Carbon Arrows, Fall Away Rests?

[dla]

Run, don't walk to carbon arrows. The sooner you get away from the pop cans the better. Carbons are stiffer, but the real reason that they penetrate better is that they are thinner - so don't fall into the trap of buying fat carbons. Fat carbons exist because of game players, not hunters. The old Beeman Hunter (16/64) is the best carbon and I happen to be a big fan of glue on broadheads because the overall shaft diameter is smaller. Again, fat carbons are not good, but they are not as bad a fat pop cans.

[Spotted Owl]

IMO carbons are far better than than the others. I shoot a Martin at 70 with a 31 inch draw. Two aluminum arrows I have shot at two different Elk have bent Both with direct hit to only one rib. One shot only hit one lung the other bent and went through the liver. Both under 30 yards. Both long tough tracking jobs. I thought that 100 grain thunderheads seamed to wonder a bit so I went back to the 125's. I changed to a trophy taker fall way rest this year. So far so good the steepest down hill I have shot was on a slope that when you stand and put your elbow out it touches the hillside. That shot got me a 5x6 no problems with the rest or the arrows. The only carbon shaft I have had break was front on spine shot to a bear through the chest while it was standing. Good luck with the fall away and the carbons.

[nitrobass]

This was my first year with carbons and I'm pretty happy with them. I shot 31" aluminums for years and shot lots of elk and deer with them. Plenty of pass throughs and a few 'dead in their tracks hits'. I shot a 2514 XX75 which handled a big broadhead really well and shot somewhat fast. Everyone seems to be so addicted to arrow speed anymore I think its hilarious. I think most people would benifit by dropping down their draw weights and concentrating more on technique and form than what the chronograph said..but I'm rambling so back to the carbons.
This year I went to 28" PSE carbon force 400's and they shot well. I had problems with knocks coming off after misses, and quite a few broken arrows this spring and summer. They do shoot straight and hit hard, but they definitely dont seem to hold up well if you hit dirt or wood. So I guess as long as I dont miss I'll be ok? I'll experiment with arrows next year.

For broadheads I shoot G5 Montec 100grains...great heads.

[tailchaser]

I have a mathews and shoot carbons with a trophy taker fall away so maybe I can help here. There is some logic in going to a carbon over alum's for the reason's you mentioned but I'll start with one thing. The more speed you pick up in going to carbon's the harder it's going to be to tune correctly. I would say at least 3X as hard in time taken to make the carbon fly and papertune exactly. However, once you're there it's a world apart from alum's. Alum's will fly straighter with less preciseness with tuning your bow. This is why you see the flex in the arrow in a lot of cases and how it wobbles in the air. That alone can cause problems with accuracy.

Penetration will also depend on your entire setup, more than anything. The mathews is a good start, with your draw I would shoot a 300 spine carbon with 100 grain heads. You should have more than enough kinetic energy to blast through most animals. Carbon's are also more tempermental with tuning heads and amplify problems if not tuned right from the added speed. Two blade heads fly very nice as well as certain 3 or 4 blades. But you'll notice some brands really crap out when they get above certain speeds.

The carbons will give great penetration, but I can't say in the end if it will ever be truely proven one is better than the other. Mostly because alums are heavier than the carbons and it's hard to put them on the same measuring table unless you get the kinetics exactly the same balancing weight and speed. What it does give you though is the opportunity to shoot through smaller windows and have the animal being less likely to jump a string. It's also more forgiving on yardage estimation. My 20 and 30 yard shots are within 2" of each other. 20-40 is about 6-7, so within that range chance are I'm going to get him being within reasonable range. Once you see these advantages first hand you'll never shoot alum's again. There are some wive's tails about carbon's out there from traditional alum shooters but most are generated from the early carbons (shattering, ect.....).

As of the fall away rest I haven't had a problem yet. It was a pain to properly adjust my nock to it (move it a little higher) but there's enough tension on the arrow that it stays put while at full draw in any hunting circustance. If you're a die hard tree stand guy and shoot straight down you may have one, not sure but I typically don't see those shots. But at all bow shoots and places I've gone it's never fallen off.

