only the bottom two points left on the other side (the top points busted off) it would be legal to kill with a spike only tag. A call to ODF&W was fruitless, they did'nt know. A call to a local game cop garnered the "It's against the spirit of the law" response. Anyone out there know, for sure, the answer. Are the 1st and 2nd points both considered brow tines???

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Old 10-23-2003, 12:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

What about a "3 point +" tag. would the same rules apply? if not then you could shoot a "spike" with 2 brow tines on a side and call it a 3 point. If you shot a true 3 point without counting the brow tines then would that be a 5 point?
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Old 10-23-2003, 01:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Per the 2003 Oregon Big Game Reguations, Page 9, Definitions:

""Spike only elk" For the purpose of a bag limit definition, means a bull elk with at least 1 visible unbranched antler (brow tines are not considered an antler branch under spike only regulations)"

So, that being said. If an elk had a spike antler with a brow tine it would be leagal under the regulations.

In your example of the broken antler my opinion would be that it is legal but might be open to some interpretation (grey area). I wouldn't hesitate but you had better make darn sure that broken antler didn't fork anywhere you could hang a ring off of and that might be very dificult in a real field situation.

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Old 10-23-2003, 02:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Jeremy,
Per the regulations, for 3 point + elk the brow tines counts as a point.

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Old 10-23-2003, 02:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I believe the broken antler would be pushing it, unless it was VERY obvious the antler had been broken long before. Otherwise, what's to keep a guy from shooting a branch bull in a spike area, then breaking it off above the eyeguards?

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Old 10-23-2003, 03:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

There are pictures in the regs that outline this very well. I would say your friend is incorrect about the seond branch above the brow tine. I have never heard anyone refer to the first two as brow tines, only the one closest to the base. [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]
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Old 10-23-2003, 03:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I agree with Mellow Yellow. I took a four point one year that had broken off one side above the brow tine. It wasn't a spike only hunt. By the book he would have been legal in a spike only hunt but no way would I want to try to give that truth to a state trooper.

Go with the pictures in the regs.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Wow guys, come on, this isn't brain surgery! For many years there were some very simple illustrations in the synopsis, which I'm betting are still there (I don't have a copy handy), that showed a bull with one side spike and the other side forked at the top of the main beam. The illustration noted that such a bull was NOT considered a spike for "spike only" purposes, because one side was more than merely a spike. As such, the six or seven point on one side with a broken spike on the other is not a spike--no matter how you count it. It's a six or seven point with a broken main beam on one side. And, "by the book" the four point with one side broken WOULD NOT have been legal in a "spike only" unit. If you read the synopsis and look at the illustrations--again, I'm assuming they're still there--it's obvious that the bull must in fact be a spike on both sides. Now, a bull with two broken main beams may qualify, but not one with only one side broken. Also, at least in the past, the illustrations addressed the brow tine issue as well.

Many states, Montana as an example, require a brow tine in order for a bull to be legal.
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Old 10-24-2003, 12:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Is this really that hard to understand.How bout ya'll read the rules.If it doesn't have a fork of 1" or more it is a spike, ya no, a 1 point on both sides. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]
How bout you consentrate on shooting straight instead of trying to get around the rules.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Hey cliff! LIGHTEN UP!! It was a hypothetical discussion. Have I ever seen an elk as described above? not in my 25 years of hunting. Would I shoot one if given the opportunity with a spike only tag in my pocket? not a chance.

So answer my original question O learned one, or did you even get that far before before you started poppin' off? Are the first 2 points on a mature bull (G-1 and G-2) considered Brow Tines? Any P&Y or B&C scorers care to comment?
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:57 AM   #11
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I am not a scorer but have read a lot about antlers and have seen a bunch of antlers. I believe chummer is correct in calling G-1 and G-2 brow tines. especially on an impressive older rack. Brow tines, by definition, are forward sweeping points and most mature elk have 2 brow tines per side. I have seen brow tines with abnormal points on older racks, they are awesome!
However...in the saddle moutain 3-pt or better unit, brow tines are counted as points so a legal bull could be a large spike main beam with 2 brow tines as long as the points are over 1 inch in length as measured from the nearest edge of beam.

