Trout Creek Disappointment

WildHawg · 10-14-2003, 06:07 AM

Helped a friend hunt last week in the Trout Creek Unit--very disheartening.
I realize that the weather was far to warm for good hunting, however we put on many miles both on foot and in vehicles without seeing near the sign I saw last year.
The area in which I saw a 30" and a 28" buck last year had 2 sets of cougar tracks (definitely different animals) on opposite ends of the ridge, and absolutely NO sign less than a few weeks old.
Probably spoke with every hunter in the area (only 53 tags), and NO ONE killed anything truly big, much less outstanding.
2 gentlemen from John Day (both Forest Service employees who know how to find deer) stated that the had seen a total of 10 bucks by the end of day 8, with only one little 4 point after hunting very hard. They were ready to kill just to fill their freezers--which is something you shouldn't have to do in Oregon's "best" Mule Deer hunt.
We finally found a decent (24") four point which we determined would work, given the situation.
On our pack out, I stumbled across a 2-3 day old Cougar kill of a heavy horned 3 by 4 which had been half eaten and buried not a half mile from where we found Les' buck. Four hunters told us they'd seen Cougar's, and most said they'd seen sign. Only thing I can figure is that this area is being highly depredated by some of the highest cat numbers in history.
The class of bucks that should be trophies now is nearly absent, despite excellent winter conditions since 1994.
The Steens are even worse, judging by my converstions with hunters there. The Eastern Slope has virtually no deer, and few on the west slope.
I spend alot of time in this country--it is not improving like the biologist's would like you to think.
I would not waste my preference points at this time on either of these hunts which is unfortunate, as my wife and son could draw in the next couple of years.

Bait O' Eggs · 10-14-2003, 06:55 AM

Thanks for the report, I applied for Steens Mtn deer hunt for my first choice this year. Sounds like it might have been a good thing I didnt get it.

skein · 10-14-2003, 07:21 AM

I just got back from 5 days in the Silver Lake area and your report sounds downright positive compared to what we found over there. At least you saw deer.

In all that time I never heard a gun go off, never saw a deer hanging in a camp, and never talked to anyone who had even seen a deer - buck, doe, or fawn.

I'm pretty familiar with that area and covered miles and miles and never even saw a track, much less an animal, even around the water. Others shared the same story. Yeah, there were lots of road hunters, but there were also a lot of guys who put in the miles on foot and were just bewildered by the lack of animals or sign.

Cougars? Maybe. Coyotes? Maybe. Lack of water? Maybe. Whatever it is, the deer aren't doing well over there. Not at all.

Skein

dewfish · 10-14-2003, 07:51 AM

I hunted the north side unit north of john day and I saw far to many cougar tracks. Along with many bear tracks. Talk to local farmers that said he has twenty plus does in one meadow. Come spring he has 40 plus animals with fawns. this year he saw only eight fawns and only 7 does. He has lived in long creek his hole life and says after 10 yrs. the cats are distorying the woods. I saw only 9 deer hanging after 6 days in the woods.

Ras · 10-14-2003, 01:22 PM

Well Wildhawg and dewfish, I have to agree. I am very familiar with both the areas you mention: have hunted the Trout Creeks for rifle 3 times, antelope twice, and my wife had the sheep tag last year. I have also been chasing around down there during that traditional season the last 3 years. It aint gettin' no better!!!! Have talked to enough biologists, BLM employees, and locals, as well as seeing the changes over the last 20+ years to know all is not good in the Trout Creeks. It's tough; I love the country, but it is a long way to go and has less to offer than ever. I keep talking about organizing a cat hunt down there in the winter, if anyone is interested. If you roughly figure 1 cat takes 1 deer / week, it would not take much to double the deer herd!

As far as John Day / Long Creek goes, I have been chasing around with my old man down there off and on for 35 years. Used to be crazy with deer; now there seem to be fewer all the time. I did get some encouragement this last month though, seeing 40-50 does and fawns/yearlings. Few bucks though. Never used to hear of cats in there, and rarely of bears. Heck, they trapped that wolf not too far east of there about 2 1/2 years ago. I guess the predators go where the living is good. I just hope the living gets better in the years to come.

Sorry to hear your disappointment in the Trout Creeks, that is such are hard to come by and coveted tag. Shall we make a trip down there in a few months for some other "big game"?