One word of advice is don't buy cheap arrows when it comes to carbons. The better manufacturers (carbon express, easton, beamon) are that way for a reason. They have thicker walls and are worth paying extra for. If you find particular problems with it let me know and I can see if I can help out. It's definitely frustrating but well worth it in the end.

tc

[Bait O' Eggs]

Also has anyone had experience shooting a fall away rest on a very steep down angle?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Everything is an uphill shot from where I stand

[Bubzilla]

Carbon arrows have undergone some major improvements over the last ten years. I first started experimenting with them in '93, and hunted with both the original Beman Hunters and Easton Carbons along about that time. Todays carbon and carbon/aluminum composite shafts have internal nocks and inserts which are more durable and more accurate than the old style--which slipped over the shaft. Also, the process used to make them has improved--resulting in straighter shafts and better safety.

In 2001 I went to a Trap Door fall away rest, and have been shooting Beman Matrix arrows off of it. The nice thing about the Matrix arrow is that it's a combination aluminum/carbon shaft. As a result it's staighter than all carbon shafts--meaning more accurate--but more durable than all aluminum shafts because of the carbon coating. Expensive, though. Used with the fall away rest I've started getting some amazing groups--much better than I thought I'd ever shoot, frankly. And, the Matrix arrows have performed well on the animals I've harvested--all pass thru shots.

Carbon arrows tend to do two things: penetrate more deeply, and last longer. They penetrate more deeply because of basic physics: they're made of a denser material and therefore more efficiently transfer kinetic energy. They last longer because carbon is tougher than aluminum.

The fall away rest is great. No tuning. The only draw back to the Trap Door model that I have is that it must be cocked by hand--which does make an audible "click." So you have to remember to have that done BEFORE your nose-to-nose with your intended prey. But that's a minor complaint.

I'd say you wouldn't regret making the change--in either respect.

[Mello-Yello]

There's no way I can stay out of this conversation.

The latest Bowhunter magazine has a really interesting article concerning arrow setups. It's a technical article, and won't give you an opinion, but it tends to disprobe many myths. You should be able to draw your own conclusions. I won't go into it, buy the magazine.

I keep hearing a few things that just drive me crazy.
1. Smaller diameter shafts penetrate better. Using bullet points, absolutely! Using broadheads, I doubt it's even measurable. Think about it. The broadhead makes the hole in the flesh, and detaches all the skin, grisle and muscle tissue in that area. So what is going to create resistance on the shaft? Nothing...
2. Carbon is stiffer than aluminum. So, are you saying carbon will have a stiffer spine? That's nuttier than squirrel poop. Carbon corrects faster than aluminum, and that is probably where this misunderstanding originates. No matter what material you are using, you still need a particular spine (stiffness) for your setup.
3. Pass-thru's are desirable. I can take them or leave them, but if I had my druthers, I'd prefer that arrow staying in the animal. You'll get tons of blood cuz the arrow keeps the hole from clotting up, and moreso, I like the thought of that broadhead being jammed around inside the animal when it bumps that arrow on a limb/bush/whatever.
4. Arrow speed vs. accuracy. If you can sling an arrow tipped w/a broadhead at 300+ fps, have right at it. Few people can, especially when you shoot 100cc of pure adrenaline into your heart. You want the most forgiving setup you can find, within reason. Most experts say ~280 fps is the max you want to sling your hunting arrows. I agree. Speed is great. It allows several sight pins to settle in the chest on a 30 yd shot. But do you really need that? For 3D, you bet! For hunting? Only if you suck bad at judging distance (in which case you should stick to closer shots).
5. Fallaway rests. I've yet to use one. I fully support their purpose, but only if for some reason you can't get complete clearance. The only reasons that really make sense to me is if your either using super-thin arrows, or 5" or larger fletching.
6. Microtechnicalexactlyperfect. We tend to try to narrow everything down to the cuzzillionth of an inch tolerance. Then when we pull up to full draw and start aiming at a target 30 yds away, our pin wanders 1" or more in every direction (if you're really steady). I agree that tolerances and tuning are important, but understand that your bow will do exactly the same identical thing shot after shot if you don't screw things up. That's where the inconsistency come in. Hence, good shooting form will get you further than anything else.

