Satisfaction bittersweet

[Freighter Bait]

Just got home from a productive deer hunting trip to north central WA, where I spent the weekend with my son. We had the opportunity to hunt on private land, not that plenty of public land isn't availalble. On Saturday, I had opportunity to take a small 3-point whitetail and didn't pass it up. Later in the day we watched a large buck that appeared to have something wrong with it. This buck was 1/2 mile away when first spotted and was pushed into the area we were hunting late in the day. When we came back to camp, a hunter had stopped by with a small 2-point he had just harvested and bemoaning the big one that had gotten away that morning. He had taken a head shot and sworn he had knocked it over. We were sure this is the large buck we had seen. My son and I decided we needed to go after this deer. We spent Sunday morning hunting the area we had seen the buck enter the night before. Early in the hunt we spotted two coyotes in the area that didn't seem interested in leaving when they spotted us. It wasn't long before my son spotted a large buck moving thru the timber. He waited for an opportunity and got a clean one shot kill on a nice 4 point whitetail. This bittersweet is that this buck was the one that had been knocked over on Sat. by the hunter so proud of his 2 point. This deer had been severely wounded to the degree that eating and drinking was impossible, and was going to spend what remaining days or hours he had being dogged by coyotes. Certainly not a fate deserving of such a beautiful animal. Our satisfaction came in putting this buck out of it's misery. And, yes we kept and hope to enjoy eating it.
I read on an earlier post about a incredable 300 yard head shot. I don't want to detract from the success of that hunt. I do know first hand what a poorly placed shot can result in, and a large deers brain is much smaller than it's heart. Know your gun, know your capabilities, be sure of your shot, and have a safe successful enjoyable hunt.

[WaterDog]

Nice post and congrats! :smile: At least it won't go to waste.

Know your gun, know your capabilities, be sure of your shot, and have a safe successful enjoyable hunt.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Exactly! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[ 10-15-2003, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: WaterDog ]

[chummer]

regardless of the gun or shooter's capabilities, a 300 yard head shot attempt is a demonstration of extremely poor judgement! [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[Bait O' Eggs]

regardless of the gun or shooter's capabilities, a 300 yard head shot attempt is a demonstration of extremely poor judgement!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Depending on the situation I have to disagree. There are times 300 yards hitting a snoose can lid is not that hard for some people. You need to factor in things like known distance (range finder), wind, caliber, rest etc....

The head may or may not get shot at, but I always think head shot first, and if I dont feel comfortable with it, I move to the body. 30/30 open sights and you are thinking body at 100 yards, bigger caliber and a scope the range moves out for a head shot. ]

We have ex-seal snipers on this forum that I believe would think nothing of shooting 300 yards at a head in the right circumstance.

FB - nice job on harvesting a wounded animal that would have gone to waste.

[ 10-15-2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

BOE,
I disagree. Too many variables when hunting and the average shooter can't handle them. Go for the "Big Target". A lung shot kills quite well.

[chummer]

BOE: I'm disagreeing with your head 1st choice. The objective is a clean kill. Brain size of your typical deer: about 5", Lungs: about 15" It's a "No Brainer" (Pun Intended) The problem with the Ex-SEAL is that there are way too many guys who ain't ex-seals, who, when they get a bolt action rifle in their hands, THINK they are SEAL snipers. The objective of a SEAL sniper is also a clean kill, however, lung shots in human beings are a survivable injury with surgical intervention. The same cannot be said for a deer or elk, unless you have a PETA lovin veterinarian with a mobile hospital on hand. A head shot should never be condoned as an acceptable 1st choice UNLESS you are a military sniper who's intended target is a human being.

[The Overfishin Condition]

I don't have the accuracy to be considering a head shot, but seems to me, that because the head is poked out there a ways, if you miss the head, in many cases you will miss the deer completely. I think that to me at least, and call me naive (flame proof suit on) that in some instances a head shot may be regarded as an all or nothing shot. Shooting a three hundred yard shot, if you aim for vitals and you miss, you probably have a bleeding deer on the run, but it may or may not fall quickly, plus, you have 300 yards to make up on the animal initially. There are some instances when the head may be the only vital area that presents itself.

[Washington Hunter]

If you go for the head shot and miss by just a couple inches, you can blow the jaw off, just like what happened here. So, it is not an "all or nothing" shot. It's unethical is what it is.