Snapset · 10-14-2003, 03:41 PM

Glad (sort of ) to hear our party was not the only one with rotten luck. We hunted Owyhee unit and got there 3 days early for scouting as it was our first year in this unit. We Scouted 3 days, hunted 2, and saw no horns except for a small fork in the back of an outfitters truck coming off a large ranch. By Monday we had had enough and called it. First time ever skunked for this party.

REEL HANDEL · 10-14-2003, 06:52 PM

Our party hunted the Malhuer river unit 5 of us and only one 3 pt. small. seen and found 3shulls of good 4pts one party in the area had seen 4 catsthis was worst year except 1 for us in 30 years

MarlinMark · 10-14-2003, 07:23 PM

Ras, Wildhawg, I'll go for a cat hunt down there. Spot and stalk, calling?

I talked to a rancher out of Prineville that had two juvenille cats in his feedlot the day before and the government trapper had trapped 3 cougars in a week of the land right across the road. We can get to this place in half the time.?.?

Mark

Joe · 10-14-2003, 07:51 PM

Thanks for the report Wildhawg. I know I won't be waiting eight years to hunt there. I have yet to talk to anyone who put in the time to draw that tag who felt it was worth the wait.

Leatherneck · 10-15-2003, 01:57 AM

After reading this post I might have to reconsider trout creek. What do you think 6wapati6. Between the 2 of us we have 12 preference points and could go anywhere in oregon except for the trout creek unit.

skein · 10-15-2003, 07:11 AM

Ras, Wildhawg, MarlinMark,

I'd go for a cat hunt. I'm a pretty experienced coyote caller, but have never had a cat come in. In fact, I don't know much about hunting them, but had already figured I would start learning.

Let's see... a big cat kills about 1 1/2 deer a week on average. That's 78 deer a year. Figure 30 cats in an area the size of the Trouts (probably more) and suddenly that's 2,300+ deer a year. And that doesn't count coyotes or normal mortality. Hmmmmm... maybe we can help "normalize" that equation.

Disclaimer: Other than the number of kills per week, my numbers have no basis in science. Just a guess, but I'll bet I'm not far off.

Skein

[ 10-15-2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: skein ]

Rauly · 10-15-2003, 07:19 AM

Hey Skein

Have tag
Will travel

Also a pretty good varmit caller.

Hmmm....maybe an IFISH cat hunt. :shocked:

Rauly

MarlinMark · 10-15-2003, 07:27 AM

Skein,

I would guess that the cats aren't getting that many deer a week but, rather that they could if their habitat would allow it. I suspect that if there was a very expensive study done it would show a curve demonstrating that as the prey decreases so do the number of kills per week. Which is how we get suburban problems (not to even touch the subject of juvenile males needing territory too.)

I am up for a cat hunt. I bet that with an electronic call set up down in a flat and 3-5 guys in cammo glassing from a vantage place we could spot one trying to sneak in on the call box. :smile: Who gets to shoot first? "When there's lead in the air, there's hope!" This is an experiment that needs investigating. Maybe we could make up a "Posse" name and everything. Cammo shirts with logos/badges....wow, I'm getting carried away. That always happens when I start thinking of "the next hunt."

Gotta run. I will be keeping my eye on this thread.

Mark

Bait O' Eggs · 10-15-2003, 07:30 AM

Did somebody say ifish cat hunt? :shocked: :shocked: Count me in

Since it is illegal to use dogs to track cats, do you think we could get a truffle finding pig to track a cat for us. :whazzup:

A co-worker just this morning asked me what I would charge to "take care of"

his house cat, it keeps leaving presents in his tub at night.

I declined my service, but this cat hunt in trout creek sounds like something I would be interested in.

skein · 10-15-2003, 07:40 AM

I have an electronic caller, but rarely use it anymore. But... it still works and I have a good selection of tapes. I also have access to another caller with a remote control that's good for a couple hundred yards. It runs off of CD's so control is instant and it sounds pretty good.

I think the key is location and patience. They don't seem to charge in like 'yotes do. I do know of a couple guys that have had 'em come in when they were coyote calling though, so it can work. I even went out an bought the call one guy used to call in two or three.

MarlinMark, does this mean we have to come up with a secret handshake and everything? Matching ghillie suits?