Ok, off the soapbox.

GRB, definetly go to carbons. You will love them because they are way more resilient than their aluminum counterparts. Don't buy the cheap ones, but don't get drawn into the 0.0001" straightness stuff either, unless you can hold your bow that steady.

Flame on!
:grin:
M-Y

[Gun Rod Bow]

Wow thanks everyone,

(except you BOE [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] )

I have had no real reason to quit on aluminums until this year. But I really believe I'd have tagged at least two elk this year with them instead of aluminums (AZ&OR) for the reasons that Tailchaser stated. Samller vertical window required, and less acuracy required in quick yardage estimates.

I had a bad experience chasing a 7x7 in NM that a friend arrowed with a carbon that was hit in what looked like a good shot on the outside, low, maybe 10" up from bottom line and about 12" behind the elbow.

From the outside it looked like lungs, but on the inside it merely nipped a lung, crossed over through the diaphram and sliced a piece of liver. The arrow stayed in and didn't "conduit" much blood.

10 hrs and 1 1/2 miles later that day, very lucky, and very determined tracking by the shooter and he recovered his trophy. But there was almost no blood.

As far as pass throughs go, I'll take a hole out each side over the broad head left in.

I also doubt shaft diameter affects penetration since the broadhead leads the way. My buddy who got a bull this year took the dreaded quartering towards shot at 30 yds. (first pin with carbons) and shot through the shoulder, through the heart and out behind the off shoulder. Now I'm not defending the shot selection, but he's having elk steaks tonight, and you have to admire the placement and arrow performance.

I'm expecting a major gear change, including knock point move.

It brings up another question, I've been using an in the string peep intead of the bungy cord type. Once in a while the string will twist and cut my view. Is this something that can be helped by a high quality aftermarket string?

Thanks again for your input.

[nitrobass]

I stopped using a 'bungee' peep for a couple of years and each ******* year it came back to haunt me. With fingers I could get the right twist most every time(or so I thought) but its no fun to look through a peep only to see a fraction of your window. I've always used aftermarket strings and that didnt seem to make a bit of difference. Its a pain maintaining rubber tubing but its a nice insurance for your peep to work right.

[Mello-Yello]

My Mathews (Q2XL)is running the standard Zebra twist, and I don't use a bungy. My peep is turned slightly counterclockwise at rest. Because I have a bowpress, I can play with it until it's 'just right'. Once it's set, I don't have to mess with it. note: I shoot with a release. If you use fingers, you'll most likely need a bungy. I just prefer to stay away from the bungy since they are notorious for getting hung up in brush and it's one more thing that can go wrong at the worse time.

I should probably retract my "pass-through" comment, as it depends so much on the shot angle. If I'm shooting down into an animal, pass-throughs are certainly preferred. I guess my point was, if you get a double-lung, you're gonna have more than enough blood to track, and the damage is already done. Pass-throughs just seem to be used as a measurement of setup, and I don't buy that. My first elk was a giant Roosy herd cow. Shot her with a 55# Pearson recurve with cedar shafts and bear razorheads. A clean passthrough and clipped rib too! Oh, and she was pushing 40 yards. Blew through her like butter.

RGB, your mathews shouldn't require much for nock adjustment, but definetly play with it. I start out with true 90deg, then raise it a smidge if at all (I don't actually raise it, I typically lower my arrow-rest).