OFC,
Just about any hit in the front 2/3 of the chest is fatal. Hit the liver and they bleed to death quickly. A deer's brain is smaller than 5" and a hard target to hit on even a close walking animal.
Mid neck shots are better, at up to 100 yards, on slow moving animals.

Having been a competition shotgunner before I ever took up rifle shooting I am fairly good at running shots and have killed several running animals with instinct shots to the neck. When I have time I usually shoot for the chest first.
this opening day I hit a wounded deer in the nose and the bullet ended up in the top of the stomach. Needless to say the deer didn't move after I hit it.

[The Overfishin Condition]

Don't get me wrong, the fact of the matter is that shooting a deer, no matter where you aim, is about knowing your capabilities and your gun's capabilities. I fail to see how if a shooter is capable of shooting a deer in the head- from any distance, why it would be considered unethical? The above situation sounds like a guy not knowing his limitations, and making a mistake. However, don't preach to me about taking a shot I'm not sure I can convert. I'm not proud of this- but I've had good looks at deer, from 50 yards (running) to 100 yards (walking) to 200 yards (standing) in the last four of five years, mind you a pair of those were when I was 14 or 15, but in any case, the reason I didn't squeeze the shot off was that I wasn't 100% that I could hit it- and I'm proud I didn't shoot, it's easy to jump all over the trigger. Transversally, my uncle has shot his last three animals- two elk and a deer, in the head, none of them moved an inch after impact. Maybe head shots are at a smaller target, but if you can hit it- why is it unethical? This is a guy who might have wounded one animal in his lifetime, and he wasn't aiming for the head on that shot. I don't know many hunters, who've hunted for a lifetime who can say they've never once had an animal escape after a hit, and if you can- more power to you, sooner or later it just happens I think. Not that it's excuseable.

[Freighter Bait]

OC
You should be commended for knowing and staying withih your capabilities. I am proud to say my son has learned and practices that also. The experience and memory of the hunt is what lasts a life time. Success by harvesting an animal is secondary IMO.
This deer was wounded at under 75 yards(by the hunters account). This individuals poor planning and judgement made for a disappointing outcome. My second concern which hasn't been noted here was the lack of(IMO) appropriate follow up, even into a second day, by the hunter who initially wounded the animal. Understand that this was not a west side hunt. The area being hunted was rolling open hills with scattered blocks of timber, and aspen groves in creek bottoms. The biggest constraint was accessing connecting parcels of private property.
Our opening morning hunt was spoiled by a adjacent (40 acre) landowner(posted property) who felt the 500 acres we were hunting with permission, was his personnel hunting reserve.

[SLEDDER]

I have the military training to be able to take a head shot. I do not however have the rifle that I once had. Uncle Sam has far more dollars than I. It alls depends on the conditions, wind, angle, range ect. ect.. I would rather watch an animal walk away than wound it. If animal is wounded or suspected of being so, you should look real hard to put your conscience at rest. I personally would look at least two days, and I would still feel bad. Many shots have been passed on, both with bow and rifle. On a human you have the no flinch zone in the shape of a 50 cent piece it is much harder to hit than a deer, or elk head. Humans are not tough like an animal so you can also be off a inch or so and it still does the job. (small caliber)

[id. painter]

A head shot in the brain will kill ,,, but if you hit the nose or the jaw or antler you will loose the animal.
I have recovered several deer and an elk that were hit by someone else, one was in the nose and three jaw shot. You are always taking a risk of cripple , that risk is higher by shooting for the head. Absolutly no doubt in my mind . I also had a friend try a head shot on a Whitetail. He shot, then shot again and then again. The deer fell , It had holes in both ears and a killing shot at the base of the neck where head and neck come together. If the third had missed the animal would have run off .
My father was a crack shot .I have watched as he cleanly killed deer with one shot to the base of the head where the neck joins the head.I personally saw him do it at 275 yards and call the shot. Good rest no wind and not winded.
But my father will be the first to admit that if you try to shoot for the neck you (he did) loose some deer that he would have other wise killed very easily with a lung shot.
The margin of error becomes that much smaller . On a neck shot if you hit high you can clip the spine but if you hit at all low, you will hit nothing that will put a sure quick kill on the animal . Shoot them in the lungs ,, safest, best shot of all. id. painter

[WildHawg]