Uh... does anybody have a goat?

We've gotta do this!

Skein

tailchaser · 10-15-2003, 07:55 AM

Man, I'd be game for nailing a kitty or two to the wall also. The .300 mag would make sure they wouldn't get far from the crosshairs. Goats might be hard to conjure up, but I'm sure a sheep or two could be bartered from the locals. At least if they weren't dating at the time.

I know a group of guys who hunted the steens this year and killed three in one day! :shocked: Craziness I tell ya it's time to start regulating that's for sure.

tc

6wapiti6 · 10-15-2003, 08:15 AM

I've been waiting with leatherneck for 6 years to draw a trout creek or steens tag and by the sounds of this I'm not sure I want too :whazzup: Looks like it's time to do some more research and put those points to good use. As for the cats, if a someone is going to make a trip, please let me know. I'd love to go and find some kitties!

Bait O' Eggs · 10-15-2003, 08:38 AM

Oh KETA.... are you there KETA?....... how much do you want for a couple sheep

Killertraylor · 10-15-2003, 12:25 PM

That sucks. I used to hunt the Trout Creeks as a kid growing up in K.Falls and had some tremendous hunts there. One good thing I've heard recently about the Northside unit is that the elk are doing excellent even though the deer might not be. I'm hunting on a private ranch there with a LOP tag this year and all the bowhunters I talked to who hunted the ranch saw many more elk there and bigger bulls than previous years.

birdhunter · 10-15-2003, 12:38 PM

Come winter when there is snow on the ground they are very easy to track. Find a deer wintering range and look to the nearest draws/canyons. Abert rim, base of Coleman/Hart Mt., Doherty Rim, etc. Guaranteed cougars. Call if you like, but yes, you can track them down on foot. It's open country and tawny brown shows up real well on white snow.

I'm always up for a cat hunt, but don't kid yourselves thinking that they are the only or even major cause of mule deer decline. We have a lot more habitat issues. Just because there are plants there and just because it is green, doesn't mean it has much nutritional value.

Ras · 10-15-2003, 02:19 PM

Let's do this "Cats in the Trout Creek's" thing! I know most of the range very well, and have a couple of wintering ranges pegged. And yes, Winter would be the best time for OUR time.

Here's a couple of other ideas:
-Catnip (I am growing my own

)
-A calling tape called "Mating Mountain
Lions"

Just a couple of ideas to add to the arsenal.

As we approach December-February let's put it together!

Ras

Mello-Yello · 10-15-2003, 02:57 PM

Hmmm, being a life-long bowhunter, I've always just hoped I'd have a crack at a cat w/bow in hand, realizing the odds don't favor me. I've often contemplated sighting in the old .06 and giving cat-hunting a try, but always thought it would be a whole lot of time driving there only to convince myself that I was only dreaming. Now, with cat populations up, I'm feeling a renewed interest. A gang-hunt certainly sounds like fun. I sure don't wanna be the guy camo'd into the same hillside that Mr. Cat is on when all hell breaks loose though. :shocked:

I've got a few friends that have tracked cats after a fresh snow. Here's what I've learned from them.
1. Cats cover ALOT of ground.
2. There's a reasonable chance the tracks will take you to a buried kill. He will return!
3. Even though you may have never seen a cat, money has it that dozens, if not hundreds, have seen you, often at very close range. <insert hair on neck standing on end>
4. It's cold. If you're gonna sit on a buried kill, you better not move much. Cold and not moving are by no means synonomous.

Let's do it!

skein · 10-15-2003, 05:45 PM

Ras,

Sounds like we're up for it.

What's the logistics of a trip over to the Trouts in the winter? If we talk about what we need, we can start gathering the stuff. For example, I've got a camp trailer, two 4-wheelers, a crewcab pickup, and a shelter like the Forest Service uses to set up fire camps (it looks like a yurt). I've got the two electronic callers I mentioned earlier, and, oh, yeah, a 22-250 that is called Death. :grin:

It's never too early to plan - and dream.