If you're looking to tighten your pins, there are a number of things you can do to increase arrow speed (once you've exhausted bow poundage, arrow weight and good tuning). One is, don't use a bungy. You can usually gain a 1-3fps on that alone. If you use the crimp-on knock, try serving your own. Another 1-3 fps. The type of string silencer you use could be killing anywhere from 1-5 fps, possibly more! My bow is quiet enough that I don't even use string silencers (your Q2 shouldn't either). When you compare arrow speed to the speed of sound, it doesn't really make a lot of difference when you're shooting at an animal with ears bigger than your hands. Granted, a noisy bow,like my Martin Fury, which sounds like a .22 mag going off, it needs string silencers!

Sheesh, someone stop me! :shocked:

[dla]

If Elk were 6" wide from shoulder to shoulder then I would agree with you that shaft diameter has little to do with penetration.

But that ain't the case and shaft diameter is a huge part of penetration. Skinny shafts penetrate better than fat shafts. It isn't rocket science.

I remember trying to find a portable target that would stop a Muzzy-tipped Beeman Hunter at 240fps - what a joke! Only the "blocks" would stop them. Shot through every other "broadhead capable" target. Yes, they would stop pop cans but not the skinny carbon shafts.

The carbons could be shot straight into a rock and survive - only the nock would shatter. Pop cans were immediately trashed with that kind of abuse. The only thing that would kill a carbon is glancing off a rock/tree/etc.

[Mello-Yello]

My mistake dla, I thought we were talking about penetration on animals. You are right, smaller arrows will penetrate notably better on a compression target.

[Gun Rod Bow]

I'm planning on upgrading to carbon arrows. I think I'm going to a fall away rest at the same time.

I have been pretty happy with the accuracy of my XX75's and had quite a few when I bought my Mathews Q-2 3 years ago, so I stayed with aluminum.

I have had some awesome penetration results (mature bull elk, rib going in, out through the should blade on the off side, 20 yds) and some real poor pentration (1 lung, dead broadside, fk horn mulie at 40 yds). I also thought I should've killed a spike this year that I hit but didn't penetrate ribs on. I've been shooting XX75's in 2317 at 30" with 125 gr thunderheads. 70 lbs at 30" draw.

I watched the Carbon Express video and saw those Eastons flex like a wet noodle out of the bow, and more importantly on impact. Have heard alot about entrance and exit holes not lining up with aluminums (indicator of arrow torquing)

I'm intersted in comments and suggestions.

I will also have some arrows and 2 rests (Savage) for sale (one used, one spare).

I'm looking at the Carbon Express and dropping to 100 grains.

Any comments on heads? Also has anyone had experience shooting a fall away rest on a very steep down angle?

[Hoosier Daddy]

[dla]

I'll leave it to you rocket scientists to decide if penetration is penetration is penetration. Perhaps you can pat each other on the back when you've figured out how a broadhead makes a hole that magically stays open and doesn't close or drag on the arrow shaft while slicing through 2 foot of animal. Or better yet how penetration in equivalent mediums is somehow irrelevant to hunting.

Meanwhile, I've seen first hand a Beeman @220fps penetrate an Elk diagonally (through the grass bag and everything) - I don't think a pop can could've done it.

[tailchaser]

Back to your problem with the string twist, definitely go with an aftermarket string and I would highly advise the winner's choice sting and cable setup. Guaranteed for life and after approximately 10 shots the peep will be settled in and you can tie it off. Pretty much all of the professional shooters I know or have met use this setup. It will not stretch at all during the life of the string otherwise they'll replace it immediately. Gotta love quality and service in the same sentence.

tc

[Mello-Yello]

dla, you're right, this isn't rocket science. It's common sense. The difference we're talking about is...a compression target is designed to continue pinching the arrow shaft during penetration. Live tissue on the other hand retracts when it's cut. Essentially, muscle is always stretched. Imagine if you will, you take a real sharp knife and slice your forearm down to the bone. Are you going to feel your muscles try to grab the knife, or is your arm going to lay wide open?

I'm not arguing that you won't get better penetration using carbon, but I don't buy the 'resistance' claim. As I stated earlier, I feel it's probably immeasurable, especially when compared to other issues like broadhead sharpness, arrow speed, arrow weight, kinetic energy, etc, etc.