Unless you have an anomometer, quality rangefinder, your ballistics table, and a scope which calibrates for windage, declination, and range, I believe it is irresponsible in most cases to take any truly long range shots (for most people shooting high caliber scoped rifles this is around 250+ yards), unless the animal has been previously wounded.
There are too many variables to consider, and the majority of people do not shoot other than to sight their rifles in. If one does shoot this far, a body shot is highly preferable to a head neck shot. I realize that many times the head neck may be all that presents itself, but if you choose to point your weapon at another living creature, it is your duty and responsibility to dispatch your target with efficiency. 1/2 the head, and 2/3rds of the neck will not bring a deer or elk down permanently...you will still have to get a shot into its vitals or it will blow out of the country and crawl into the biggest hellhole it can find to lay down and die in.
Once you pull the trigger, there's no taking back your shot--and I can tell you from experience that wounding, then losing an animal due to poor shot placement is one of the worst feelings I've ever experienced.
I've seen many people shoot 400-800 yards across canyons at deer and elk, claim they were sure they didn't hit 'em, then drive off without even looking. That kind of behavior is below contempt.
I've shot numerous critters that it was difficult to tell were mortally wounded before they got out of my sight. Only way I knew was to look where I shot them. "If you shoot, you go look" is the rule in my parties.
As for the difference of shooting at a human verses a deer, unless a human is lying down (a poor target for a sniper) his vitals are on a vertical plane. It is much easier to hit the vital area in the head/neck because of the proximity of the spine/brain on a vertical target.
Deer are on the horizontal, with their jaws/snout constituting 1/2 their head. I've seen 2 deer that I found dead over the years in this condition, and several others that were harvested with another shot.
I know BOE and his redneck buddies from Tillamook (most are my buddies too) are some excellent shooter/trackers, and capable of knowing what shots to take and what shots to pass on. Most people don't hunt or shoot near as much as many of them do. I still feel though, that a "ribcage" shot on a game animal (whole different world in the military) is far and away the most responsible AND highest percentage shot you can take.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I see I ruffled some feathers I am always willing to get a good discussion going

I think I have been batted around enough without stepping back in :tongue: I said "Depending on the situation" and I guess I have seen several situations that a head shot was the shot that was presented and I was sure I could make it. A moving animal is not a good candidate for a head shot.

The last head shot I took at a deer was on a warm sunny day, no wind, animal was laying facing me. All I could see was his head and antlers out of the ferns. I had a big stump for a rest and it was 250 yards. The animal saw me and I knew if I moved any closer it would jump and run, which is a poor shot at best. I took the shot and split the skull in 1/2 removing one of the antlers in the process. I was about an inch higher than I wanted to be. My gun is sighted in for 300 yards so a 300 yard shot does not require any guess work. I have the ballistic table for my gun taped on the butt. I get a lot of comments on it when people see it, but I have shot at every hundred yards, typed up my actual bullet location and have it taped to the side of my butt where my cheek goes. Always nice to take a quick check before guessing where to hold.

I have to admit I have taken shots when I was young and dumb that I wouldnt take now. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] In the process I have killed animals that I would not kill now. First and foremost was a 650 yard shot "off hand, no rest" at a walking 4 point bull that was just stepping into a brush hole that had no end. He was walking straight up the hill away from me, and I had the entire body for the bullet to drop thru. I had just ran and I mean ran about 1/2 mile to get into position and still hadnt caught my breathe. Broke his back on the first shot and he rolled back into the opening he was standing in where I finished him off. I would not take that shot now.

Some of those old redneck buddies Wildhawg talks about, use to go shoot holes in a deers ear for fun [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] Ever seen a deer with a pierced ear, I might be able to guess who has been in the area, assuming he isnt in jail now days. Days long gone, and probably a good thing.

BoE,
No beatings here :grin:

One of the worse shots that I ever did was a head shot on a deer that was about 35yds away and my scope was fogged up. I put the cross hairs on the shinny black spot and pulled the trigger. The bullet went down the sinus cavity and blew the lower jaw off. The deer jumped over a ledge and I thought it was gone. I was bummed out as I walked over to where the deer disappeared. There was a small muskeg pond below the ledge and the deer was stuck in the mud almost up to its belly with its head down completely bleed out. The bullet blew both of the veins out of its neck and caused MASSIVE damage to its throat. This was the last time I’ve done a head shot.