Skein

Taylor's viewpoint · 10-15-2003, 05:53 PM

Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty. Count me in if I can work it in to my busy schedule. Lets see: Deer Hunting, Elk Hunting, Fall Chinook fishing, Winter Steelhead fishing, so many tasks, so little time. Oh did I mention Honey-dos.
TV

nerta · 10-15-2003, 05:56 PM

As I read all of the responses to this post I wonder why doesn't each and every hunter that hunts anything buy a couger tag. Then they can shoot any that they see. You can hunt them almost all year. Thats what I do and I've never seen a couger since I started buying the tag. Just figures my luck.

Mello-Yello · 10-15-2003, 07:28 PM

I don't remember ever NOT buying a cat tag, yet I've never "hunted" them.

I say we call this group of cat-hunters "The Regulators", kinda like from the movie "Young Guns". By the time we're done, the tree-huggers will be promoting dog-hunting so the cats have a chance. :grin:

[ 10-15-2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Mello-Yello ]

Ras · 10-15-2003, 09:57 PM

I am pretty free from Mid-January on. I know that is putting things off a bit, but business wise, that is how my schedule works out. Anyway, it should be peak wintering-area time!

I am thinking groups of 2-4 guys (depending on participation) spread out over a couple of locations. Calling over catnip piles, near wintering deer, antelope, and sheep herds should get us a kitty, or 5!!!

A year or 2 in the Trout Crks., then next maybe the Steens? Then???? Let's put the trophy's back in our "Trophy Deer Hunts".

(Sorry, I get a bit carried away when talking about that area. It truly needs some help!)

Ras

PS - It has been many years, but if I recall correctly, I really like to drill holes with my
25-06 :grin:

WildHawg · 10-16-2003, 05:45 AM

Sheesh--I leave for a day, and you guys just take off without me :tongue: !
I absentmindedly forgot to buy a cougar or a bear tag this year :blush: , however I would go coyote hunting in the Trout Creek with any of ya'all while you cougar hunt.
This is truly magical country, and I have no doubt cougars are having a major impact on the herds there.
Birdhunter: I know you are telling the truth when it comes to the majority of Eastern Oregon--habitat quality has declined significantly.
I would argue that the Trout Creek, Oregon Canyon, and possibly the Steens Mountains are the exception.
It is more than green there in some areas. There are 6 foot high Bitterbrush and even taller sage in places, with high concentrations of forbes and other browse everywhere. The buck I took last year, and the one my friend took this year were both VERY fat compared to average mule deer I've killed/seen.
Nutritional value is difficult to quantify when it comes to minerals needed to build good horns, but the evidence of protein availability is very high.
Many of these deer seems to winter in the hills also, despite the alfalfa available in the bottoms. I found many shed horns on sidehills fully 1000-2000 feet of elevation above the bottoms. If the feed there can sustain them in winter, I should think it is nutritious.
Cougar's no doubt play a role, as do countless other factors: from illegal harvest to predation by other carnivores etc.
Cougar's are not solely to blame--but there seems to be an unhealthy ratio of deer to cougars, and a hunt sure could help.
I have a good idea where to set up, especially on the Trout Creek side, and would expect to find something worth killing.
Let's do it!!
Here kitty, kitty, kitty!
I like "The Regulator's". let's come up with some other names too. If we're gonna trek halfway across the country--we oughta have a name!

skein · 10-16-2003, 06:15 AM

Not to get detoured with the tag issue, but that's exactly why I buy the Sportspac every year. One trip to the man and I'm covered. Yeah, I still have to go back in and pick up tags or get validated for birds, but then I'm good to go. Mostly I get my money's worth too, hunting or fishing for just about everything out there. Even the stuff I don't pursue doesn't amount to more than the cost of a dinner out for my wife and I, and it's good for the entire year.

So, yep, have cougar tag, will travel. :grin:

Skein

Bait O' Eggs · 10-16-2003, 06:16 AM

I can see this shaping up much like a swordfishing trip

We will need shirts made up, Maybe something like "team kitty" The other "P" word I tried was filtered out

It looks like the season is open all months except June and July.

If we dont go till after January, Wildhawg can purchase a 2004 tag and join in the hunt.

tailchaser · 10-16-2003, 06:28 AM

I just had three friends get back from the steens and they hunt soley for large bucks and on average fill their tags every year they draw a tag over there. Well their stories of the hunt were far and few between and none of them shot a buck. They saw a lot in the 22-26" range but nothing like they've seen in the past. The most disturbing thing is one of the ranchers has had 11 cougars taken off of his property alone this year!!!!!!! :shocked: They've been predatation tags issued by ODFW because they're starting to pick off his livestock. Craziness I tell ya. Regulators, mount up!

tc

Gun Rod Bow · 10-16-2003, 05:45 PM

Sorry to hear about your tough luck Chuck.