[ 10-24-2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: fishuntr2 ]
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:35 AM   #12
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Jeez Cliff, someone poop in your Cheerios this morning?
:shocked:
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Bubzilla,

Quote:
Wow guys, come on, this isn't brain surgery! For many years there were some very simple illustrations in the synopsis, which I'm betting are still there (I don't have a copy handy), that showed a bull with one side spike and the other side forked at the top of the main beam. The illustration noted that such a bull was NOT considered a spike for "spike only" purposes,
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Its actually just the opposite of what you said. Spike on one side and fork on the other IS A LEGAL BULL The illustrations show a bull with a spike on one side and fork on the other as a LEGAL bull. Also a bull with a fork on one side, spike on the other with a SINGLE SET &lt;one on each side&gt; of brow tines as a LEGAL bull.

I would not even consider shooting a bull with more than that even if it looked like he had 2 brow tines on one side. The set right above the eyes &lt;one on each side&gt; are the brow tines and any others are additional points IMO.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:
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Old 10-25-2003, 12:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

The simple answer , pay attention now, :grin: if ANY protruding antler, forks more than 1", it is not a spike.
ok , i hope that helps ya.This is a common rule in all western states.
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Old 10-25-2003, 01:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

For those that havent seen it or cared to look in the regs here you go. Oregon regs page 70 on the bottom.




Looks pretty straight forward to me.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 10-25-2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]
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Old 10-25-2003, 03:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

This is really starting to crack me up.

Bubzilla = please, never consider becoming a brain surgeon.

Fishncliff = How can you be so rude when you haven't a clue what you're talking about? You suggested I listen carefully. I did. And even listening carefully, you are as incorrect as you were the first time.

As for whether P & Y or B & C consider G1 or G2 a brow tine, that's irrelevant. They consider it G1 and G2, or respectively, first point and second point. They both score as antlers points, their length is included in the score, and when adding up total number of points (supplimentary data not included in scoring), they most certainly include them. As a general rule though, it goes something like this: beginning at the base of the antlers, the first set of points is known as the brow; the second, bay or bez; the third, tray or trez; the fourth, royal or dagger; the fifth and sixth sets are called sur-royal; and seventh points are called imperial points.

Several years ago I was hunting the Naneum Unit in WA (archery). Unless you draw a tag, it's spike or cow only. Washington had pretty much the same "spike" rules as Oregon.

On the second day of season, we ran into a guy. He had a pretty good story to tell. He'd had a bull broadside inside of 20 yds. On one side it displayed a relatively heavy 5 pt. On the other, about a 4' spike, with one eyeguard. He told us how bad he wanted to shoot it, but was pretty sure he couldn't. We told him he could. He nearly cried and headed off in the direction from which he'd come. Perhaps looking for the bull?

I think this was a good discussion. If this guy in WA had sat through a similar discussion, he'd have known what to do.

[ 10-25-2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Mello-Yello ]
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Old 10-26-2003, 06:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Wow, either Mello is well-informed, or an extremely good BSer! I found a spike shed today that looks like it had to have come off a pretty sizeable animal. The spike is 26" tall, but that's from the base to the point, not the actual length of the spike like you could take with a seamstresses measuring tape. Anyway, it has a brow tine that's almost 10" long too! Just seems like a pretty big hunk of ivory for a spike. I'll try and get a pic of it up sometime soon.
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Old 10-26-2003, 07:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I like to think a little of both. It's the only thing keeping me from falling into the 'nerd' category (I think).

I guess you could say I've got 'years and beers' of experience...

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Old 10-27-2003, 08:09 AM   #19
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I have a friend that shot a bull in the Starkey "inside the fence", you know, the most regulated area in the state, it was a spike with a single 3" brow tine on one side by 4 point on the other side. He tagged it with a spike only tag and was checked by the bio's there.

I have seen spikes up to 3 1/2' long. Some pretty heavy with knurling around the base, and curved in.