I shot 2413s (that's pretty darn fat) for years and never experienced penetration problems. They put down a ~1,200 lb Roosevelt, a nice spike Yellowstone and a 300 lb black bear and countless blacktails, each requiring only one shot and no tracking necessary (avg. distance travelled less than 50 yds).

I went to carbon for their durability, and to pursue a flatter trajectory. I've seen noted improvements in both. Oh, and carbon smaller dia. isn't as affected by side-winds.

IMHO, since carbon arrow prices have dropped so much in the past year, they are hands-down the way to go. They're either straight, or their ruined.

But "pop-cans" are are quite capable of providing a swift kill. If I'm not mistaken, Chuck Adams is still using aluminum...

[dimwit]

I switched to carbon a couple of years ago at the same time I switched to a single cam, a release and a fall away rest from round wheels, fingers and a flipper. Of course all of those factors added together made an incredible difference so its difficult to isolate just one. I previously shot 2315's (spears)and every animal I shot was a pass through, big hole and lots of blood. There wasn't much difference between field points and broadheads, but judging distance was critical. I had to limit shots to 30 yards and I still missed if I misjudged distance while under the influence of adreneline. Now I amaze myself at groups I shoot out to 50 yards with fieldtips. But the switch from field tips to broadheads is where you'll notice the difference. Plan on spending a lot of time and having your patience tested. Of all the changes I made, where I almost waivered was the tuning with broadheads on the carbons. I recommend you get some help from the pro shop where you buy your carbon arrows. If they won't/can't help, buy your arrows somewhere else. Since then I've shot 2 elk and 1 deer. Subjectively,I'm not convinced that the penetration and blood trails are as good, but the accuracy and better distance judging tolerance is worth the effort.

[Rauly]

Lets stick to the topic.

Rauly

[Mello-Yello]

:shocked: [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] :blush:

[Gun Rod Bow]

Been away from my post a little while.

Thanks all for your input. I've considered the Winners Choice strings and would like to stay with the in the string sight.

I think I can get good support from the shop where I buy my stuff for tuning etc.

I also am of the opinion that a large diameter aluminum shaft will "bleed" them better, but the increase in accuracy with carbons is more than an equitable trade.

I use no silencers on my Q-2 and see no need. The only string jumps I've had were looking at me.

Thanks again guys.

[Catch 22]

Beyond penetration and all the other factors, the big reason I made the switch was flight drop. I am absolutely amazed at how little the arrow drops at 40 yards. Most hunters miss animals because they either wig out (me) or they misjudge the distance. The carbons just buffer the distance factor so much, that I couldn't care less about all the other factors. By the way, I'm only shooting 260 fps.

[Mello-Yello]

260 fps isn't bad. Yeah you'll have more pin-gap, but that shouldn't give you too much trouble until you start exceeding 35-40 yards. Something that might help with your distance judging, I've been doing it the past several years when doing 3-D. Rather than dwell solely on what distance your target is, contemplate what distance you are sure it isn't. 40 yards?, nah, it's not that far. 25 yards? Hmmm, it's further than that. This really helps when you find yourself starting to get frustrated.

Dagnammit, I got off the topic again. But that's ok, I can redeem myself.

Carbon arrows rock!

Fall-away rests will work great if you can get them tuned so they get out of the way before your fletching gets there. The boys at Spott-Hogg have examined many fall-aways under their high-speed camera and found many of them don't, at least not without playing with them.

Sheesh!

[troybuz]

Carbon Arrows are much better than they were jsut a few years ago. I can remember buying my first set in 1978...they were called Graflex Arrows, and were truely crap...the new generation are strong, and do not fracture easily (the true weekness of the earlier arrows.
I have only used the Muzzy Fall Away Rest....and I love it. It seems to be the most user friendly for "Hunting".
I must weigh in on strings also. Winners Choice are made in John Day, Oregon. They are top notch, pre stretched, counter twisted, and equal to or better than the Zebra (which I alo think is a good string)