(Luck rhymes with Chuck...get it? nevermind)

I took a buck in the TC'c in '95 and saw a WHOPPER, but even then the coyote predation was apparent, as was the effects of the '94 winterkill.

I've heard about the "Puma Problem" in the WhiteHorse and nearby units. We have even lost beef calves to cougars in Lane County even before the Bear and Cougar Law.

I have a friend with very special insight into the state trappers in Oregon. I would be happy to make inquiries, but if I were going after cougars, I'd wait until late winter when the deer are in herds and the cats are hungry, hopefully with some fresh snow.

I may be coerced into a trip over east. I'd do some checking with the local state trapper first.

I'm thinking February. That would solve your tagless dilema as well.

[ 10-16-2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Gun Rod Bow ]

Swamp Puppy · 10-16-2003, 06:45 PM

i might be able to make that cat hunt. i'll have to wait and see once we narrow down a date.

skein · 10-16-2003, 07:04 PM

I tend to agree with GRB about the timing of the hunt - but there ain't no way I'm gonna wait that long.

I'm thinking right after elk season, maybe around the holidays would be a good time for an exploratory/scouting trip. The main thing we need is snow for locating and tracking. There's also gotta be a learning curve associated with hunting cats, so even if we don't score the first time we're gonna learn a thing or two.

I'm certainly up for a couple of trips down there.

PS. I have a personal cougar story to tell, but will wait until we're closer to trip-time to tell it. Birdhunter has a pretty good one too.

Skein

Ras · 10-16-2003, 09:57 PM

Yeah, this is working out just fine

Have wanted to put a hurtin' on them cats down there for several years. And yes, I have a story or two from down there to. And yes again, I have a 2003 tag I need to get out of my wallet; of course to make room for my 2004 tag :grin:

And I hear they aint to bad tastin' either. First things first though.

Ras

Gun Rod Bow · 10-17-2003, 09:19 AM

Fresh snow, quick notice, early late glassing and scouting, chukar chasing during the day...got potential.

skein · 10-17-2003, 09:32 AM

You're singing my song.... I had actually forgotten about the chukar chasing potential.

What does a guy do for a weather report over there? Can you draw any conclusions from Denio or McDermitt?

I guess I could just head on over and send reports back as they come in. :grin:

Tooo much fun!

Skein

Ras · 10-17-2003, 09:49 AM

O.K., I must admit that chukar are on my mind as well.

I also know a rancher that lives right at the base on the east side who has lived there all his life. Good weather contact.

Ras

WildHawg · 10-17-2003, 10:16 AM

Lots of chukars on the Trout Creek side. Very few on Oregon Canyon. I don't have an upland dog, but I could sure point you guys in the right direction. Came across numerous coveys hunting.

sturgn · 10-19-2003, 01:36 PM

If you guys are serious and have room I would love to get in on this! Have big Dodge diesel and atv will travel, my only problem is I work weekends, but only 3 days so I have lots of time off during the week! I dont have a kitty tag, but I will go along for some dogs and birds... I will be watching this thread!

skein · 10-27-2003, 07:36 PM

It's not just the Trouts that are in trouble. I'm posting this link to a Eugene Register Guard article about the effects of the big cats in Wallowa county.

Elk Tag Numbers Down

Wow!

Thanks, BrokeItOff, for the link.

Skein

[ 10-27-2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: skein ]

Mello-Yello · 10-27-2003, 08:12 PM

Wow! :shocked:

I'm just curious...

What sort of action would it take to get dog hunting back? I sense that once it happened, everyone just shrugged their shoulders, dropped their heads in disappointment and wandered back to wherever they came from.

sturgn · 10-31-2003, 04:51 PM

O.K. I am getting ready to order my cat barrel, I am getting a 26" .22-250 Heavey Barrel(Hopefully Fluted) for my encore, it may leave a bigger hole than needed but atleast that will be one less kitty on the run! Any suggestions on a good scope for this type of varmint rifle?