I sure wouldn't shoot one with 2 brow tines and try to pass it as a spike in this state.

Elk racks are subject to alot of deformities.

Shoot a SPIKE and you wont have any problems. Hint, they are usually alot smaller than a branch bull and often yellow on the butt instead of creamy.

What I hated more was Colorado trying to put 4 points on some of the raghorns. But there, if the bull has a 4" brow tine, he's legal in their 4 point or better system.

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Old 10-27-2003, 09:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I guess my point is that, perhaps ODF&W should clarify what are considered Brow Tines, they just say brow tines are NOT considered points, even though everyone else counts them when counting and scoring.
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Old 10-27-2003, 09:43 AM   #21
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Chummer, if I'm not mistaken (I'm shooting from the hip cuz my regs aren't handy), but ODFW only says brow tines aren't considered a point under the spike rules. They are considered a point under branch-antler rules. Since the picture shows a brow tine as singular, I wouldn't try to call the bez tine a brow tine (rarely seen on an immature bull anyway).

Unfortunately, there are a lot of variables (what-ifs) to deal with, and I'm sure as difficult as it is to weed through here, it'd be even tougher in the field when you've got seconds to make your decision.

Something we've done in elk camp is discussed every imaginable scenario. Essentially, playing it through our minds until we're real comfortable with what we can and can't do.

My only advice is, unless you're 100% sure that what you're about to do is right, don't do it.
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Old 10-27-2003, 09:55 AM   #22
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Mellow-yellow is right again! Once again, as per the washington regs (but I've taken them to be fairly similar) The Spike Bull Restriction states that "An Elk taken in these units must have at lest one antler that is a spike that does not branch above the ears." So if you see an elk that has a brow tine, an eye gaurd of sorts, and they are both BELOW the ears, then it's legal. But as Mellow stated, I'd be real sure before I torched one off. Also, Mellow is correct on that brow tines or eye gaurds count as points, but the elk must have at least two points on the main beam, so the spike with eyegaurds and brow tines would NOT be legal in a 3 pt minimum, unless he has brow tines AND two points above the ears and on the other side. Starting to feel like elk camp yet M-Y?
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Before someone else can ask....

What if the elk has no ears, or he's genetically malformed and his ears are behind his shoulders?

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Old 10-27-2003, 02:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Ok here are the pics of the shed I found. I don't know about anyone else, but if I had a spike tag, as far as an elk having legal spikes on both sides, I sure wouldn't mind finding whoever lost this top one (note the inferior spike my dad found a couple weeks ago :grin: )...

Here's a pic of the girth near the base, it's pretty gnarly for a young whipper-snapper spike.

I thought it was a pretty good sized spike relative to the one below, and any spike elk I've seen alive and breathing.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Mello, thanks for your information, It was quite helpful, although I doubt I'll ever run into a situation as I described at the beginning.

I hope you jumped all over that Idaho combo hunt!!
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

My Bad. I should have waited and checked a synopsis. I was mistaken about what I thought I'd remembered.

Boy we sure are lucky to have such a "geeeennnuuusss" like Mello-Yellow around, though. I'm sure he and the other two guys with I.Q.s above 50 in Coos County get together for some lively debates, e.g., "is red neck two words or one, or should it be hyphenated?"

Now, I'm off to finish up my intership in brain surgery.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Once again Bub, you speak without having the facts. There are actually 5 people in Coos County w/IQs in excess of 50.

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Old 10-28-2003, 04:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

The Oregon regs state 3+ visible points on one side is all that is needed to qualify a bull for the 3+ pt. areas. No mention of points off the main beam or above the ears. But it looks to me like a bull "could" be legal as a spike or a 3 pt.
It all depends on that particular animals antlers.
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Old 10-28-2003, 08:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

I'm sorry M-Y, you've got me again. What I should have said is that you and the other two guys with I.Q.s above 50 and "most" of their teeth. :grin: "Most" of course being a relative term. Wait, I gotta go, I hear some banjos playing in my neighborhood, and they seem to be dueling! [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]
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Old 10-28-2003, 09:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: What do you consider a spike?

Touche'
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